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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

First post
Author
Marxzo Andoun
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#341 - 2013-04-08 22:21:25 UTC
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:
Cambarus wrote:
Here's to the dominix; what was once an astounding ship is now mostly shite.

Seriously, if you want to turn the domi into a pure drone boat, the first step is to give it a way to do damage befitting a battleship with drones. The 800ish DPS tops that you're going to get out of it with gardes is terrible, and if you're not going to use it as a gun/drone hybrid then you'll be better off with the geddon.

Maybe replace the damage bonus with a + drone control bonus? 10 Non-damage bonused drones would give it a reasonable amount of damage (+33% over 5 with a damage bonus, or just a hair over 1k DPS with a full set of gardes + 4 DDAs) while making it FEEL like more of a drone boat, rather than the proposed change that makes it feel like a drone/hybrid mix that just got a damage bonus removed.

EDIT:
I also look forward to what happens when you rebalance the ishtar, because the new domi bonuses really are better suited for it.


Good post about the Domi.


THIS is an exciting idea.

I've seen the fits and read the numbers and understand why this ship's DPS is being nerfed... but really just posting the new stats and glibly saying "we hope you are excited about the changes!" is not good form. Follow up posts by CCP Rise have amounted to, "well there it is, but you can still fit magstabs..."

I have to admit I had more than one urge to ragepost but figured it would be bad form for my first post. I am really hoping you are indeed taking great suggestions like the one above into real consideration after the first pass as you have stated.

Cambarus' suggestion satisfies all of these goals:

+ retains the Gallente's indentity of excelling at drones
+ will not require undoing the work put into Amarr balancing
+ *** gives the Dominix a reason for existing *** -.-

To be fair, I haven't run the numbers but if Cambarus' suggested bonuses still leave the Domi with too much dps, I'd be willing to bet most Gallente pilots would be willing to lose a turret slot or two for this change (especially since they would no longer be bonused). In replacing the drone damage bonus, I believe the drone hp bonus would likely need to remain lest the ships entire offensive capability be taken away with the slightest shift in wind.

CCP please give this idea a serious look!
CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#342 - 2013-04-08 22:22:58 UTC
I must say, you guys do have a theatrical flair.

Look its 10pm and I'm trying to keep caught up on this, but I promise tomorrow we will go back through this Gal lineup and see if we can resolve some of the frustration.

I know I tried to lay out our intentions in the OP, but I want to lay it out again, just to make sure we're on the same page. I understand that many of you here aren't satisfied so we'll go back over it tomorrow and look at our options. In the mean time maybe this will help.

In the Megathron and the Hyperion, we had two ships that more or less shared some space. They were both armor focused blaster brawlers. The mega was armor focused because of its slot layout - but it had increased utility from one extra high slot and a larger drone bay, and also had an easier time applying damage because of the tracking bonus. Then we had the Hyperion which was bonused to look more like a heavy brawler - focused completely on damage and tank, because of having no utility high, less drones, and a tank focused bonus instead of tracking.

In my personal experience, I felt both ships came up short because they didn't play to their strengths enough. The mega seemed like it wanted to be more like a tempest, less concerned with tank, more focused on utility. A heavy tackler, a hit and run ship (MJD), a ship that could move fast and gank if supported. People tended to run light armor tanks (2 plates 2eanms 1dcu 2 mag stab) as the basic setup, but sometimes tried active setups which usually used more lows for tank. The hyp on the other hand always had almost all lows dedicated to tanking because of only having 6, and so its damage struggled to compete (unless it was some kind of shield fit).

The plan here was to fill in both ships' strength. The hyp would provide more power in pure tank and dps by having an extra low for mag stab or TE or resists, and it would sacrifice some utility. The mega would have more utility, again, playing to its strength - and the increased damage from turrets would make up for the lost low somewhat.

I can see many of you don't agree, and thats fine. I want you guys to love these ships so we're going to spend some time going over feedback and see what looks like a good direction to go.

I think if at all possible, we'd like to keep the armor rep bonus on the Hyperion. Its just too late in the ship line to toss out Gallente's signature tank bonus, despite the fact that many of you might want us to.

We are willing to consider many of the suggestions so far. Rolling another bonus into the rep bonus (like rep cap use) could be possible, changing the slot allocation, and adjusting fittings to give it more room are all on the table.

Thanks for the feedback, it won't be ignored.



@ccp_rise

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#343 - 2013-04-08 22:26:25 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
CCP Rise wrote:
People tended to run light armor tanks (2 plates 2eanms 1dcu 2 mag stab)





Thats a pretty standard armor tank on everything.


Also giving the hyp a utility high and 10% damage bonus solves the problem in how you feel about it. It gains a half gun in damage, gains some cap stability and gives it a utility slot
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#344 - 2013-04-08 22:27:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Pattern Clarc
What would happen if:
You swapped the rolls of the mega and hyperion?

I know the Art dept would never let you get away with a 7 high slot hyperion so...

Megathron
7/5/7
Becomes the tanky in your face brawler.

Hyperion
8/4/7
Gets tracking bonus, becomes the fleet ship or agile generic dps machine

Domi
6/6/7
Gets the right number of slots, trading dps for more versatility

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#345 - 2013-04-08 22:31:36 UTC
Please do a side-by-side comparison between the Dominix and Armageddon as well.
Budrick3
Moira.
Villore Accords
#346 - 2013-04-08 22:34:20 UTC
Quote:
Hyperion:

The Hyperion in a tight spot. We can acknowledge that for the moment active armor tanking is struggling to find a place. We know that many of you would be happier to have the Hyperion lose this bonus and pick up something more practical in today's Eve. However, we're committed to helping armor find its place, and so, to keep continuity with the rest of the Gallente line-up, the Hyp will keep its current bonuses.

It will be gaining a low slot (giving up a mid), hopefully making its purpose as a pure brawler more realistic.

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+5% Large Hybrid Turret damage
+7.5% Armor Repair amount

Slot layout: 8H, 4M(-1), 7L(+1); 8 turrets , 0 launchers(-1)
Fittings: 15750 PWG, 600 CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7500 / 8000 / 8500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 7200 / 1250s / 4.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100 / 100
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 485


How the hell is the Hyperion supposed to be an active tanker when you remove a mid slot? What logic was involved in this....

Hyperion = Blaster boat. Means that it needs to close distance fast, which requires a MWD, then placing web / scram on a target. Those are 3 required slots for 99% of galente ships. Now the fact that this ship is an active tanker, it requires cap boosters. 1 Cap booster is not going to cut it on a 8 turret, active tanking ship. What genius thought that was a good idea? Not to mention this ship is god awful at tracking so even when it does close the distance, it cant hit crap. In addition to that, for some reason the megathron can fit a full set of heavy dones, but the third tier class battleship is not able to, and costs quite a bit more.

Seems like CCP is trying to change things just to change things. Fail. Don't mess with the Gallente ships at all except the hyperion. Fix the tracking or something. Holy crap, there just gonna ruin Gallente bs.
Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#347 - 2013-04-08 22:35:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Akirei Scytale
CCP Rise wrote:
I must say, you guys do have a theatrical flair.

Look its 10pm and I'm trying to keep caught up on this, but I promise tomorrow we will go back through this Gal lineup and see if we can resolve some of the frustration.

I know I tried to lay out our intentions in the OP, but I want to lay it out again, just to make sure we're on the same page. I understand that many of you here aren't satisfied so we'll go back over it tomorrow and look at our options. In the mean time maybe this will help.

In the Megathron and the Hyperion, we had two ships that more or less shared some space. They were both armor focused blaster brawlers. The mega was armor focused because of its slot layout - but it had increased utility from one extra high slot and a larger drone bay, and also had an easier time applying damage because of the tracking bonus. Then we had the Hyperion which was bonused to look more like a heavy brawler - focused completely on damage and tank, because of having no utility high, less drones, and a tank focused bonus instead of tracking.

In my personal experience, I felt both ships came up short because they didn't play to their strengths enough. The mega seemed like it wanted to be more like a tempest, less concerned with tank, more focused on utility. A heavy tackler, a hit and run ship (MJD), a ship that could move fast and gank if supported. People tended to run light armor tanks (2 plates 2eanms 1dcu 2 mag stab) as the basic setup, but sometimes tried active setups which usually used more lows for tank. The hyp on the other hand always had almost all lows dedicated to tanking because of only having 6, and so its damage struggled to compete (unless it was some kind of shield fit).

The plan here was to fill in both ships' strength. The hyp would provide more power in pure tank and dps by having an extra low for mag stab or TE or resists, and it would sacrifice some utility. The mega would have more utility, again, playing to its strength - and the increased damage from turrets would make up for the lost low somewhat.

I can see many of you don't agree, and thats fine. I want you guys to love these ships so we're going to spend some time going over feedback and see what looks like a good direction to go.

I think if at all possible, we'd like to keep the armor rep bonus on the Hyperion. Its just too late in the ship line to toss out Gallente's signature tank bonus, despite the fact that many of you might want us to.

We are willing to consider many of the suggestions so far. Rolling another bonus into the rep bonus (like rep cap use) could be possible, changing the slot allocation, and adjusting fittings to give it more room are all on the table.

Thanks for the feedback, it won't be ignored.





Now go plug in every tank you can think of into the Megathron and bear in mind a respectable BS' EHP is around 120k. Hardly anyone uses the Tempest seriously for a reason!

Making an "agile and fast" battleship is all fine and dandy, except the Talos exists and will always fill that role several orders of magnitude more effectively in the Gallente lineup.

The problem here is that a Battleship will never be fast or agile enough for these changes to matter much. All it means is you're putting the Megathron into the slot of "kinda sorta fast for a BS but will pop before it ever reaches blaster range".

The "tier 3" / assault battlecruisers are filling the role you're trying to shoehorn these ships into. Don't. You're just making them into inferior choices when they already had their own niche.
Alticus C Bear
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#348 - 2013-04-08 22:35:33 UTC
Fastest growing thread in a while. Luckily I was at work otherwise my initial reaction would probably have been

Nooooooooooooooooooo!!!!!!!!

For me the battleships are falling into three roles: -

Combat - fleet platform ship
Combat - alternate weapon/utility/e-war ship
Attack Battleship - Faster more appropriate for Solo Small gang

Mega would make a better fleet/combat battleship platform, the rate of fire bonus and the reduced drone bandwidth trade makes this a better fleet platform but still does not have more equivalent turrets than the Talos. Even with six lows and lower EHP it may still be a better fleet platform than the Hype. Personally I would up the EHP, slow it down and give it a 10% damage bonus and drop the drones back even further, keep the seven lows it makes for good buffer tank although I do not hate the 5 mids as the TE nerf makes room for TC more important.

Dominix probably just needed extra fittings and EHP, I do like the bonus change but may have saved that for the Navy version, as long as one version keeps the Hybrid damage bonus I do not mind too much but think keeping the damage bonus on the regular domi would have allowed for better balance between it and a Navy version that was able to fit Larger guns but with less bonus due to better fittings.
Sentry Drones are pretty good but not great for fleets unless you have big plans.

Why the Hype should be the Attack Battleship

Feels like attack battleships are for more mobile solo/small gang applications.
Active Armour is now faster than buffer tanking with the rig changes
Active Armour is only viable in Solo small gang situations
The EHP can be reduced as per the Attack Battleship stats but active tank can keep it brawling.

The fix

Armour tanking 1.5 improved things a great deal and the resist nerf on the Amarr ship starts to differentiate the two.

As you already state 5 mids are useful for attack battleships especially blaster platforms as it allows for these mids: -

[Hyperion, LAAR + Plate]
Energized Adaptive Nano Membrane II
Reactive Armor Hardener
Large Ancillary Armor Repairer, Nanite Repair Paste
Internal Force Field Array I
1600mm Reinforced Steel Plates II
Magnetic Field Stabilizer II

100MN Microwarpdrive II
Fleeting Propulsion Inhibitor I
Faint Epsilon Warp Scrambler I
Heavy Capacitor Booster II, Navy Cap Booster 800
Large Micro Jump Drive

Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L
Ion Blaster Cannon II, Caldari Navy Antimatter Charge L

Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Auxiliary Nano Pump I
Large Nanobot Accelerator I


Valkyrie II x5

The fit in my hanger, it doesn’t get out much but that is more due to the lack of large plexes and the cost and vulnerability of this ship it does have decent tank, buffer, DPS and uses all bonuses.

The five mids are also important for any fit variation for multiple reps where two cap boosters are required especially to counteract any kind of neuting pressure.

Hype needs some engagement flexibility so increase the drone bay to allow for further flights of drones. This becomes even more important if you keep the slot configuration as proposed as it is likely that tackle that will be sacrificed.

Glad you are listening and really hope some more updates are planned.
Traxle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#349 - 2013-04-08 22:35:43 UTC
Rysis Vyvorant wrote:
[quote=Cambarus]

Maybe replace the damage bonus with a + drone control bonus? 10 Non-damage bonused drones would give it a reasonable amount of damage (+33% over 5 with a damage bonus, or just a hair over 1k DPS with a full set of gardes + 4 DDAs) while making it FEEL like more of a drone boat, rather than the proposed change that makes it feel like a drone/hybrid mix that just got a damage bonus removed.



I'd definitely love to see a domi that can field more drones and lose a High slot for it. You could easily balance the dps by adding or removing the number of drones it can field.
I would like to see the drone bay size increase though if all of our dps is coming from drones though, even with the current changes, I still think it would need a bigger bay.
There's also the issue with drones being easily taken out by bombs or Npcs, but that'll hopefully be taken care of in other discussions.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#350 - 2013-04-08 22:39:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Omnathious Deninard
edit: not enough sleep yet, im a DA with this post.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#351 - 2013-04-08 22:40:37 UTC
Ah yes, the Armageddon vs Dominix.

Personally, I think the strength of the neut bonus is being overestimated somewhat. Its a very cool bonus, but I think the impact of the domi's added tracking and optimal will be similar in power level - we'll have to wait and see. Please keep in mind that you will lose damage on fits that used hybrids before, but the fit will still be available.

I do want to look at the dominix power grid and see if it we can't find a better balance with the Armageddon, by adjusting one or the other.

I think the drone bay thing is kind of odd. Up the ship line you have Amarr with more bay, less bandwidth and Gallente vice versa, but at the BS scale you really can't give a drone ship less than max bandwidth, and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does. I didn't want to lower the dominix bay, so we just set the armageddon equal.

One last thing to mention: Personally, I really think sentry drones should move some, even if its only to return to bay. We need to talk some more about this internally and look at ways it can actually be implemented, but a change to this effect could have a very positive impact on the Dominix and I don't think its a very unrealistic goal.

@ccp_rise

Gaara's sniper
MLG1337420BlazeIt360TitanNoScopeCorporationSWAG
Goonswarm Federation
#352 - 2013-04-08 22:41:13 UTC
multibox fleet of logi-dominixes, here i come!
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#353 - 2013-04-08 22:41:25 UTC
Akirei Scytale wrote:


The problem here is that a Battleship will never be fast or agile enough for these changes to matter much. All it means is you're putting the Megathron into the slot of "kinda sorta fast for a BS but will pop before it ever reaches blaster range".



My mega is fast enough right now to take part in cruiser gangs. With these changes it will be a great roaming BS yet also able to fill roles in larger fleets.
Tiedra Fortescue
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#354 - 2013-04-08 22:42:21 UTC
Pattern Clarc wrote:
What would happen if:
You swapped the rolls of the mega and hyperion?

I know the Art dept would never let you get away with a 7 high slot hyperion so...

Megathron
7/5/7
Becomes the tanky in your face brawler.

Hyperion
8/4/7
Gets tracking bonus, becomes the fleet ship or agile generic dps machine

Domi
6/6/7
Gets the right number of slots, trading dps for more versatility


This sounds like reasonable setup and also ditch the ROF bonus on the Mega, unless you plan to boost cap recharge on it.
Omnathious Deninard
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#355 - 2013-04-08 22:45:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Ah yes, the Armageddon vs Dominix.


I think the drone bay thing is kind of odd. Up the ship line you have Amarr with more bay, less bandwidth and Gallente vice versa, but at the BS scale you really can't give a drone ship less than max bandwidth, and you don't gain much from having more bay than the dominix already does. I didn't want to lower the dominix bay, so we just set the armageddon equal.

Unless the Domninx get something it will be unused as a drone ship as the geddon out performs it.

If you don't follow the rules, neither will I.

Desra Mascani
Eleutherian Guard
#356 - 2013-04-08 22:46:00 UTC
Oh nooooo! What are you doing to my beloved Megathron. Go die in a hole all you shield fags. Cry
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
#357 - 2013-04-08 22:46:36 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

The mega seemed like it wanted to be more like a tempest, less concerned with tank, more focused on utility. A heavy tackler, a hit and run ship (MJD), a ship that could move fast and gank if supported.


Hit and run heavy tackler that can't get to it's target because it's a slow cow.Lol

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CCP Rise
C C P
C C P Alliance
#358 - 2013-04-08 22:47:19 UTC
Quote:
Now go plug in every tank you can think of into the Megathron and bear in mind a respectable BS' EHP is around 120k. Hardly anyone uses the Tempest seriously for a reason!

Making an "agile and fast" battleship is all fine and dandy, except the Talos exists and will always fill that role several orders of magnitude more effectively in the Gallente lineup.

The problem here is that a Battleship will never be fast or agile enough for these changes to matter much. All it means is you're putting the Megathron into the slot of "kinda sorta fast for a BS but will pop before it ever reaches blaster range".

The "tier 3" / assault battlecruisers are filling the role you're trying to shoehorn these ships into. Don't. You're just making them into inferior choices when they already had their own niche.


I want to respond to a few of these points since they seem to be coming up a lot, though I'm not sure why.

First the tank - I showed you the armor tank that people are most likely to use, 2 plate, 2eanm, 1 dcu - this is the standard mega armor tank and its still completely viable. Now, you have the same tank, similar damage, but your ship goes faster and you have an extra mid. Seems like a fair trade.

And as far as the Talos. I would never expect this ship to compete with the Talos as a roaming kiter. That is not whats intended by "fast and agile". If you want to see some value from fast and agile, think about a situation where you have a new shiny armageddon tackled by your friend in a stiletto. The geddon is perma jammed by your friend in a blackbird. But! You have just jumped through the gate and are 35k away from the armageddon! Now, as you close in, the armageddon has 2 friends show up! An oneiros and a falcon. Now you have to make a run for the gate as fast as possible. This is just one example of where a BS's speed matters. If you are in a hyperion, you will struggle to get over there and apply damage in anywhere near the time-frame that this attack mega can. There's many other examples, but I just want to make the point that just because a ship can't kite as well as a Talos, that doesn't mean speed is not important.

As a final point for comparing BS vs Tier3 BC. Always consider the way they would perform vs each other. How does this new mega do in a 1v1 vs a Talos?

@ccp_rise

Traxle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#359 - 2013-04-08 22:48:42 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Moving Sentries


I completely agree!
It would be nice if they were permanently orbiting our ship, unable to leave that flight pattern but still hit stuff.
I'm not sure what the tracking ramifications of that would be though.

or perhaps only allow them to move when they are recalled to the ship.
Either way, big Plus for me on that
Pattern Clarc
Citeregis
#360 - 2013-04-08 22:49:23 UTC
Tiedra Fortescue wrote:
Pattern Clarc wrote:
What would happen if:
You swapped the rolls of the mega and hyperion?

I know the Art dept would never let you get away with a 7 high slot hyperion so...

Megathron
7/5/7
Becomes the tanky in your face brawler.

Hyperion
8/4/7
Gets tracking bonus, becomes the fleet ship or agile generic dps machine

Domi
6/6/7
Gets the right number of slots, trading dps for more versatility


This sounds like reasonable setup and also ditch the ROF bonus on the Mega, unless you plan to boost cap recharge on it.

Well, the Mega would get the active tanking bonus, hyperion tracking bonus........(or the active tanking bonus could diaf because of neuts online)


I think the irony is that they've given the Geddon perfect bonuses (even if fittings and such won't allow more than a compromised fit) for the way everyone flew the Domi.... And yet they insist on shoving active tanking bonuses down our throats when resists are still better (even at 4%) - It' madding.

Ex CSM member & Designer of the Tornado. Gallente - Pilot satisfaction