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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Author
Shock
Interim Industries
#1481 - 2013-06-17 11:15:24 UTC
CCP makes the mistake of forgetting that 'exploration' should be a heavily player-skill dependent profession.

Adding more and more convenience, thoroughly kills off any value of player skill.
Alvatore DiMarco
Capricious Endeavours Ltd
#1482 - 2013-06-17 14:57:11 UTC
I've been saying for quite a while now that "Exploration" is a misnomer and what we do should be called "Treasure Hunting".

Anyway..

Probe scanning was already ridiculously easy and didn't require much in the way of player skill. Removing the requirement that you fight against the UI in order to do it simply reveals the true easiness for everyone to see.

Space Wanderer
#1483 - 2013-06-17 15:01:09 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
Probe scanning was already ridiculously easy and didn't require much in the way of player skill. Removing the requirement that you fight against the UI in order to do it simply reveals the true easiness for everyone to see.


Gotta agree with that. I have been saying that since Apochrypha beta....
Shock
Interim Industries
#1484 - 2013-06-17 15:26:53 UTC
Alvatore DiMarco wrote:
I've been saying for quite a while now that "Exploration" is a misnomer and what we do should be called "Treasure Hunting".

Anyway..

Probe scanning was already ridiculously easy and didn't require much in the way of player skill. Removing the requirement that you fight against the UI in order to do it simply reveals the true easiness for everyone to see.



However, playerskill isn't just whether or not a player can perform a task, but also how efficient. Efficiency meant a lot for bot exploration and combat probing. Now there is hardly any difference anymore.
Thenoran
Tranquility Industries
#1485 - 2013-07-08 20:55:10 UTC
As much as I do like the shiny new UI and how it is all presented, it is just too easy.
Exploration can no longer be called a profession if everyone and their dog can do it with 0 time or skill invested into it.

Hell, I remember the original exploration system before Apocrypha/Trinity with Magnetometric/Ladar/Radar/Gravimetric probes with various radiuses in Quest probes and Sift probes.
You would spend literal HOURS tracking down a hard Gravimetric site (and in those days, I did).
Sure it was painstackingly hard but every skill level put into exploration was worth it and if you finally found that site, you'd often be the only one for hours.
Patience was somewhat of a required skill back then.

Now granted, that exploration system was archaic at best and even getting a signature at all was chance based and each scan took several minutes (each level of an 8x skill removed a minute or so, starting at 10 minutes with a regular launcher).
On top of that, you had SEPARATE probes for each site type (Magnetometric/Ladar/Radar/Gravimetric) and SEPARATE probes for each radius (which was 0.5 AU, 1 AU, 2 AU and 4 AU if I recall), you also could not get your probes back so you had to stack about 10 to 20 of each type and combination for each trip (I usually did about 6-7 systems in a trip).
You had a separate system wide multispectrum probe to see if anything was in the system to begin with.

It was also NOT possible to move your probes. You had to create individually WELL placed bookmarks during warps between celestials to get good coverage of a solar system. Some systems were painfully hard to get good coverage on with your probes as they could not overlap with each other (only their scan ranges could overlap, but Probe A itself could not be within the scan range of Probe B). I still have like 300-400 of such bookmarks gathering dust.

BUT, having a Buzzard with level V skills, scan strength rigs, faction probe launcher and faction probes was actually worth something. You could find sites other players simply did not have enough scan strength for and your scan time was about 3-4 minutes with good skills and equipment.
Large Gravimetric sites were infamous for being hard to find.

As such for me it took usually anywhere between 40 minutes to an hour or two to scan down the harder gravimetric site (not THE hardest though as those could take hours) and most radar/magnetometric sites took 20 to 40 minutes.

And then when you finally found it, bookmarked it, switched ships and got the goodies, IT WAS WORTH IT.
Even then there was competition and seeing another pilot's probes on your scanner meant you had to hurry and this was one area where skill and time invested (such as having good bookmarks) made all the difference.

Right now, having that Buzzard and all that time and effort invested into Exploration feels like a complete and total waste.
Anyone can grab a Gnosis, fit a Probe Launcher with just lvl I - III skills and find nearly anything.
And then they can do that site with that same ship, with the same lvl I - III skills and run it all just like that.
Only combat sites could provide a combat challenge depending on its level (but you've already found it).

If there was a clear distinction between easy sites and hard sites, I would've been completely fine with all of that.
The easy sites for the newer 'explorers' (cant really call them that yet) and the harder sites for those who actually put time and effort into it.

The harder sites should simply have a minimum amount of accuracy and scan strength required before you can narrow them down. If a new player cant get 100% on a site, have Aura give them a message stating they'll have to invest into exploration skills if they want to narrow that sucker down.

And Cosmic Anomalies should still require SOME effort.
You are providing those same Large Gravimetric sites to miners with 0 exploration skills for FREE.
They literally don't even need a Probe Launcher or need to have touched this new 'Exploration' of yours.
If I tell you there is a 100m3 gold cube in an alley somewhere, you can hardly call it 'exploring' if you then go there and claim the damn thing. If it were buried into the ground for half a mile and you had to scan it down from scratch, then it is called exploring.
The new scanning overlay should only appear if you have a Probe Launcher fitted, how is it Exploration without scanning?

And honestly, add some really hard to find sites that require a lot of scan strength.
I know it may come over as elitist or whatever but I really do miss the old feeling that Exploration was unique and not for every player. Not everyone did it, not everyone wanted to do it and not everyone had the patience for it.
Deciding to invest into it was a decision I made because I liked doing something different that wasn't mining or shooting rats in a lvl 4 mission for the unteenth time.

It could reward you with a nice faction item in the best case, or just some random loot and scenery in the worst case.
It was a lottery but one where the odds were decent enough that you'd keep trying.
Back then it was a bit underdeveloped and I once went so far to spend about nine hours scanning down a Large Gravimetric site. I did eventually find it and despite several probes from other explorers over the following three days, no one else ever scanned it down which did feel pretty nice at the time.

Again, I have no problem making Exploration more available for newer players, but right now...there is no Exploration.
There is fitting a Probe Launcher to your [any ship] and you're all set.

For easy to find stuff that's acceptable, but I really have to ask you guys; What is my Buzzard with lvl V exploration skills and faction launcher + probes worth at the moment? Did I waste time training that Astrometric (8x) skill to level V? Would I be better off just folding and getting a Gnosis myself and leave my Buzzard purely to finding ships?
Theminster
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1486 - 2013-07-11 16:14:27 UTC
That last post was very well written and thats the probing system I miss BADLY, I to remember that era and trained everything to lvl5 which is now a total waste but CCP dont really care about that because they have had my cash already for all that time I seemed to have wasted.

Balder Verdandi
Wormhole Sterilization Crew
#1487 - 2013-08-06 11:18:01 UTC
Looking over these posts, I have to agree with the two before mine.

With these changes, it's almost as if CCP wants us to get away from single player altogether and shift Eve strictly into "MMO mode" only ..... or idiot proof scanning, just depends on the way you look at it.


Which is sad ...... since there are some things in the game that are truly single player only or justified having your skills maxed out.

Temba Ronin
#1488 - 2013-08-24 17:27:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Temba Ronin
Balder Verdandi wrote:
Looking over these posts, I have to agree with the two before mine.

With these changes, it's almost as if CCP wants us to get away from single player altogether and shift Eve strictly into "MMO mode" only ..... or idiot proof scanning, just depends on the way you look at it.


Which is sad ...... since there are some things in the game that are truly single player only or justified having your skills maxed out.



I think you have hit the nail on the head here, CCP so despises single player mode they do all that is possible to stomp it out whenever it rears it's ugly head.

Without realizing it they are devaluing specialists within corp structures, the "Solo" player who had the maxed out skills to scan down the best sites so the other specialists in mining or combat could then sweep in and gather the goodies is being disenfranchised.

The path of EVE seems to have been in the past, if you wanted more rewards you needed to take greater risks and train better skills to better equip your clone and ships. You could only train so many things so fast so naturally you sought out other like minded players to help find and or gather/ make the stuff you all wanted.

One on one recruitment use to start with offering fleet mining boosts to other miners in the same highsec system you were mining in, or sharing scan info about DED complexes with other pilots you saw running sites while you were. Solo play leads to team play because each player feels they are bringing something of value to the table. Streamlining aka dumbing down everything undermines this. I hope CCP takes this into consideration.

The Best Ship In EVE Online Is "Friendship", Power To The Players!

Flashrain
Dragon.
Pandemic Horde
#1489 - 2013-08-28 00:10:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Flashrain
If not this iteration, then next.


Fleet Intel Skills

Short description:
These skills allow scan data to propagate across the entire squad/wing/fleet, encouraging team work and multiple scan probe pilots working together.

Long description:
Advances in probe scanning technology allow portions of scan data to update across allied vessels. More accurate data now automatically flow to the scanning window of approved capsuleers in your fleet. Fleet commanders can now finallly track opposing fleet movements in his (or her) solar system map. Multiple scan probe feeds from different pilots now automatically combine into a single data presentation in your scan window. Two or more scan probe pilots are now much more effective as a scout/hunting team.



  • Skill scan probe pilots are still required to initiate the scan data.

  • Multiple scan probe feeds will update using color coded schema based on accuracy (red spheres > orange spheres> yellow spheres > green dots).

    Multiple scan probe feeds will update using transparency coded overlay schema based on how old the scan data is (barely visible>translucent>opaque > solid)


This skill set may have two branches:
1. Skill affects data integrity - Initially 50% of data gets transmitted. A scan result of 100% solid green dot will show as translucent orange spheres on the receiver. At level 5, 100% of data gets transmitted. The receiver will see exactly what the scan probe pilot sees.

2. Skill affects data bandwidth - As level increases, queue length increases up geometrically at 1/5/10/20/40 ; 50/100/200/400. You can add entire squads /wings to the CC queue via drag and drop.

This feature can be turned off with one button within the scan window if you suspect spies within the ranks.
Altrue
Exploration Frontier inc
Tactical-Retreat
#1490 - 2013-08-28 08:18:34 UTC
Flashrain wrote:
If not this iteration, then next.


Fleet Intel Skills

Short description:
These skills allow scan data to propagate across the entire squad/wing/fleet, encouraging team work and multiple scan probe pilots working together.

Long description:
Advances in probe scanning technology allow portions of scan data to update across allied vessels. More accurate data now automatically flow to the scanning window of approved capsuleers in your fleet. Fleet commanders can now finallly track opposing fleet movements in his (or her) solar system map. Multiple scan probe feeds from different pilots now automatically combine into a single data presentation in your scan window. Two or more scan probe pilots are now much more effective as a scout/hunting team.



  • Skill scan probe pilots are still required to initiate the scan data.

  • Multiple scan probe feeds will update using color coded schema based on accuracy (red spheres > orange spheres> yellow spheres > green dots).

    Multiple scan probe feeds will update using transparency coded overlay schema based on how old the scan data is (barely visible>translucent>opaque > solid)


This skill set may have two branches:
1. Skill affects data integrity - Initially 50% of data gets transmitted. A scan result of 100% solid green dot will show as translucent orange spheres on the receiver. At level 5, 100% of data gets transmitted. The receiver will see exactly what the scan probe pilot sees.

2. Skill affects data bandwidth - As level increases, queue length increases up geometrically at 1/5/10/20/40 ; 50/100/200/400. You can add entire squads /wings to the CC queue via drag and drop.

This feature can be turned off with one button within the scan window if you suspect spies within the ranks.


I'm pretty sure you should post this into the Feature Ideas but... wow that's a very nice idea !

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