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Can Null not see the potential?
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Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#121 - 2013-01-20 12:04:23 UTC
Andski wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Two issues: the ISK component of manufacturing in hi-sec is negligable. Simply negating that makes no difference, and it certainly doesn't cover the additional overhead of working in 0.0


Actually, a 100k ISK/hour slot cost achieves quite a bit of parity with the cost of working with POSes, if not giving an appreciable cost advantage to a POS with its slots in full production for a month.


Assuming you don't count the cost of the POS itself, and your time spent using it is free, of course.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
baltec1
Bat Country
The Initiative.
#122 - 2013-01-20 12:04:23 UTC
SB Rico wrote:


The last point is foolish, where did those minerals in jita come from? Answers on a postcard to...


Around 60% of my minerals bill goes on high sec minerals.

The simple fact is untill high sec builders have to pay 250-300 mil every 21 days large scale 0.0 maufacturing is just not going to be viable.
Brooks Puuntai
Solar Nexus.
#123 - 2013-01-20 12:04:32 UTC
Jacob Holland wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
More efficient than Perfect? How does that work?

Yep, but that's not enough, because the competition is FREE, Convenient, has Easy Logistics, is Perfectly Safe, and is effectively unlimited.

Nullsec facilities need to be significantly better than HS facilities in order to be competitive. And since HS facilities are currently Perfect for industry, they're going to have to be nerfed to allow space for Nullsec to be better than them.


More efficient than perfect isn't necessary and it only appears important because of the vast and easy logistics afforded by jump bridge networks and so forth.
If the need from Null can be fulfilled by Null more easily than it can be fulfilled by Empire then that's all that's needed.

If Null is the frontier then its exports to Empire should be appropriate to a frontier; Beaver pelts, gold...etc. the True Sansha EANM or the Macherial BPC - and its imports from Empire should be similarly appropriate to a frontier; people, things it cannot supply for itself (not things it can't be arsed to supply for itself); it should not be importing clay and iron ore (Trit) or nails (T1 ships)...


This is Internet Spaceships, not the wild west.


CCP's Motto: If it isn't broken, break it. If it is broken, ignore it. Improving NPE / Dynamic New Eden
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#124 - 2013-01-20 12:05:19 UTC
SB Rico wrote:

And because you feel that there is some risk in null sec where goons, test and PL religiously stamp out anyone who looks like they could grow into a threat in a few years you think you should have better manufacturing to save you spending a coupla mil on JFs. I don't see the point of arguing any further though since Null Sec also has the CSM so this is a pointless arguing.
Nullsec has more ship losses then all other regions put together hth
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#125 - 2013-01-20 12:05:19 UTC
SB Rico wrote:


And because you feel that there is some risk in null sec where goons, test and PL religiously stamp out anyone...


How much effort did you have to put into securing the empire stations you use?

Oh, that's right, nothing.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#126 - 2013-01-20 12:08:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Nicolo da'Vicenza
lol if the the most sophisticated and military powerful civilizations in a player-centric game are based in "frontier" space maybe you should recheck your definition of "frontier'
Nicolo da'Vicenza
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#127 - 2013-01-20 12:08:30 UTC
i feel bad, this thread is like the fedor vs. zuluzinho of threads
(i am fedor)
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#128 - 2013-01-20 12:13:17 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Malcanis wrote:
Andski wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Two issues: the ISK component of manufacturing in hi-sec is negligable. Simply negating that makes no difference, and it certainly doesn't cover the additional overhead of working in 0.0


Actually, a 100k ISK/hour slot cost achieves quite a bit of parity with the cost of working with POSes, if not giving an appreciable cost advantage to a POS with its slots in full production for a month.


Assuming you don't count the cost of the POS itself, and your time spent using it is free, of course.


I'm treating the POS as a capital expenditure. The fact that it'd pay for itself (in terms of cost savings vs. building in NPC stations) in a few months is "not bad."

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#129 - 2013-01-20 12:24:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Andski
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
lol if the the most sophisticated and military powerful civilizations in a player-centric game are based in "frontier" space maybe you should recheck your definition of "frontier'


there was once a crappy frontier trading post called new amsterdam

that frontier trading post is called "new york city" now

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#130 - 2013-01-20 12:36:19 UTC
Andski wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Andski wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Two issues: the ISK component of manufacturing in hi-sec is negligable. Simply negating that makes no difference, and it certainly doesn't cover the additional overhead of working in 0.0


Actually, a 100k ISK/hour slot cost achieves quite a bit of parity with the cost of working with POSes, if not giving an appreciable cost advantage to a POS with its slots in full production for a month.


Assuming you don't count the cost of the POS itself, and your time spent using it is free, of course.


I'm treating the POS as a capital expenditure. The fact that it'd pay for itself (in terms of cost savings vs. building in NPC stations) in a few months is "not bad."


It's worh remembering though that that POS costs the same ISK whether you're using it or not.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#131 - 2013-01-20 12:44:03 UTC
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
lol if the the most sophisticated and military powerful civilizations in a player-centric game are based in "frontier" space maybe you should recheck your definition of "frontier'


And if your definition of a sandbox is one where players aren't able to develop that frontier as they see fit, what is it?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#132 - 2013-01-20 12:44:18 UTC
Malcanis wrote:
Andski wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Andski wrote:
Malcanis wrote:
Two issues: the ISK component of manufacturing in hi-sec is negligable. Simply negating that makes no difference, and it certainly doesn't cover the additional overhead of working in 0.0


Actually, a 100k ISK/hour slot cost achieves quite a bit of parity with the cost of working with POSes, if not giving an appreciable cost advantage to a POS with its slots in full production for a month.


Assuming you don't count the cost of the POS itself, and your time spent using it is free, of course.


I'm treating the POS as a capital expenditure. The fact that it'd pay for itself (in terms of cost savings vs. building in NPC stations) in a few months is "not bad."


It's worh remembering though that that POS costs the same ISK whether you're using it or not.


Of course one won't realize a cost savings if they don't keep arrays running at full capacity, but somebody who is not a dedicated industrialist would be better served by station slots.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
Ptraci
3 R Corporation
#133 - 2013-01-20 12:47:53 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Every system controlled by an Alliance has X systems in them with X number of planets with X number of moons.

At each moon a POS.

At each POS X amount of structures.

Each structures have how many slots means potentially hundreds of slots in one system alone.

In every region potential for thousands of slots running.

If CEO's can't get each corp member to anchor a POS and get them to produce, at the same time have a corp fund for buying fuel and logistical support for fuel or alliances not supporting logistical lines for this then why blame a broken null?
Seems more like inept leadership to me.

Now this; instead of spamming CCP for hi sec nerf why not ask for a new feature like NPC mercs to help guard their POS'es and assets.
this will help for players in Null not having to be on guard protecting moons all the time giving them more freedom to roam.


Let me guess, you're in the POS fuel business right?

Seriously people play EVE for FUN. Logging in and spending 5 hours looking after your POSes making sure they have everything they need and cycling industry jobs is NOT what we do. We jump into ships and go find people like you to kill in the most unfair manner possible. THAT is fun.
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#134 - 2013-01-20 13:02:03 UTC
Wow I missed that "why not have everyone in nullsec run a POS" post

Subsidizing that much fuel would bankrupt Goonswarm in only 2-3 weeks

Pretty funny that we literally have enough ISK for everyone in our alliance to run a POS for a few weeks though, heh

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#135 - 2013-01-20 13:05:11 UTC
Andski wrote:
Wow I missed that "why not have everyone in nullsec run a POS" post


You mean the OP? Bear

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Andski
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#136 - 2013-01-20 13:12:48 UTC
RubyPorto wrote:
Andski wrote:
Wow I missed that "why not have everyone in nullsec run a POS" post


You mean the OP? Bear


I tend to skip OPs that discuss nullsec "potential" when the authors are hisec residents accustomed to having everything readily available at any quantity they could possibly need.

Twitter: @EVEAndski

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths."    - Abrazzar
elitatwo
Zansha Expansion
#137 - 2013-01-20 13:45:41 UTC
Usually I don't like to jump into nullsec threads even thou I used to be member of -A-'s cashco- errm renter corps and not too long ago habitant in a Vale of the Silent.
Most industry related problems we had were and still are that outposts have nowhere near the capacity to make up for ships lost on a regular basis and you will never be able to satisfy the mineral requirements of those losses with no help of highsec imports.

In another thread about nullsec outposts I suggested that you should give outpost a large number of copying, manufacturing and building slots so that they attract industrialits to go there and make thier stuff there.
Hence even given them outpost upgrades that gives them weapon slots to have station guns to protect smaller numbers of poeple go there and buy or build stuff, so nullsec people can say - screw you highsec we don't need you anymore.

I also think that making an outpost destructable is just a terrible idea. An outpost should be a landmark in a solar system - a landmark of the people making an efford to build that thing in the first place.

It should ontop of that be equal to that gurista or blood raider station 14 jumps away. That way you get people back to nullsec and people in nullsec wanting to hurt people all the time targets to shoot at at the risk of getting shot themselves.

Industry in nullsec should not be an evil stepmother better left alone with her cats and drive people away from there in the first place.

There are just to few reasons to even go to null other then to meet likewise people who want to fight at any nullsec entry point and let them keep thier sec status intact.

Eve Minions is recruiting.

This is the law of ship progression!

Aura sound-clips: Aura forever
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#138 - 2013-01-20 15:10:30 UTC
Andski wrote:
RubyPorto wrote:
Andski wrote:
Wow I missed that "why not have everyone in nullsec run a POS" post


You mean the OP? Bear


I tend to skip OPs that discuss nullsec "potential" when the authors are hisec residents accustomed to having everything readily available at any quantity they could possibly need.


That's the problem with these discussions - they genuinely don't know just how privileged they are.

They think we just don't do industry in 0.0 because we "hate industrialists" or we're sociopaths whatever. Not because we can do basic maths and we have the 3 neurons required to see that it's simply stupid.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Fanatic Row
Neo T.E.C.H.
#139 - 2013-01-20 15:24:34 UTC
Some of Nul can see the potential, farms and fields and all that.

CCP however can't, as they are not willing to give POSes the revamp they need in order to be used for this.

It is quite disheartening that CCP have dreamed up enough changes that a POS revamp would need, enough to apparently require the entire team for 12 months, but using POSs as a small-scale conflict driver isn't one of them.
Silivar Karkun
Doomheim
#140 - 2013-01-20 16:22:16 UTC
again the old problem comes from all sources, 1. the lack of interest in industry from part of the null dwellers, 2. the thing that CCP keeps nerfing high sec, when the problem is that null should have better rewards (not only in terms of bounties and resources but in industrial processes).