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[Odyssey] Tech 1 Battleships - Gallente

First post
Author
Xanral
Ajo Heavy Industries
#161 - 2013-04-08 17:29:11 UTC
As others have said Hyperion 7/5/7. Change to RoF bonus for guns.

I've always felt the 3 gallente BSes were a bit too similar so changing up the mega and domi could bring some interesting options to the table.
Roime
Shiva Furnace
#162 - 2013-04-08 17:29:16 UTC
Omnathious Deninard wrote:
Roime wrote:
Omnathious Deninard wrote:

how did it lose 50% when it lost a 25% damage bonus?


Because nobody will fit non-bonused large hybrids on it.

that is there choice, the fittings are still setup for hybrids, without the bonus to hybrid damage it gives it the options for anything in the high slots and not having half the ships bonuses unused by using neuts, RR, or a different turret.


Currently is has those options, and option to do good damage even with railguns.

Afterwards it has those option, but no option to do good damage with any guns.



.

Callic Veratar
#163 - 2013-04-08 17:31:07 UTC
I have a proposal for the Hyperion:

Gallente Battleship Skill Bonuses:
+10% Large Hybrid Turret damage (+5%)
+7.5% Armor Repair amount

Slot layout: 6H (-2), 5M, 8L(+2); 6 turrets (-2), 0 launchers(-1)
Fittings: 13250 PWG (-2500), 550 (-50) CPU
Defense (shields / armor / hull) : 7500 / 8000 / 8500
Capacitor (amount / recharge rate / cap per second) : 7200 / 1250s / 4.8
Mobility (max velocity / agility / mass / align time): 115 / .1178 / 100200000 / 16.36s
Drones (bandwidth / bay): 100 / 125 (+25)
Targeting (max targeting range / Scan Resolution / Max Locked targets): 60km / 110 / 7
Sensor strength: 23 Magnetometric Sensor Strength
Signature radius: 485

This changes the hyperion from 10 effective turrets to 10.5 (following what was done on the harbinger also taking some from the fittings). It leaves the slightly weaker armor rep bonus in place, but it's only useful in specific situations. Damage never seemed to me to be an issue with this ship, just keeping it alive.
Kobea Thris
Inquisition FiS Division
#164 - 2013-04-08 17:31:18 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
We hear you guys about the Hyp - I think we're going to have a day to let the feedback keep settling and give us some time to talk it over and we'll give you an update tomorrow.

There's some good suggestions in here, but its not a simple problem so I don't want us committed to anything too quickly.

Thanks for the feedback


Have you considered making the Megathron the Combat battleship, and the Hyperion the Attack battleship? I know that sounds weird, but think about it. Right now, theoretically, you want to put plates and trimarks on a Megathron, and Reps and an Nano pumps/accelerators on a Hyperion. The Megathron is supposed to be the faster more maneuverable ship, but is more apt to use the slower, bulkier tank. If you keep their slot layout as they are now, but give the Megathron the added HP it needs, while dropping some from the Hyper but increasing it's speed and agility, you might be in a good place.

.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Spaceship Bebop
#165 - 2013-04-08 17:36:33 UTC
Xanral wrote:
As others have said Hyperion 7/5/7. Change to RoF bonus for guns.
Cap hungry active armor reps at BS level take too many slots to be effective. Frees up mid slots for cap boosters, adds valuable midslot to lows. +1
Throktar
Deep Core Mining Inc.
#166 - 2013-04-08 17:41:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Throktar
CCP Rise wrote:
We hear you guys about the Hyp - I think we're going to have a day to let the feedback keep settling and give us some time to talk it over and we'll give you an update tomorrow.

There's some good suggestions in here, but its not a simple problem so I don't want us committed to anything too quickly.

Thanks for the feedback



I am glad to hear you are taking player feedback in mind here. No one gets everything right on the first try every time. Just stay positive and motivated to improving Eve for all.

Now my opinions Twisted : I know you are working on the Hyp so I will not address it currently.

The Megathron: Why? This was the boat that need no tweaking imo other than its speed. It could sport a great tank while putting out great dps. Its drawback was its gun range. Please reconsider giving it that low slot back in exchange for the utility high slot. Or just change it back to the way it was. I understand it losing the drone bandwidth, but that low slot loss is almost unacceptable. I do not want to shield tank my Mega...(2 other races to do that with) I want armor, as it was designed for.

The Dominix : I understand what you are going for here and I think it would be a great boat to fly...if sentry drones would follow your ship. This Domi is supposed to just sit there and try to snipe at range? Any hull with guns with be far superior because they can keep moving. Why can't you make sentry drones follow the ship but at say 120m a second. This way you can slow boat it while aligned, yet you will lose your drones if you use any type of prop mod. Oh and the drones only orbit you they can't fly out, and if you are moer than 2500m from them they go stationary.
Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#167 - 2013-04-08 17:41:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Major Killz
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed.


Care to shed any light?


The Hyperion like a Megathron can work with 1 capacitor booster. The main reason why players prefer 2 capacitor boosters is because there's less module management invovled. LIKE MOST IN THIS GAME THEY WANT THINGS EASY...

The strange thing is before the introduction of auxiliary shield booster. The Maelstrom and more so the Rokh had to deal with having 1 capacitor booster. The Hyperions advantage over those ships was sustained defense and stasis webifier.

As far as I am aware. Based on my own principles and how I place certain ships in there roles.

The tier 3 BATTLESHIPS were damage mitigation platforms. Able to soak copious amount of damage and disable a target so other pilots within the Hyperion, Rokh, Maelstrom and abaddons fleet can provide damage.

I have used (with other characters) the Maelstrom (against 6 battleships) for that purpose and not even fit a warp scrambler while a friend in a Abaddon (faction point ganglinks) provided damage at 40,000m.


Off topic. What are you going to do about the overlap with the Dominix and Armageddon and the Prophecy (armor-Drake) and Myrmidon?

- killz

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Cambarus
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#168 - 2013-04-08 17:42:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Cambarus
Here's to the dominix; what was once an astounding ship is now mostly shite.

Seriously, if you want to turn the domi into a pure drone boat, the first step is to give it a way to do damage befitting a battleship with drones. The 800ish DPS tops that you're going to get out of it with gardes is terrible, and if you're not going to use it as a gun/drone hybrid then you'll be better off with the geddon.

Maybe replace the damage bonus with a + drone control bonus? 10 Non-damage bonused drones would give it a reasonable amount of damage (+33% over 5 with a damage bonus, or just a hair over 1k DPS with a full set of gardes + 4 DDAs) while making it FEEL like more of a drone boat, rather than the proposed change that makes it feel like a drone/hybrid mix that just got a damage bonus removed.

EDIT:
I also look forward to what happens when you rebalance the ishtar, because the new domi bonuses really are better suited for it.
GeeBee
Backwater Redux
Tactical Narcotics Team
#169 - 2013-04-08 17:42:57 UTC
Firstly i am probably overly pleased with the dominix change as it only serves to enhance it in the way i have used it for the past 3 years without any sacrifice at all.

Secondly I do not like the megathron or hyperion changes, heres why:

As neither the megathron or the hyperion are severely utilized for anything i suggest rather than trading a mid slot for a low slot that they be given an additional slot as a straight buff. Since armor ships have to share damage mods with tank in the low slots having either of these below 7 lot slots for an armor tank puts either at a major disadvantage to the role.

The proposed change inverts the mid / low slot layout on the hyperion and megathron and really does neither any justice and just trades out tankability of each ship to be opposite of what it is now.

Hyperion - Self Rep bonus for blob warfare is Useless, lack of tracking bonus gimps it this regard. Targeting range is severely short making them pidgeon holed to blasters or sacrificing fitting for sensor boosters.

Megathron - Bonuses for ROF and tracking are good for blob warfare. Rail fit it is meh and blaster fit it is still too slow / too short range for 0.0 blob damage application. Has utility High for neut, The proposed changes will give it the same Mid / Low as a the tempest which is historically used as a shield brawler / ganker with the armor fit being extremely gimped.

Personally I've always wanted to see a Gallente battleship with a falloff bonus. I Was hopeful it would happen with this, I am sad that it isn't in the current proposal and hopeful that it is or could be under consideration.

Back to rambling about low slots and tanking - Like it or not Gallente has always been competing with Amarr for armor tanks, and they have ALWAYS been loosing(rightly so, but still needs to be able to compete, not just be completely outclassed).

Final Thoughts
What i want to see - A Gallente hybrid boat that can armor fit and brawl in large scale 0.0 warfare. From what I've rambled on above you can see my argument as to how the proposed changes do not make this possible.
Sointu Luonnotar
Doomheim
#170 - 2013-04-08 17:43:42 UTC
So which one of you guys at CCP went "let's make missioning with drones a pain and "improve" NPC AI" and then said " force more ships to rely on drones" and then thought "Yeah that sounds good"?

I mean I know, f*** missioners and all that but still, didn't none of you stop think about it for a minute? Posting in a gallente thread because muh drones.
Askulf Joringer
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#171 - 2013-04-08 17:46:59 UTC
Xanral wrote:
As others have said Hyperion 7/5/7. Change to RoF bonus for guns.

I've always felt the 3 gallente BSes were a bit too similar so changing up the mega and domi could bring some interesting options to the table.


While I originally proposed a ROF bonus instead of a dmage bonus, I think that a 7 gun rof bonus WITH the addition of a low slot for a mag stab would be a little bit too strong of a buff. After doing a bit of number crunching 7/5/7 with a dmg bonus and retaining a 100m3 drone bay would be an extremely ideal change to the Hyperion.

The loss of a turret would free up some grid allowing for a 7 Ion setup with 2 heavy cap injectors, 6 Slot dual rep tank, and a single mag stab. Or a 5 slot dual rep tank (with either 1 eanm, and an explosive hardener, or 2x eanm with an explosive hole) and 2 mag stabs...

IF the Hyperion is to be changed to a 7 gun ship as It should, it's MANDATORY that the graphical placement of the guns be changed to positions that allow for some form of symmetry. While this may not be extremely important to those of us who spend our time crunching numbers and pewing with maximum efficiency, there is a large "OCDish" portion of the community that takes pride in the visual representation of their ships.
Marcel Devereux
Aideron Robotics
Aideron Robotics.
#172 - 2013-04-08 17:47:34 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Xanral wrote:
As others have said Hyperion 7/5/7. Change to RoF bonus for guns.
Cap hungry active armor reps at BS level take too many slots to be effective. Frees up mid slots for cap boosters, adds valuable midslot to lows. +1


Nope! 4/7/8 with a 25% damage bonus per level (9 effective turrets instead of 10) is the way to go. You really need one cap booster per armor repper.
Sinzor Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#173 - 2013-04-08 17:51:04 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
I think its interesting how a lot of people feel the hyperion NEEDS 5 mids to be able to run an active tank - and at the same time a lot of people seem to think the megathron NEEDS its 7 lows back.

That's because Hyper fits active tank, and Throne fits passive. That was an easy question, right?

CCP Rise wrote:
As far as the dominix and its old unpredictability, I expect that to be completely preserved. It won't be capable of the highest damage numbers of any battleship now, but it can still fit blasters across the top and run mag stabs along with drone damage amps and heavy drones.

Everyone is afraid to say that, but I will.
Sentry drones are overpowered. 150 km with 1 omnilink, seriously?
If you absolutely need to remove hybrid bonus, go for drone MWD or at least control range bonus.
Johan March
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#174 - 2013-04-08 17:52:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Johan March
Active armor tanking needs serious work. Check your logs since the last balance. There's a ton more Prophecies being flown than Myrmidons. Bonuses should be useful if one is flying solo, small gang, and large fleet. Resistances do this, repair bonuses do not. Armor repair amount just doesn't accomplish this at all.

I'm still digesting the rest, but I think CCP really needs to look at why Gallente battleships are not used very much and work from there. From what I can tell and I've only been playing EVE for a little over a year, they won't be used much after these changes either.

I've been meaning to start training Amarr ships. Now's a good time to start.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
#175 - 2013-04-08 17:52:53 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
But do you hear us about the general problem with Gallente ships being in last place in terms of use in pvp? As there is a reason they have been in last place for years.


I can tell you from looking at internal metrics that this simply isn't true. For instance, for the last 5 days - the Hyperion has literally done the most combat damage to other player ships (for a tech 1 bs). The MOST. Now there may be a weird reason for this (I imagine its something to do with shield tanked ones on station undocks), but the point is that such a general declaration is unfounded.


There's a lot of things that you can confirm with game analytics, but looking at the top line numbers just isn't the way to do it. Try breaking this top line number down by sec status or by region. Did this originate from offline POS bashing or from attacking station camping archons? Are those situations actually representative of how the game is played in Eve Online and the target use case you have for Hyperions?

On the face of it, I'm having a ton of trouble beliving this from a general PVP perspective.

Quote:

It would be more helpful to hear about what use it ought to be filling, and in what way its falling short. My expectation for the Hyperion was that it generally would be wanting to tank and gank as much as possible, and that self-reliance for utility was secondary. What I'm hearing is that people want it to be more self reliant. If you can add to the discussion in more specific ways I would be happy to hear it.


Active tanking and blasters are both most effective in small gang combat. The kind of combat where you can't rely on having a hundred guys to score your tackle for you.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Helicity Boson
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#176 - 2013-04-08 17:54:37 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
Your metrics are fine. your interpretation of the metrics is deeply flawed.


Care to shed any light?


Simple, you're reading incidental usage (i.e. the good old station gank, the novelty shieldhype gankfit, the odd megathron in a pickup fleet) and considering that to mean they are used seriously.

But they're not, in any more organised fleet megas and particularly hyperion are always on the bottom of the pick-list of allowed ships because they do not offer anything Amarr cannot do better.

I have been in a rather large number of lowsec BS battles by now, and not once, ever, have I seen a Gallente fleet doctrine, and that is because there simple is none.

Long range? Apocs, Navpocs do it much better than gallente. Brawl up close? Blasters are great for that, but the mega lacks the staying power and the hyperion is marred by it's utterly useless repair bonus making both of them inferior to navpocs and baddons.

The primary reason people fly gallente? That just happens to be the race they started as before they knew better. they like blasters and they like the way the ships look and they just sort of make due with the fact they are awful.

So yeah, you will find Gallente BS, and yeah they are definitely used, but they are pretty widely considered useless for basing a doctrine around in organized pvp.
Grendell
Technologies Unlimited
#177 - 2013-04-08 18:00:33 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Quote:
But do you hear us about the general problem with Gallente ships being in last place in terms of use in pvp? As there is a reason they have been in last place for years.


I can tell you from looking at internal metrics that this simply isn't true. For instance, for the last 5 days - the Hyperion has literally done the most combat damage to other player ships (for a tech 1 bs). The MOST. Now there may be a weird reason for this (I imagine its something to do with shield tanked ones on station undocks), but the point is that such a general declaration is unfounded.

It would be more helpful to hear about what use it ought to be filling, and in what way its falling short. My expectation for the Hyperion was that it generally would be wanting to tank and gank as much as possible, and that self-reliance for utility was secondary. What I'm hearing is that people want it to be more self reliant. If you can add to the discussion in more specific ways I would be happy to hear it.



Last 5 days is fairly insignificant when you look at the overall stats over the years: http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20

This is a current snap shot of pvp use, when you go back for the stats every month for the last year, it all has one thing in common. Gallente is dead last.

Speaking specifically for the Megathron, it's gone through a lot of nerfs from general eve balancing. One of those changes being the speed nerf years ago. Given the mass of the Megathron and the reduced speed and agility potential it simply can't be that once loved in your face blaster boat. Unless you get that perfect warp in on top of your enemy fleet and they somehow forget their ships are not stationary. They will be out of your range and kiting you safely. Mix that speed nerf with web's being reduced from 90% to 60% and it only made a bad situation worse. So when getting into range was already a problem, keeping them in range became another problem. That web speed reduction also affected the ability to put out that desired high dps.

Many of these random changes weren't meant to directly affect the Megathron, but they all had negative impacts on the ability of the ship. Individually all those little changes really compounded into a a huge problem.

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Burseg Sardaukar
Sardaukar Merc Guild
General Tso's Alliance
#178 - 2013-04-08 18:02:15 UTC
Ager Agemo wrote:
OMFG! that dominix! *-* Talk about drone firepower! give cant remove 1 high and add 1 more low tho?


The Drone DPS stays exactly the same. It is a net DPS nerf and everyone will switch to Autocannons... or just use the Armageddon, as I will.

Can't wait to dual box my Dust toon and EVE toon on the same machine!

Major Killz
inglorious bastards.
#179 - 2013-04-08 18:02:39 UTC
There are in fact Dominix fleet doctrines STILL and they are STILL VERY effective. Not so much in null where engagements are more nimble (ping spots, warp too, tactical bubbles). While in low security space battleship engagements are alot more static and much more focused on logistics, EHP, Neutraliation, damage and reisistence. Tactial movement is limited and in that enviroment these blaster Dominix fleets with sentries work well and are near Abaddons. OFC they have thier weaknesses.


- killz

[u]Ich bin ein Pirat ![/u]

Vaju Enki
Secular Wisdom
#180 - 2013-04-08 18:03:05 UTC
Good changes.

The Tears Must Flow