These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Can Null not see the potential?

Author
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#81 - 2013-01-20 10:47:24 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
Malcanis wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
]Just accept it man. The situation is hideously imbalanced, there's no way to defend the imbalance, and there's no way it's not going to be rebalanced; all there really is to discuss is by exactly what and by how much.


Piugattuk wrote:

I am going to surprise you, I agree Null needs an manufacturing industrialization badly absolutely give outposts the ability to have 100 or more slots, there is no perfect answer if there is no stations to do it, but every person going to null knows full well (or should) they are moving to the wilderness to be pioneers with wild injuns running about why is it so surprising that they don't have a wal-mart at their convince?

Many say bears are turning eve into carnival land but it seems bears aren't the only guilty here 0.0 was supposed to be tough.


We're not asking for free Walmarts, like you in hi-sec get, we're asking for the ability to build our own Saks and Bloomingdales if we want to. At our own expense.

Oh and for hi-sec industry to stop receiving the illegal subsidies that allow it to dump underpriced products, making it impossible those of us who do have to pay for our own infrastructure, and protect it with our own efforts at our own expense, to compete fairly.

You get to complain when you pay for what you get yourself. Whilst your sucking on the NPC corp tit, and hiding behind daddy CONCORD, you can be quietly grateful for whatever deal you get.


Ok, then build what? What structure is good enough you don't like POS'es, don't like outposts?
then what? A new type of structure? Tell your ideal of what you want don't just try to demean me by saying I get fed from tit and welfare from the state.
I am here to find a solution to present in the ideals and features section instead of running around like Mrs. Cravetts from bewitched worried about everything else.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#82 - 2013-01-20 10:49:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Piugattuk wrote:
Let me turn your moon table back around, how many are taken by 0.0 corps or their cronies, how many are taken by corporations not running them, war dec them sure as a bear I'm sure I can run them off.


Quite a few, I imagine. Why should we play stupid and not take advantage of the unearned subsidies available?


Piugattuk wrote:
I don't want to keep this up if you don't want POS'es and outposts are not cutting it then what is a reasonable solution?
NPC stations in every system?


NPC stations in every system is not the answer. As a point of principle, the best player-built anything should be better than NPC. Outposts need a huge buff, particularly since we can only have 1 per system.

Piugattuk wrote:
If then there are NPC stations in every system then anyone can dock there or would SOV holders feel violated?


It kind of undermines the point of being able to claim an area of space.

Piugattuk wrote:
What would satisfy this dilemma? Nerfing hi sec isn't gonna help and lets increase the cost of manufacturing at NPC stations guess what...the cost get passed on.

Now what, don't just get on the train track, solutions give solutions for this.


(1) Sov outposts need a big rework, and a massive buff to their upgradeability. A totally upgraded manufacturing outposts should be able to match the best Empire systems for manufacturing capability. Likewise research.

(2) A fully upgraded outpost needs to be the best possible place to do its respective activity. That's going to mean a nerf of some kind for some NPC station facilities, because you can't get better than 100% refine, for instance. It also means an increase in NPC manufacturing & research fees, which everyone must surely agree are currently absurdly low.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#83 - 2013-01-20 11:00:51 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
How on earth is this supposed to be competitive with manufacturing in hisec? I'm told Nonni has 550 manufacturing slots. That means it would take 62 POS to replicate that manufacturing capability, which would cost around 30 billion ISK a month to run, and something like 90 billion to set up. Not to mention the value of the player time - let's put it at a conservative 90 hours to set the whole thing up, and then an additional overhead of 3 hours per week per POS, coming to 270 player hours in the first month. Those additional hours could be spent running level 4s at 50M/hr (I picked that as a baseline income activity), adding another 13.5B to the head start.


meanwhile using up all of the slots in Nonni for an entire month costs a grand total of 126,500,000 ISK

install cost is 1,000 ISK and cost per hour is 333 ISK whether you're in Jita or in the most remote part of lowsec or NPC 0.0

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#84 - 2013-01-20 11:02:04 UTC
Andski wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
How on earth is this supposed to be competitive with manufacturing in hisec? I'm told Nonni has 550 manufacturing slots. That means it would take 62 POS to replicate that manufacturing capability, which would cost around 30 billion ISK a month to run, and something like 90 billion to set up. Not to mention the value of the player time - let's put it at a conservative 90 hours to set the whole thing up, and then an additional overhead of 3 hours per week per POS, coming to 270 player hours in the first month. Those additional hours could be spent running level 4s at 50M/hr (I picked that as a baseline income activity), adding another 13.5B to the head start.


meanwhile using up all of the slots in Nonni for an entire month costs a grand total of 126,500,000 ISK

install cost is 1,000 ISK and cost per hour is 333 ISK whether you're in Jita or in the most remote part of lowsec or NPC 0.0


Well, almost. Some installations charge as much as 750 ISK/hr.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#85 - 2013-01-20 11:05:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Piugattuk
Malcanis I agree with you, buff the hell out of outposts make it possible to put as many outpost as any SOV holder wants NP there.

Increased cost, doesn't matter to me, go for it, those cost will go to the guy buying it, and since manufacturing cost is whatever corporation owning said outposts including taxes then 0.0 should be able to produce many times cheaper then hi sec.

But here's the problem when I get a price too high I,
A. Shop around.
B. Buy a BPO / BPC's and build as many as I wish.
Take your choice raising prices only creates poverty and independence not insane profits.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#86 - 2013-01-20 11:06:22 UTC
Andski wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
How on earth is this supposed to be competitive with manufacturing in hisec? I'm told Nonni has 550 manufacturing slots. That means it would take 62 POS to replicate that manufacturing capability, which would cost around 30 billion ISK a month to run, and something like 90 billion to set up. Not to mention the value of the player time - let's put it at a conservative 90 hours to set the whole thing up, and then an additional overhead of 3 hours per week per POS, coming to 270 player hours in the first month. Those additional hours could be spent running level 4s at 50M/hr (I picked that as a baseline income activity), adding another 13.5B to the head start.


meanwhile using up all of the slots in Nonni for an entire month costs a grand total of 126,500,000 ISK

install cost is 1,000 ISK and cost per hour is 333 ISK whether you're in Jita or in the most remote part of lowsec or NPC 0.0


Well surely we superawesome 0.0 players can get past a little thing like a cost disadvantage of 29.87 billion ISK a month! That's not even two supercarriers per month!

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

Akirei Scytale
Okami Syndicate
#87 - 2013-01-20 11:06:30 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Right, but that is part of the price for having access to the best stuff in game.

If it's too expensive then why do corps stay?

And trillions don't even comes close, even a small POS will go into an industructable mode giving an Alliance time to repell any attack. A small POS cost what??? 70 mil, structures how much...any corporation worth it's salt will already have a supply of standby stuff on hand.

100 mil is nothing to a Null corp.


All reinforcing does is let you know when the POS will die, or when to organize a defense if it is important enough.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#88 - 2013-01-20 11:06:48 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Malcanis I agree with you, buff the hell out of outposts make it possible to put as many outpost as any SOV holder wants NP there.

Increased cost, doesn't matter to me, go for it, those cost will go to the guy buying it, and since manufacturing cost is whatever the corporation owning said outposts the including taxes then 0.0 should be able to produce many times cheaper then hi sec.

But here's the problem when I get a price too high I,
A. Shop around.
B. Buy a BPO / BPC's and build as many as I wish.
Take your choice raising prices only creates poverty and independence not insane profits.


Why would I not be OK with that?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016

SB Rico
Sumo Wrestlers
#89 - 2013-01-20 11:07:17 UTC  |  Edited by: SB Rico
OK Let's look at this in a slightly different way, maybe instead of messing with High Sec and driving all ship prices through the roof even more (a goddamn recon/HIC now costs as much as a CS 3 years ago).

Rather than jack up manufacturing costs in High Sec maybe there should instead be an improvement to the manufacturing facilities available at POSes and Outposts. Making it cost effective to manufacture ships in null without the market spiraling ever further upwards.

This would be in the interests of both parties since in theory (can't do anything about alliances who set silly costs in their outposts) if high sec costs increase everyone in game ends up worse off. Your goods may now be made in null sec but you will still have paid the cost you don't want to pay now. Instead of making your life better you now have to rat, plex, mine, wh, etc. more to pay for the cost.

Scammers are currently selling killrights on this toon for up to 5mil, if you have paid for this service demand your money back at once.

Killing me should be for free.

Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#90 - 2013-01-20 11:12:56 UTC
SB Rico wrote:
OK Let's look at this in a slightly different way, maybe instead of messing with High Sec and driving all ship prices through the roof even more (a goddamn recon/HIC now costs as much as a CS 3 years ago).

Rather than jack up manufacturing costs in High Sec maybe there should instead be an improvement to the manufacturing facilities available at POSes and Outposts. Making it cost effective to manufacture ships in null without the market spiraling ever further upwards.

This would be in the interests of both parties since in theory (can't do anything about alliances who set silly costs in their outposts) if high sec costs increase everyone in game ends up worse off. Your goods may now be made in null sec but you will still have paid the cost you don't want to pay now. Instead of making your life better you now have to rat, plex, mine, wh, etc. more to pay for the cost.


And that's IF you can access the outposts.
SB Rico
Sumo Wrestlers
#91 - 2013-01-20 11:15:22 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
SB Rico wrote:
OK Let's look at this in a slightly different way, maybe instead of messing with High Sec and driving all ship prices through the roof even more (a goddamn recon/HIC now costs as much as a CS 3 years ago).

Rather than jack up manufacturing costs in High Sec maybe there should instead be an improvement to the manufacturing facilities available at POSes and Outposts. Making it cost effective to manufacture ships in null without the market spiraling ever further upwards.

This would be in the interests of both parties since in theory (can't do anything about alliances who set silly costs in their outposts) if high sec costs increase everyone in game ends up worse off. Your goods may now be made in null sec but you will still have paid the cost you don't want to pay now. Instead of making your life better you now have to rat, plex, mine, wh, etc. more to pay for the cost.


And that's IF you can access the outposts.


Well one would assume the guy building for his alliance could access their outpost. Why should they want to give third parties isk when they can do it in-house?

Scammers are currently selling killrights on this toon for up to 5mil, if you have paid for this service demand your money back at once.

Killing me should be for free.

Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#92 - 2013-01-20 11:18:42 UTC
SB Rico wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
SB Rico wrote:
OK Let's look at this in a slightly different way, maybe instead of messing with High Sec and driving all ship prices through the roof even more (a goddamn recon/HIC now costs as much as a CS 3 years ago).

Rather than jack up manufacturing costs in High Sec maybe there should instead be an improvement to the manufacturing facilities available at POSes and Outposts. Making it cost effective to manufacture ships in null without the market spiraling ever further upwards.

This would be in the interests of both parties since in theory (can't do anything about alliances who set silly costs in their outposts) if high sec costs increase everyone in game ends up worse off. Your goods may now be made in null sec but you will still have paid the cost you don't want to pay now. Instead of making your life better you now have to rat, plex, mine, wh, etc. more to pay for the cost.


And that's IF you can access the outposts.


Well one would assume the guy building for his alliance could access their outpost. Why should they want to give third parties isk when they can do it in-house?


Should is the part sticking out there but I remember politics getting in the way of free access even within an alliance.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#93 - 2013-01-20 11:20:32 UTC
But seriously manufacturing costs should not be so trivial. Costs should be demand-based.

It is ridiculous that a carrier costs something like 95k ISK to build in an NPC station in lowsec. In the real world, tooling, labor, maintenance, energy and real estate are all expensive and constitute a significant part of the cost of goods. Yet in EVE, what represents the use of another's real estate, equipment and consumption of energy is a pittance.

I mean I dislike real-world comparisons as much as the next guy but building stuff in publicly accessible slots should not be practically free. The cost per hour should be closer to 100k in a system with moderate demand, and much more than that in high-demand systems.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

SB Rico
Sumo Wrestlers
#94 - 2013-01-20 11:28:04 UTC
Andski wrote:
But seriously manufacturing costs should not be so trivial. Costs should be demand-based.

It is ridiculous that a carrier costs something like 95k ISK to build in an NPC station in lowsec. In the real world, tooling, labor, maintenance, energy and real estate are all expensive and constitute a significant part of the cost of goods. Yet in EVE, what represents the use of another's real estate, equipment and consumption of energy is a pittance.

I mean I dislike real-world comparisons as much as the next guy but building stuff in publicly accessible slots should not be practically free. The cost per hour should be closer to 100k in a system with moderate demand, and much more than that in high-demand systems.


Fantastic and we can all end up spending 30 hours a week earning enough isk to actually buy a ship

Scammers are currently selling killrights on this toon for up to 5mil, if you have paid for this service demand your money back at once.

Killing me should be for free.

Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#95 - 2013-01-20 11:30:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
SB Rico wrote:
Fantastic and we can all end up spending 30 hours a week earning enough isk to actually buy a ship


yes I'm sure that the extra 3-5m ISK for a T2 cruiser will utterly bankrupt you

also T1 hulls build in a few hours each, prices of ships are not going to increase substantially

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#96 - 2013-01-20 11:31:08 UTC
SB Rico wrote:
OK Let's look at this in a slightly different way, maybe instead of messing with High Sec and driving all ship prices through the roof even more (a goddamn recon/HIC now costs as much as a CS 3 years ago).

Rather than jack up manufacturing costs in High Sec maybe there should instead be an improvement to the manufacturing facilities available at POSes and Outposts. Making it cost effective to manufacture ships in null without the market spiraling ever further upwards.

This would be in the interests of both parties since in theory (can't do anything about alliances who set silly costs in their outposts) if high sec costs increase everyone in game ends up worse off. Your goods may now be made in null sec but you will still have paid the cost you don't want to pay now. Instead of making your life better you now have to rat, plex, mine, wh, etc. more to pay for the cost.


The usage cost to manufacture a Hurricane is 1760 ISK. For a Rokh it's 2157 ISK. That is, for all intents and purposes, FREE.


You cannot effectively compete with FREE without a massive advantage somewhere else. When FREE comes with safety, convenience, and safe logistics, there's nowhere left to shoehorn that advantage in.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

Jacob Holland
Weyland-Vulcan Industries
#97 - 2013-01-20 11:33:08 UTC
Back when I was in IAC out in 0.0, before the existance of Jump Freighters - heck, even Carriers were quite rare, at least in the worlds in which we moved and Titans even more so... The logistics of moving manufactured items from highsec (and stuff like faction loot back to market) was a major undertaking, we had freighter ops every now and then but we almost exclusively imported T2, things we couldn't make for ourselves because of both the blueprint restrictions and the availability of moongoo.
Our ratting ammunition, our battleships, almost everything we needed on a day to day basis, was built in POS arrays in our own space - most of it by Mercurials Inc. as I recall.
In the time before the establishment of The Distillery (our first Outpost) we lived out of POSs and GSCs and it was a very hard, frontier life. One of the biggest problems with POS refining arrays was that they couldn't handle the reprocessing of modules, which limited our mineral inputs given the danger at that time of mining.
Once we'd established The Distillery (a Minmatar Service outpost) Mercurials Inc. put up large buy orders for minerals, they purchased vast quantities of Tritanium from those who used our facilities and they built the majority of the ships we used to hold our space.
We, in FIRMA, manufactured significantly less (predominantly Ammunition) but we were still able to keep up, to some degree, with the demand for EMP L and Mjolnir Torps.
We held mining ops which didn't focus entirely on Gneiss (we had almost no ABCs and no M at all) but swept belts because doing so netted vast quantities of the low-ends for which we had an insatiable thirst.

It was our own, 0.0 manufacturing, conducted long before we had access to things like Jump Bridge Networks and so forth, which propelled us to control (of a sort) over the whole of Catch.

Imports of vast levels of low-end minerals from Empire (including mineral compression) made larger empires possible but they weren't a necessity originally... Heck, when we moved in there were small corporations who lived in our space (and had done for years) with barely any contact with Empire.

The frontiers of space used to be valuable because they were frontiers, once you build a railroad out to a frontier town it ceases to be a frontier, you can get all the latest stuff from Jita but the value of what you had is lessened.


Consider also that, given a fixed demand, the proportions of minerals required by manufacturing drive the prices - if Noxcium is more valuable than Zydrine or Megacyte then it suggests a shortage of supply. The prices of many of the lowend minerals are significantly higher than the old base price - which suggests that the supply is smaller than the demand from the manufacturing base. I wonder whether, if the perceived costs generated by suicide gankers (less of an issue now), bumpers, can flippers and so forth were lower and the supply of empire generated lowends were to increase significantly... perhaps with Trit at 2 ISK per unit again we might see an increase in the value of that imported Zydrine and Megacyte?
SB Rico
Sumo Wrestlers
#98 - 2013-01-20 11:35:17 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
SB Rico wrote:
OK Let's look at this in a slightly different way, maybe instead of messing with High Sec and driving all ship prices through the roof even more (a goddamn recon/HIC now costs as much as a CS 3 years ago).

Rather than jack up manufacturing costs in High Sec maybe there should instead be an improvement to the manufacturing facilities available at POSes and Outposts. Making it cost effective to manufacture ships in null without the market spiraling ever further upwards.

This would be in the interests of both parties since in theory (can't do anything about alliances who set silly costs in their outposts) if high sec costs increase everyone in game ends up worse off. Your goods may now be made in null sec but you will still have paid the cost you don't want to pay now. Instead of making your life better you now have to rat, plex, mine, wh, etc. more to pay for the cost.


The usage cost to manufacture a Hurricane is 1760 ISK. For a Rokh it's 2157 ISK. That is, for all intents and purposes, FREE.


You cannot effectively compete with FREE without a massive advantage somewhere else. When FREE comes with safety, convenience, and safe logistics, there's nowhere left to shoehorn that advantage in.


And that is why I advocated looking at ways to reduce the cost of manufacturing in null sec.

Scammers are currently selling killrights on this toon for up to 5mil, if you have paid for this service demand your money back at once.

Killing me should be for free.

RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#99 - 2013-01-20 11:35:58 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
SB Rico wrote:
And that is why I advocated looking at ways to reduce the cost of manufacturing in null sec.


So, break reprocessing by reducing mineral costs?

Because that's the only way to reduce the cost of manufacturing.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon

SB Rico
Sumo Wrestlers
#100 - 2013-01-20 11:39:02 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
SB Rico wrote:
And that is why I advocated looking at ways to reduce the cost of manufacturing in null sec.


So, break reprocessing by reducing mineral costs?

Because that's the only way to reduce the cost of manufacturing.


OK specifics?

Make outpost refining more efficient
Increase the manufacturing slots on POSes and Outposts

IMPROVE the null sec facilities to acheive balance rather than nerf the HIgh Sec ones, I am on your side to a point things should be done to help manufacturing in null sec but and here is the crucial issue for me.

NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF THE REST OF US.

Scammers are currently selling killrights on this toon for up to 5mil, if you have paid for this service demand your money back at once.

Killing me should be for free.