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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

First post
Author
Theia Matova
Dominance Theory
#181 - 2013-04-08 18:06:05 UTC
Please do not take away the launcher slots!!! This gives much needed flexibility and interesting ship fits!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#182 - 2013-04-08 18:06:17 UTC
Grendell wrote:

Last 5 days is fairly insignificant when you look at the overall stats over the years: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

This is a current snap shot of pvp use, when you go back for the stats every month for the last year, it all has one thing in common. Gallente is dead last.


This is another one of those top line metrics that can't be trusted for overall game tuning. It has the same problems as above, except instead of looking at raw damage you're looking at kills (an improvement, at least). We still haven't broken it out by location, timezone, security status, weapon type, or fleet size. Another problem with this is particular site is that it's exceptionally deceptive due to the multiplicative effect of how it counts fleet kills.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Imawuss
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#183 - 2013-04-08 18:06:45 UTC
WOW... way to **** the Megathron. Also the Hyperion is lacking in PG and cap recharge adding a low slot helps with the tank but it is still an inferior ship. So instead of fixing two BS's that are good you guys give us another mediocre Hyperion and completely nullify the Megathron for anything but a shield tank.

The Dominx.. well nice changes. This ship is now a pure pve boat, and just a mini slowcat I'm cool with that i guess.
MinutemanKirk
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2013-04-08 18:06:49 UTC
I think that, while the intent of the changes are heartfelt and decent, how they were executed leaves something to be desired. Before going into details I would like to say that to my knowledge, this is the first time since Inferno that an armor tanked ship has been specifically suggested in a rebalance thread to be flown as a shield ship. While there is nothing wrong with suggesting it from an after the fact "here's a setup that could work" style, you have suggested it in the initial core design concept. You made yourself famous, in part, by not sticking with whatever the ship was "designed" to do and making your own unique setups based on creativity in the fitting. What astounds me the most is that you are giving it the same mid-low slot layout as the Hyperion while at the same time changing the Hyp by saying that it isn't good enough at brawling, how then do you expect the Mega to do the same thing WITHOUT a rep bonus? My suggesting would be to leave the 7th slot low and let players make up their own minds in it's current form when.

Hyperion:
This change will work wonders with the single rep versions by granting resists and room for more DPS. Triple rep version is totally out and dual rep version will be unlikely with out the extra mid I fear. As has been also mentioned, I don't think it will find much use in fleets without either having the rep bonus be for both received and local reps while also not having a turret bonus that is useful for range (optimal, tracking, falloff, etc). For changes, I would suggest either a larger rep bonus (assuming that most of the changes stay as they are) or granting a vastly increased cap and cap recharge. I think that would go a long way towards helping with all of the "need more boosters" concerns.

Mega:
As expressed above I think the current line of thinking is terrible. You want to give it more mids for dual propping or shield tanking but only give it 25 more CPU. You want to make it a larger version of the Talos but only give a minor speed bonus and no mass reduction. I do like the ROF bonus, but without addressing the above concerns, I doubt it will do much good.

Dominix:
Once again my beloved drone boats are getting "buff...NERFED!" One of the few redeeming qualities of the dominix was flexibility, you could have a viable blaster focused, drones focused or even a neut focused, ship. With the changes, I like how you want to make the drone race a pure drone battleship. That said, I think you should also give your preliminary thoughts on the sentry changes since you are expressly stating that is how you think they would be viable as a fleet ship. I would also like to point out that because sentries are so vulnerable to a firewall BS, the ability to completely remove a fleets DPS should be countered by said ship having something to fall back on, which ironically, you HAVE given to the Amarr: a neut bonus. Even if the geddon loses all it's drones it can still be useful in the fleet. Without a hybrid bonus, and assuming I'm fitting the domi for drones (i.e. drone damage augmentors, drone range, etc.) then I will likely be missing a turret and have no magstabs or anything else with which to boost my turret potential. Thus my turret damage will be anemic at best, irrelevant at worst.
My thoughts to fix this, currently without knowing the sentry rebalance thoughts, would be to either A: make the domi a PURE drone boat; remove the turrets, give it a larger damage bonus, give it a larger drone bay and throw in another low and mid slot for tankability or B: give it another useful role in fleet warfare. EWAR (could be anything from ECM to point range), remote assistance via reps or some other fleet bonus, SOMETHING to give it something to do when the inevitable firewall kill off all the drones. In no other weapons system can a foe specifically eliminate your DPS without requiring warfare on your ship. As such, if you want to make this, as stated, a sentry/drone fleet doctrine, there needs to be something giving it a fair shot at doing so.
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
#185 - 2013-04-08 18:08:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Grendell
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed.


Care to shed any light?


What I believe he meant was, that a 5 day average means nothing. When the overall average over the years shows the opposite.

To give you an example: In the last week I've drank roughly 1 beer a day. Every week before this week I've drank about 10 beers a day. So given your selective average snap shot, when I go to my doctor and he asks me how much beer do I consume in a week. Do I tell him I average about 1 beer a day, or do I give him the more accurate average of 10 beers a day?

See what I'm saying?Blink

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Ryuce
#186 - 2013-04-08 18:10:47 UTC
Amantus wrote:
in this thread: a bunch of nerds who hate and fear change

Unlike an autistic nerd like you? Big smile
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#187 - 2013-04-08 18:15:28 UTC
Grendell wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed.


Care to shed any light?


What I believe he meant was, that a 5 day average means nothing. When the overall average over the years shows the opposite.

To give you an example: In the last week I've drank roughly 1 beer a day. Every week before this week I've drank about 10 beers a day. So given your selective average snap shot, when I go to my doctor and he asks me how much beer do I consume in a week. Do I tell him I average about 1 beer a day, or do I give him the more accurate average of 10 beers a day?


I do understand some statistics... I understood the comment as meaning that I had guessed wrongly about where all the damage is coming from.

For further sake of argument - Hyp is number 3 for pvp damage over the last 150 days. I know how many beers you drink, trust me!

@ccp_rise

Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#188 - 2013-04-08 18:15:38 UTC
Amantus wrote:
in this thread: a bunch of nerds who hate and fear change



Sorry bro but fear of change is =/= to fear of poorly thought out balance changes produced by incompetent grey matter.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
#189 - 2013-04-08 18:21:43 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Grendell wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed.


Care to shed any light?


What I believe he meant was, that a 5 day average means nothing. When the overall average over the years shows the opposite.

To give you an example: In the last week I've drank roughly 1 beer a day. Every week before this week I've drank about 10 beers a day. So given your selective average snap shot, when I go to my doctor and he asks me how much beer do I consume in a week. Do I tell him I average about 1 beer a day, or do I give him the more accurate average of 10 beers a day?


I do understand some statistics... I understood the comment as meaning that I had guessed wrongly about where all the damage is coming from.

For further sake of argument - Hyp is number 3 for pvp damage over the last 150 days. I know how many beers you drink, trust me!


And over the last 150 days, how many were shield fitted?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#190 - 2013-04-08 18:23:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
CCP Rise wrote:

I do understand some statistics... I understood the comment as meaning that I had guessed wrongly about where all the damage is coming from.

For further sake of argument - Hyp is number 3 for pvp damage over the last 150 days. I know how many beers you drink, trust me!


Hey Rise,

Ok, that's great. Again, top line metrics are somewhere between misleading and dangerously misleading. Have you broken this down into regions, sec statuses, fleet sizes, or any other kinds of metrics? Have you excluded damage that didn't result in a kill? Have you excluded structures?

-Liang

Ed: BTW, I don't just "understand SOME statistics". I have a *deep* understanding of game analytics - and I am offering you professional game analytics advice. Feel free to evemail me (or email me) if you want to make the discussion more private. But seriously. Top line metrics are bad for your health.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Baldyface Akiga
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#191 - 2013-04-08 18:23:14 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Grendell wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed.


Care to shed any light?


What I believe he meant was, that a 5 day average means nothing. When the overall average over the years shows the opposite.

To give you an example: In the last week I've drank roughly 1 beer a day. Every week before this week I've drank about 10 beers a day. So given your selective average snap shot, when I go to my doctor and he asks me how much beer do I consume in a week. Do I tell him I average about 1 beer a day, or do I give him the more accurate average of 10 beers a day?


I do understand some statistics... I understood the comment as meaning that I had guessed wrongly about where all the damage is coming from.

For further sake of argument - Hyp is number 3 for pvp damage over the last 150 days. I know how many beers you drink, trust me!


The only way I can imagine such a token ship, "Ohhh look a Hyperion!", being number three in pvp damage over the last 150 days, is if you have all the CONCORD ships accidentally tied into the Hyperion stats.
AlexKent
4S Corporation
Goonswarm Federation
#192 - 2013-04-08 18:24:52 UTC
For the love of god, please get rid of the active armor rep bonus on the hyperion already, it is marginally used in very specific situations and is sub-par with all the other armor tanked ships. It's a great looking ship i always wanted to fly, give it a proper bonus.

Also, not only you did not fix the hyperion, now you ****** the megathron aswell. Make at least one ship on the gallente line-up viable for large fleets. If you started adding mids, you might just aswell add another so we can properly shield tank it.

As for the Domi, who in his right mind would fly a potato when one of the best looking ships in game does exactly the same thing (geddon).

You guys at CCP really hate gallente don't you?
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#193 - 2013-04-08 18:25:40 UTC
Yeah i really cant see how hyperions could be doing more damage in pvp than say, nagas, rokhs, archons, etc.
Tsia
Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#194 - 2013-04-08 18:26:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Tsia
As a huge Megathron enthusiast, I'm....



...not sure how I feel about this! I like the idea that you're giving more ships the ability to use MJD, as the Megathron sorely lost out on that due to the 'necessary' mids (Point, web, mwd cap booster) along with the fact it's more mobile. I'll be interested to see how it actually goes with armour honeycombing etc.

I don't think it'll help it out in big fleet doctrines, but then not every ship SHOULD be made to fit big fleet doctrines. Got to say though, losing that 7th low is going to hurt, as the lower drone DPS combined with the removal of a (likely) damage mod will bring it's damage down, and that's where the Megathron shone. The wonderful glass canon.

I'd flat out say that given the 125 drone bay/bandwidth back, this would be a fantastic ship for solo and small gang. Maybe even 150, so you can carry a round of lights, too. Remember, it's still paper thin. Oh and to hell with the launcher, nobody should care. ;)


Could be (read: Probably am) wrong, but time will tell! What?
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
#195 - 2013-04-08 18:28:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Grendell
CCP Rise wrote:
Grendell wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed.


Care to shed any light?


What I believe he meant was, that a 5 day average means nothing. When the overall average over the years shows the opposite.

To give you an example: In the last week I've drank roughly 1 beer a day. Every week before this week I've drank about 10 beers a day. So given your selective average snap shot, when I go to my doctor and he asks me how much beer do I consume in a week. Do I tell him I average about 1 beer a day, or do I give him the more accurate average of 10 beers a day?


I do understand some statistics... I understood the comment as meaning that I had guessed wrongly about where all the damage is coming from.

For further sake of argument - Hyp is number 3 for pvp damage over the last 150 days. I know how many beers you drink, trust me!



Well let me put it another way. While statistics are all fun and dandy, they can't be used to paint an accurate picture of the situation. You can sue statistics to help, but they can't be the end all fact to push an issue in any given direction. To get a clear picture of the situation you have to follow what people are using as the norm.

You may not have the luxury as a developer to enjoy as much pvp experience as some of us players do. I personally have the luxury to be apart of a few alliances and have been for years. There has never been a single doctrine or fleet setup in any of them that included the Megathron for years. In just about every situation there is a better choice. The guys that usually fly it are the ones who can't fly the main choice, or because they just want to be in a ship they find pretty.

You asked what role we wanted for the Megathron? We want our old badass, in your face, punch swinging, beer guzzling, woman harassing, FREEDOM yelling, Pimpthron back. We don't want to be the retarde.d cousin that was brought along out of pitty.


EDIT: Since when did you guys filter out the word "Retarde.d" Shocked

◄[♥]►3rd Party Service◄[♥]►

♥ Securing Peace of mind ♥

Karti Aivo
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#196 - 2013-04-08 18:28:54 UTC
You just killed my shield brawling Hyperion :(
Raven Solaris
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#197 - 2013-04-08 18:28:57 UTC
I have no idea what you're trying to do with the Hype and Mega.

The Mega especially, just about every Megathron fit I can think of makes use of all of it's lows.
Garviel Tarrant
Beyond Divinity Inc
Shadow Cartel
#198 - 2013-04-08 18:31:30 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:

I do understand some statistics... I understood the comment as meaning that I had guessed wrongly about where all the damage is coming from.

For further sake of argument - Hyp is number 3 for pvp damage over the last 150 days. I know how many beers you drink, trust me!

Ed: BTW, I don't just "understand SOME statistics". I have a *deep* understanding of game analytics - and I am offering you professional game analytics advice. Feel free to evemail me (or email me) if you want to make the discussion more private. But seriously. Top line metrics are bad for your health.


Rofl wtf?

BYDI recruitment closed-ish

Pinky Denmark
The Cursed Navy
#199 - 2013-04-08 18:33:54 UTC
Good choices - I can't complaint since I voiced the exact same opinions about slot layouts and bonus in the recent past.
The only thing striking me is the Megathron drone bay should be reduced to 100m3 like the band with or we will be spammed with way too many ecm-drones...
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#200 - 2013-04-08 18:34:15 UTC
Grendell wrote:

Well let me put it another way. While statistics are all fun and dandy, they can't be used to paint an accurate picture of the situation. You can sue statistics to help, but they can't be the end all fact to push an issue in any given direction. To get a clear picture of the situation you have to follow what people are using as the norm.

You may not have the luxury as a developer to enjoy as much pvp experience as some of us players do. I personally have the luxury to be apart of a few alliances and have been for years. There has never been a single doctrine or fleet setup in any of them that included the Megathron for years. In just about every situation there is a better choice. The guys that usually fly it are the ones who can't fly the main choice, or because they just want to be in a ship they find pretty.

You asked what role we wanted for the Megathron? We want our old badass, in your face, punch swinging, beer guzzling, woman harassing, FREEDOM yelling, Pimpthron back. We don't want to be the retarde.d cousin that was brought along out of pitty.


I'm pretty sure that CCP Rise is Kil2. Feel free to go watch his PVP experience on his old Youtube channel. I may not agree with him, but do try to give him (and the rest of the CCP team) a break from the "You don't play your own game" stuff. :)

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.