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[Odyssey Feedback Request] Team Super Friends - Probe Scanning and You

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Author
Inepsa1987
#1081 - 2013-05-17 03:57:15 UTC
Why are you forcing 8 probes? Is there a new technical limitation? What about all those pilots that carry only 5 probes with them, what do they do on release?

Probes insta returning is dumb, losing your probes should be a lesson learned. Why are you even changing this?

On the flip side I like the formations, well the pinpoint one



Spaceship Pilot.

Domanique Altares
Rifterlings
#1082 - 2013-05-17 05:26:16 UTC
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:

Nonsense. The best probers in this game scan with 8 probes in a single formation.


Really. Who might they be?

I'll await your list of probing superstars.


Pretty much every serious Wormhole pilot and quite a few combat scanners. The idea with 8 probes is to both scan the current site AND search for the next site at the same time.


I don't think you read what he said closely enough before agreeing with it.

I use 8 probes on my scanning alt in two groups of four to do exactly what you're talking about.

He says 'all the best' use 8, but only in a single formation, IE, just like it is right now on SiSi.
Zeradn
Last Cartographers of Abyss
#1083 - 2013-05-17 05:37:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Zeradn
It seems a lot of the people who were whining here were doing so without actually testing in SiSi. I welcome the skill changes. Now, we don't have to train Range-finding or pinpointing to 5. If we are ready to lose 5% in scan deviation and probe strength, we can leave those at 4 and save nearly 50 days of training (This will irritate some guys who already did it). Add to that the new T1 scanning modules, and you will be probing down 1% signal strength sites in a Drake.

The new system does make probing unbelievably easier and faster. If you use the scanner overlay with the new instant probe formations, you can probe down a signal some 20 mouse clicks faster. It does take some monotony out of probing some 20 systems in a row for a good site on a bad day. On a good day, you will be left smiling without realizing it while you probe down sites within half a minute of it spawning. As this makes things easier for newbies also, the veterans will naturally grudge it. And all this talk of 'This is EVE' is a natural outburst from them.

I support completely the demand for the feature where only a single probe is launched when you click the launcher manually. Also all the probes launched thus should be centrally placed overlapping each other. This will additionally help those who want custom probe formations.

If the mini-game is not improved before Odyssey launch on TQ (I expect it would be), a lot of us will have to give up on those sites. The new loot spew system up now on SiSi is impossibly frustrating. Those who have tried it will know what I am talking about. If they are planning to completely remove the triggered NPC spawns at these sites or limit those to frigs or destroyers, we could use frigs ourselves to make grabbing those spews more easier. But without reducing the collision level, everything becomes frustratingly hopeless (Also, you are inside one of those structures - hostile pops up in D-Scan - you try to align to celestial/safe - you realize you can't due to collidable objects - you frantically try to get out of it to align - hostile lands on grid, points you and pop you).
Octoven
Stellar Production
#1084 - 2013-05-17 08:40:28 UTC
Zeradn wrote:
It seems a lot of the people who were whining here were doing so without actually testing in SiSi. I welcome the skill changes. Now, we don't have to train Range-finding or pinpointing to 5. If we are ready to lose 5% in scan deviation and probe strength, we can leave those at 4 and save nearly 50 days of training (This will irritate some guys who already did it). Add to that the new T1 scanning modules, and you will be probing down 1% signal strength sites in a Drake.

The new system does make probing unbelievably easier and faster. If you use the scanner overlay with the new instant probe formations, you can probe down a signal some 20 mouse clicks faster. It does take some monotony out of probing some 20 systems in a row for a good site on a bad day. On a good day, you will be left smiling without realizing it while you probe down sites within half a minute of it spawning. As this makes things easier for newbies also, the veterans will naturally grudge it. And all this talk of 'This is EVE' is a natural outburst from them.

I support completely the demand for the feature where only a single probe is launched when you click the launcher manually. Also all the probes launched thus should be centrally placed overlapping each other. This will additionally help those who want custom probe formations.

If the mini-game is not improved before Odyssey launch on TQ (I expect it would be), a lot of us will have to give up on those sites. The new loot spew system up now on SiSi is impossibly frustrating. Those who have tried it will know what I am talking about. If they are planning to completely remove the triggered NPC spawns at these sites or limit those to frigs or destroyers, we could use frigs ourselves to make grabbing those spews more easier. But without reducing the collision level, everything becomes frustratingly hopeless (Also, you are inside one of those structures - hostile pops up in D-Scan - you try to align to celestial/safe - you realize you can't due to collidable objects - you frantically try to get out of it to align - hostile lands on grid, points you and pop you).


You still get a benefit to training them to 5, you need each specific skill to lvl 5 in order to fit the T2 scanning upgrade that accompanies it. EX: You need Rangefinding to 5 in orfer to fit a T2 Rangefinding Array
Terrorfrodo
Interbus Universal
#1085 - 2013-05-17 08:46:41 UTC
Domanique Altares wrote:


I don't think you read what he said closely enough before agreeing with it.

I use 8 probes on my scanning alt in two groups of four to do exactly what you're talking about.

He says 'all the best' use 8, but only in a single formation, IE, just like it is right now on SiSi.

If you have two separate formations of four, you have to move them separately. You cannot even use the alt/shift key to move them all together. Which means you are horribly slow. Try for yourself and stop-clock the time you spend between scans on repositioning your probes. If it's more than five seconds maximum, you are really bad, mhkay? But please, keep on thinking that you are doing it right :)

.

Caitlyn Tufy
Perkone
Caldari State
#1086 - 2013-05-17 09:46:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Caitlyn Tufy
Domanique Altares wrote:
Caitlyn Tufy wrote:
Domanique Altares wrote:
Terrorfrodo wrote:

Nonsense. The best probers in this game scan with 8 probes in a single formation.


Really. Who might they be?

I'll await your list of probing superstars.


Pretty much every serious Wormhole pilot and quite a few combat scanners. The idea with 8 probes is to both scan the current site AND search for the next site at the same time.


I don't think you read what he said closely enough before agreeing with it.

I use 8 probes on my scanning alt in two groups of four to do exactly what you're talking about.

He says 'all the best' use 8, but only in a single formation, IE, just like it is right now on SiSi.


Actually, I consider that one formation. Two groups of four, but acting as one. Two formations would be 2 x 4 probes scanning two sites at once.

Anyway, tested the scanning a bit and I have to say, the current (8 probe) formations are HORRIBLE. I honestly just wish we'd get the old system back. Or at the very least, the probes should launch next to the ship and only move in a formation if the pilot chooses it explicitly. As it stands, it's a royal pain in the behind to get them ordered again.
Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1087 - 2013-05-17 09:58:58 UTC
Since you need a minimum of 4 probes to scan anything down (unless that's changed) perhaps it would be better if clicking on the probe launcher launched 4 probes, and additional clicks launching another 2 probes?
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1088 - 2013-05-17 10:17:52 UTC
Old launch system + option to use the new formations is what pretty much everyone wants.

Some things still need to be fixed, mainly:
Ignoring one scan result causes all the other scan results to be highlighted, which means that if you right click and ignore on another scan result it ends up ignoring everything in the list. What's worse is that to undo this you have to show everything, clearing the ignore list, meaning you have to start all over again.

How to fix: After ignoring a scan result, nothing should be highlighted. If possible add some sort of undo feature.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1089 - 2013-05-17 10:20:18 UTC
Durzel wrote:
Since you need a minimum of 4 probes to scan anything down (unless that's changed) perhaps it would be better if clicking on the probe launcher launched 4 probes, and additional clicks launching another 2 probes?



Lots of people use single probes all the time, you just live in over used/exploited areas of the universe.

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....

Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#1090 - 2013-05-17 10:40:02 UTC
Durzel wrote:
Since you need a minimum of 4 probes to scan anything down (unless that's changed) perhaps it would be better if clicking on the probe launcher launched 4 probes, and additional clicks launching another 2 probes?


^This

Remove preformed layouts, and allow for multiple probe launches. It's a good middle ground that reduces the amount of clicking, while not dumbing down probing in the process.

Which the "we want to reduce clicking" argument is comical to say the least. The changes seem to be geared towards PVE, which they remove clicking in probing, but then add a minigame that's all clicking and a pinata that's even more clicking. :CCPlogic:

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1091 - 2013-05-17 10:54:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Brainless Bimbo
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Durzel wrote:
Since you need a minimum of 4 probes to scan anything down (unless that's changed) perhaps it would be better if clicking on the probe launcher launched 4 probes, and additional clicks launching another 2 probes?


^This

Remove preformed layouts, and allow for multiple probe launches. It's a good middle ground that reduces the amount of clicking, while not dumbing down probing in the process.

Which the "we want to reduce clicking" argument is comical to say the least. The changes seem to be geared towards PVE, which they remove clicking in probing, but then add a minigame that's all clicking and a pinata that's even more clicking. :CCPlogic:

let em keep the pin point layout, its useful and any rookie will be able to get a 100% hit in 3 moves, the spread is an abortion as is the reversion to set default scan sizes.

The single probe launch is necessary for many tasks if you live way out where little probing goes on, its a way to get rid of what you bookmarked the day before and with out having to re-find the thing.

i suggested earlier, make all Core probes launch as a set of 8 a.k.a. the SUPER PROBE and increase mass of the set of 8 to to equal 1 Combat probe with single launch.

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....

Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#1092 - 2013-05-17 11:03:24 UTC
The pinpoint layout is the one I have the most issue with. The whole idea that " a rookie can get it in 3 moves" is proof that it is bad. It makes probing way to easy, to where newbies who DO get into it will find it boring and move on, it goes both ways.

Doing single probe launches was something I missed, which I agree with completely. Switch the formations buttons to 2x and 4x and clicking on the launcher will launch 1 probe.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Durzel
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1093 - 2013-05-17 11:10:50 UTC
Brainless Bimbo wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
Durzel wrote:
Since you need a minimum of 4 probes to scan anything down (unless that's changed) perhaps it would be better if clicking on the probe launcher launched 4 probes, and additional clicks launching another 2 probes?


^This

Remove preformed layouts, and allow for multiple probe launches. It's a good middle ground that reduces the amount of clicking, while not dumbing down probing in the process.

Which the "we want to reduce clicking" argument is comical to say the least. The changes seem to be geared towards PVE, which they remove clicking in probing, but then add a minigame that's all clicking and a pinata that's even more clicking. :CCPlogic:

let em keep the pin point layout, its useful and any rookie will be able to get a 100% hit in 3 moves, the spread is an abortion as is the reversion to set default scan sizes.

The single probe launch is necessary for many tasks if you live way out where little probing goes on, its a way to get rid of what you bookmarked the day before and with out having to re-find the thing.

i suggested earlier, make all Core probes launch as a set of 8 a.k.a. the SUPER PROBE and increase mass of the set of 8 to to equal 1 Combat probe with single launch.

If the sig IDs have changed how are you going to know to a certainty which sigs are which?

I don't know about other wormhole corps but we update sig IDs when they change, so that new signatures are obvious to anyone who is scanning at any time, without them having had to have scanned down everything to 100%.

I figured single probe launches were only useful for what is going to be defunct - scanning the whole system with DSP or whatever to know the strengths of all the sigs in the system? (defunct because DSPs are going, and auto-scanner replicates seeing all sigs)
James Amril-Kesh
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#1094 - 2013-05-17 11:14:23 UTC
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
The pinpoint layout is the one I have the most issue with. The whole idea that " a rookie can get it in 3 moves" is proof that it is bad.

Except that that's absolutely just rhetoric and nothing else.
I'm not terribly faster with this new system than I was with the old one. Granted then I was using 5 probes and now I'm using 8, but the only real difference in time comes from the reduction of clicks. I was a very slow prober before and I still am a slow prober. And I usually don't get it in 3 moves. It typically takes me at least 6.

Enjoying the rain today? ;)

Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#1095 - 2013-05-17 11:20:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Brooks Puuntai
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
The pinpoint layout is the one I have the most issue with. The whole idea that " a rookie can get it in 3 moves" is proof that it is bad.

Except that that's absolutely just rhetoric and nothing else.
I'm not terribly faster with this new system than I was with the old one. Granted then I was using 5 probes and now I'm using 8, but the only real difference in time comes from the reduction of clicks. I was a very slow prober before and I still am a slow prober. And I usually don't get it in 3 moves. It typically takes me at least 6.


Regardless of your speed, it still takes what little thought process out of probing. To where it's move cluster over dot, shrink, shrink, hit. While setting up probes may seem tedious to some, it was really the only "challenge" that existed in probing.

Also don't be afraid to jump sizes, especially if you are past 15-20% str.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden

Unkind Omen
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#1096 - 2013-05-17 11:21:53 UTC
The 8 probes launch is excellent.

Is it possible to make the formation for 8 probes looking like two crosses on top of each other forming a cube where each of the probes is the vertex of that cube? I ask this because it looks like a best 8-probe formation for pinpointing as it allows to cover the maximal area by at least 4 probes which is necessary to pinpointing signature. And it is also the only formation that would form at least a 70.5 degree angle for every pair of probes if the target is located directly in the middle point of that cube which is necessary to achieve the maximal signal strength as soon as you reached the minimal probe radius limit.
Brainless Bimbo
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1097 - 2013-05-17 13:36:24 UTC
James Amril-Kesh wrote:
Brooks Puuntai wrote:
The pinpoint layout is the one I have the most issue with. The whole idea that " a rookie can get it in 3 moves" is proof that it is bad.

Except that that's absolutely just rhetoric and nothing else.
I'm not terribly faster with this new system than I was with the old one. Granted then I was using 5 probes and now I'm using 8, but the only real difference in time comes from the reduction of clicks. I was a very slow prober before and I still am a slow prober. And I usually don't get it in 3 moves. It typically takes me at least 6.


Its just experience, once you get a dot, your made basically

already dead, just haven´t fallen over yet....

Morcam
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1098 - 2013-05-17 13:43:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Morcam
My most-important reaction is that the new sites seem a bit silly. I'm not a big fan of the minigames of clicking through a little grid or clicking on all the little containers...

I'm also not so sure how I feel about the whole "all sites + their strengths when you enter system". It seems like all the best sites will be done by anyone who enters the system, clicks on it randomly, and looks at it. You should at least need to launch a deep-space probe or something. Works great for anoms though! That plus formations makes probing so insanely easy it's not even an action anymore, just a few clicks to find the best sites in the game. There's no skill at all in moving the probes into any sort of formation, it's basically done for you. Now, it's all about having the right ship with the right fittings.

Considering how much of a pain in the ass moving probes is, I never though I'd say that, but I don't think this was the right approach so far. Still, I could be convinced.

My suggestions:

1. Just remove signatures and their strengths from the system scanner by default. Add some new sort of compromise between this (which is too easy) and deep space probes (which were a bit on the strange/unintended side). Keep anoms, that's awesome!

2. Re-think probe formations. They're nice, but probing is just absurdly easy now, and there's no factor of player skill, only the ship you're flying.

Honestly, the entire probing system wasn't great before, but I don't think this really helped. You need to add some more factors into the probing process, right now it's just intersecting spheres.
Kitanga
Lowsec Border Marshals
#1099 - 2013-05-17 14:20:17 UTC
did we all forget about the Deep Space Probe removal?

CCP Paradox - please keep DSP in the game, and allow the launch of one.

or expand the range of Combats(and Cores) to 256 to make up for the loss
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#1100 - 2013-05-17 14:34:32 UTC
Kitanga wrote:
did we all forget about the Deep Space Probe removal?

CCP Paradox - please keep DSP in the game, and allow the launch of one.

or expand the range of Combats(and Cores) to 256 to make up for the loss


I doubt they will revert that change. Though they could remove Sigs from the overlay and have them show on DSP(but randomize the str) and have DSP for ships and sigs, and leave the overlay for anomalies and whatever the new grav sites are called.

CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden