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Can Null not see the potential?
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Snow Axe
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#61 - 2013-01-20 09:16:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Snow Axe
Piugattuk wrote:
[I did a research on building a tengu, cost ~230 mil to build the hull, tell me how I can pick up a hull in Jita at about ~185 mil If someone isn't taking hits on the chin?)


This is highsecpublord.txt right here. "A 45 million isk difference between build cost and sell price? Everyone must be selling at a tremendous loss, no way is my math wrong or anything!"

Also I'm p. sure that when you said you "did a research", you just loaded up Eve IPH and picked Tengu Blueprint and only looked at the profit when buying pre-built components. Actual research would have shown why that's a dumb and bad idea.

"Look any reason why you need to talk like that? I have now reported you. I dont need to listen to your bad tone. If you cant have a grown up conversation then leave the thread["
Solstice Project
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#62 - 2013-01-20 09:17:29 UTC
If the null people saw the potential, they would leave null
and head back to highsec. Where all the people are !

They'd get their changes soon ...
Kalle Demos
Ironic Corp Name
#63 - 2013-01-20 09:23:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Kalle Demos
0.0 is not really for people who want to make ISK as only a hand full of people have access to moon goo, the only benefit people get joining a spaceholding alliance over every other alliance is they can have some meaning in their life, some importance and value. If people want to make ISK they will do FW missions, trading or some **** in a WH, 0.0 is a terrible place for making ISK.

CCP could change 0.0 and rename it 0.CFC, it wouldnt make a difference to the rest of the game, and you know why? Because most people in those big empires have alts out of 0.0 that make money for their main and have more fun on their alts than their main.

Is there really any benefit of joining a spaceholding alliance other than saying to your internet nerd friends I am part of *insert spaceholding alliance here*?

Its easy to sit back and be like woah CFC / HBC are dicks for napping 90% of everyone, but if you actually look deep into what they get from that space, its nothing but a name on a map.

For those that disagree have some fun on sisi seeing first hand the benefits of having space, after a while you will probably thank CFC/HBC for managing the landfill known as nullsec.
Cyprus Black
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#64 - 2013-01-20 09:24:56 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:

Well then this is why null cant get their cht together cause nobody wants to make it work but want all the benefits.

Nobody can help null till null helps itself but it seems that instead of trying you want to resort to name calling when the light is turned on null to show that many of the vocal folks posting to nerf hi are full of it.
Your naivety is strong.

Look, players will ALWAYS choose the most efficient and cheap method available. It's far far cheaper to make it in highsec and have it shipped out to nullsec than to spend trillions of isk on incredibly risky and less efficient methods.

Gee, which would I choose?

Current method of nullsec residents:
-Building and/or purchase cost in highsec is very cheap.
-Cost of using a jump freighter to get all of it to nullsec is very cheap.
-Number of players necessary to successfully complete the haul is low.
-Time required to complete said method is only a few hours.

Your method:
-The cost of purchasing POS's, modules, and fuel is extremely high.
-The rate of manufacturing output is very low.
-The risk of the POS, and everything inside, getting destroyed is very high.
-Time required to haul in all those POS materials, setting them up, and maintaining them is ludicrously high.
-Number of players necessary to keep all those POS's fueled and running would require a moderate sized army.
-Players will still have to haul in raw minerals, materials, fuel and components in from highsec, thus defeating the entire purpose.
-POS mechanics are a buggy royal pain in the rear
(you would've never proposed this if you honestly had any dealings with POS management which we all know you haven't and are lying).



It seems it is YOU who cannot see the problem. Seriously, why are you defending such an obviously terrible and dysfunctional idea? You've been proven wrong on every point. Now you're just whining and are in denial.

Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#65 - 2013-01-20 09:32:26 UTC
You can build you just have to have the will, I anchored and ran 4 structures in my small POS.

I can build a tengu from raw materials but the cost of raw materials is the part where that cost thingy comes into play, did you know a T-3 can be built at a POS?
Of course you did, you make it sound like nothing can be done out of a POS and yet WH folks seem to manage it, even building Roqual in a C1 quite a feat but they do it, why cause they have the will.

I can see that you wish to believe you live in the land of the damned but I've been there done that and even lived in a POS in a WH before Russians were kind enough to help me out...literally.

If you hate your situation please I invite you to live here in hi and an NPC corp will furnish you with a CQ and low overhead otherwise don't get upset because you made your bed now you have to live with it.
Cyprus Black
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#66 - 2013-01-20 09:38:58 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
You can build you just have to have the will, I anchored and ran 4 structures in my small POS.

I can build a tengu from raw materials but the cost of raw materials is the part where that cost thingy comes into play, did you know a T-3 can be built at a POS?
Of course you did, you make it sound like nothing can be done out of a POS and yet WH folks seem to manage it, even building Roqual in a C1 quite a feat but they do it, why cause they have the will.

I can see that you wish to believe you live in the land of the damned but I've been there done that and even lived in a POS in a WH before Russians were kind enough to help me out...literally.

If you hate your situation please I invite you to live here in hi and an NPC corp will furnish you with a CQ and low overhead otherwise don't get upset because you made your bed now you have to live with it.
Wow, you really don't get it, do you? You really are so caught up in your own delusion that you cannot see the obvious problems.

Summary of EvEs last four expansions: http://imgur.com/ZL5SM33
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#67 - 2013-01-20 09:53:24 UTC
Cyprus Black wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:

Well then this is why null cant get their cht together cause nobody wants to make it work but want all the benefits.

Nobody can help null till null helps itself but it seems that instead of trying you want to resort to name calling when the light is turned on null to show that many of the vocal folks posting to nerf hi are full of it.
Your naivety is strong.

Look, players will ALWAYS choose the most efficient and cheap method available. It's far far cheaper to make it in highsec and have it shipped out to nullsec than to spend trillions of isk on incredibly risky and less efficient methods.

Gee, which would I choose?

Current method of nullsec residents:
-Building and/or purchase cost in highsec is very cheap.
-Cost of using a jump freighter to get all of it to nullsec is very cheap.
-Number of players necessary to successfully complete the haul is low.
-Time required to complete said method is only a few hours.

Your method:
-The cost of purchasing POS's, modules, and fuel is extremely high.
-The rate of manufacturing output is very low.
-The risk of the POS, and everything inside, getting destroyed is very high.
-Time required to haul in all those POS materials, setting them up, and maintaining them is ludicrously high.
-Number of players necessary to keep all those POS's fueled and running would require a moderate sized army.
-Players will still have to haul in raw minerals, materials, fuel and components in from highsec, thus defeating the entire purpose.
-POS mechanics are a buggy royal pain in the rear
(you would've never proposed this if you honestly had any dealings with POS management which we all know you haven't and are lying).



It seems it is YOU who cannot see the problem. Seriously, why are you defending such an obviously terrible and dysfunctional idea? You've been proven wrong on every point. Now you're just whining and are in denial.


And your making my point, why nerf hi sec if it's beneficial due to prohibitive cost doing it in null.
it's like taking a race car and pulling out the V8 and replacing it with a 4 cylinder engine and thinking your gonna win the race

I sit and wonder how the hell Goonswarm pulls off all the cht they doodoo, burn jita blah blah, my only guess is they must have a hell of crue manning the ship cause they do as they please.
They must be busy training, building, mining because they are one of the most successful corporations in game how the F do they doodoo it, freaking kudos to the most hated group in the game.

I myself may not approve of their tactics but they get results.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#68 - 2013-01-20 10:01:33 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
And your making my point, why nerf hi sec if it's beneficial due to prohibitive cost doing it in null.
it's like taking a race car and pulling out the V8 and replacing it with a 4 cylinder engine and thinking your gonna win the race

I sit and wonder how the hell Goonswarm pulls off all the cht they doodoo, burn jita blah blah, my only guess is they must have a hell of crue manning the ship cause they do as they please.
They must be busy training, building, mining because they are one of the most successful corporations in game how the F do they doodoo it, freaking kudos to the most hated group in the game.

I myself may not approve of their tactics but they get results.



Because when HS manufacturing is FREE and effectively UNLIMITED, there's no way to make Nullsec competitive by only buffing it.

So HS manufacturing slots need to cost some non-trivial amount for there to be any room for nullsec industry to be competitive. That's on top of radically increasing the manufacturing capacity in Nullsec.


The manufacturing that GSF members do is primarily done in HS. Because Industry in HS is Strictly Better than in Nullsec.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#69 - 2013-01-20 10:05:10 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Nicolo da'Vicenza wrote:
'give everyone in your alliance pos roles' - some highsec idiot


Well then this is why null cant get their cht together cause nobody wants to make it work but want all the benefits.

Nobody can help null till null helps itself but it seems that instead of trying you want to resort to name calling when the light is turned on null to show that many of the vocal folks posting to nerf hi are full of it.


You're deliberately being an idiot here or simply not understanding the risks of living in nullsec both in terms of normal gameplay security and the metagame.
In both cases this discussion is moot because your suggestion in the first place has been put down by a dozen people from null with seemingly far more knowledge and experience than you.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#70 - 2013-01-20 10:05:19 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Every system controlled by an Alliance has X systems in them with X number of planets with X number of moons.

At each moon a POS.

At each POS X amount of structures.

Each structures have how many slots means potentially hundreds of slots in one system alone.

In every region potential for thousands of slots running.

If CEO's can't get each corp member to anchor a POS and get them to produce, at the same time have a corp fund for buying fuel and logistical support for fuel or alliances not supporting logistical lines for this then why blame a broken null?
Seems more like inept leadership to me.

Now this; instead of spamming CCP for hi sec nerf why not ask for a new feature like NPC mercs to help guard their POS'es and assets.
this will help for players in Null not having to be on guard protecting moons all the time giving them more freedom to roam.


Hi there,

POS are very expensive buy and to run, extremely labor intensive, and only give 9 manufacturing slots. They're also vulnerable to destruction, and if you can't fuel them because you're unable to log in for some reaon, you can easily lose your entire investment and all your BPOs.

How on earth is this supposed to be competitive with manufacturing in hisec? I'm told Nonni has 550 manufacturing slots. That means it would take 62 POS to replicate that manufacturing capability, which would cost around 30 billion ISK a month to run, and something like 90 billion to set up. Not to mention the value of the player time - let's put it at a conservative 90 hours to set the whole thing up, and then an additional overhead of 3 hours per week per POS, coming to 270 player hours in the first month. Those additional hours could be spent running level 4s at 50M/hr (I picked that as a baseline income activity), adding another 13.5B to the head start.

And then of course there's the cost of the sov mdules, ihubs, etc etc. In any case even if you discount those, the alliance that follows your suggestion has just wasted ~135 billion ISK in the first month, when they could simply have done their manufacturing in hisec. No alliance, not even Goons, can possibly afford to inflict such a crippling disadvantage on themselves. You're asking us to fight opponents in T3s with Velators.

Nor is it obvious why they should do so when they can use immediately, virtually for free, with no effort, with no investment, with no running costs, with centralised logistics, with CONCORD protection, with no commitment, with no risk to their manufacturing assets, with no sov requirements, with no chance of being locked out of the station, with no risk of losing everything if they're forced AFK, any of the incredible number of manufacturing slots hi-sec offers. Can you give me a single reason why they should? Just so that you can continue to have every conceivable advantage and escape the possibility of having to pay a mere fraction of what they're worth?

"Let them eat cake", said Marie Antoinette.

"Let them manufacture in POS", says Piugattuk

"Die, aristo pig" saay we of nullsec.

Just accept it man. The situation is hideously imbalanced, there's no way to defend the imbalance, and there's no way it's not going to be rebalanced; all there really is to discuss is by exactly what and by how much.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#71 - 2013-01-20 10:06:06 UTC
Cyprus Black wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
You can build you just have to have the will, I anchored and ran 4 structures in my small POS.

I can build a tengu from raw materials but the cost of raw materials is the part where that cost thingy comes into play, did you know a T-3 can be built at a POS?
Of course you did, you make it sound like nothing can be done out of a POS and yet WH folks seem to manage it, even building Roqual in a C1 quite a feat but they do it, why cause they have the will.

I can see that you wish to believe you live in the land of the damned but I've been there done that and even lived in a POS in a WH before Russians were kind enough to help me out...literally.

If you hate your situation please I invite you to live here in hi and an NPC corp will furnish you with a CQ and low overhead otherwise don't get upset because you made your bed now you have to live with it.
Wow, you really don't get it, do you? You really are so caught up in your own delusion that you cannot see the obvious problems.

Ok I'm delusional but it still stands, you can anchor a POS at each of those moons can't you?
Your unwillingness to do so cause of risk means what, you have no will I still invite you to live here in hi sec.

I know there are issues regarding POS'es in 0.0, it's not insurmountable but there are ways to mitigate losses you just need to figure out creative ways to do stuff instead of worrying about hi sec slots and mechanics.
RubyPorto
RubysRhymes
#72 - 2013-01-20 10:08:53 UTC  |  Edited by: RubyPorto
Piugattuk wrote:

Ok I'm delusional but it still stands, you can anchor a POS at each of those moons can't you?
Your unwillingness to do so cause of risk means what, you have no will I still invite you to live here in hi sec.

I know there are issues regarding POS'es in 0.0, it's not insurmountable but there are ways to mitigate losses you just need to figure out creative ways to do stuff instead of worrying about hi sec slots and mechanics.


We have long since figured out the creative solution to the problem. We've been employing it to great success for a long, long time.

Here it is:

Make an Alt > Sit said alt in HS > Manufacture in the strictly better industrial environment of HS > Ship the Product to Jita for sale or JF the Product to Nullsec for use.


We are saying that we would prefer to be able to efficiently manufacture goods in the space we actually live in, thank you very much.

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." -Abrazzar "the risk of having your day ruined by other people is the cornerstone with which EVE was built" -CCP Solomon
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#73 - 2013-01-20 10:11:52 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Cyprus Black wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
You can build you just have to have the will, I anchored and ran 4 structures in my small POS.

I can build a tengu from raw materials but the cost of raw materials is the part where that cost thingy comes into play, did you know a T-3 can be built at a POS?
Of course you did, you make it sound like nothing can be done out of a POS and yet WH folks seem to manage it, even building Roqual in a C1 quite a feat but they do it, why cause they have the will.

I can see that you wish to believe you live in the land of the damned but I've been there done that and even lived in a POS in a WH before Russians were kind enough to help me out...literally.

If you hate your situation please I invite you to live here in hi and an NPC corp will furnish you with a CQ and low overhead otherwise don't get upset because you made your bed now you have to live with it.
Wow, you really don't get it, do you? You really are so caught up in your own delusion that you cannot see the obvious problems.

Ok I'm delusional but it still stands, you can anchor a POS at each of those moons can't you?
Your unwillingness to do so cause of risk means what, you have no will I still invite you to live here in hi sec.

I know there are issues regarding POS'es in 0.0, it's not insurmountable but there are ways to mitigate losses you just need to figure out creative ways to do stuff instead of worrying about hi sec slots and mechanics.


Why the hell would people deal with the problems of manufacturing in null when they can do it for CHEAPER and with less management in high sec? You are litterally telling people they should ignore thier cost. Any industrialist with an once of brain willo tell you it's a wrong way to do buisness to ignore your cost and not go for the cheaper/more efficient method of production.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#74 - 2013-01-20 10:12:56 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Cyprus Black wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
You can build you just have to have the will, I anchored and ran 4 structures in my small POS.

I can build a tengu from raw materials but the cost of raw materials is the part where that cost thingy comes into play, did you know a T-3 can be built at a POS?
Of course you did, you make it sound like nothing can be done out of a POS and yet WH folks seem to manage it, even building Roqual in a C1 quite a feat but they do it, why cause they have the will.

I can see that you wish to believe you live in the land of the damned but I've been there done that and even lived in a POS in a WH before Russians were kind enough to help me out...literally.

If you hate your situation please I invite you to live here in hi and an NPC corp will furnish you with a CQ and low overhead otherwise don't get upset because you made your bed now you have to live with it.
Wow, you really don't get it, do you? You really are so caught up in your own delusion that you cannot see the obvious problems.

Ok I'm delusional but it still stands, you can anchor a POS at each of those moons can't you?
Your unwillingness to do so cause of risk means what, you have no will I still invite you to live here in hi sec.

I know there are issues regarding POS'es in 0.0, it's not insurmountable but there are ways to mitigate losses you just need to figure out creative ways to do stuff instead of worrying about hi sec slots and mechanics.


Let's turn this around. Say CCP deleted all the NPC station manufacturing and research slots. You'd be fine with that because there are plenty of moons in Empire right?

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#75 - 2013-01-20 10:14:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Piugattuk wrote:
Cyprus Black wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
You can build you just have to have the will, I anchored and ran 4 structures in my small POS.

I can build a tengu from raw materials but the cost of raw materials is the part where that cost thingy comes into play, did you know a T-3 can be built at a POS?
Of course you did, you make it sound like nothing can be done out of a POS and yet WH folks seem to manage it, even building Roqual in a C1 quite a feat but they do it, why cause they have the will.

I can see that you wish to believe you live in the land of the damned but I've been there done that and even lived in a POS in a WH before Russians were kind enough to help me out...literally.

If you hate your situation please I invite you to live here in hi and an NPC corp will furnish you with a CQ and low overhead otherwise don't get upset because you made your bed now you have to live with it.
Wow, you really don't get it, do you? You really are so caught up in your own delusion that you cannot see the obvious problems.

Ok I'm delusional but it still stands, you can anchor a POS at each of those moons can't you?
Your unwillingness to do so cause of risk means what, you have no will I still invite you to live here in hi sec.

I know there are issues regarding POS'es in 0.0, it's not insurmountable but there are ways to mitigate losses you just need to figure out creative ways to do stuff instead of worrying about hi sec slots and mechanics.


Your unwillngness to pay a fair price for the facilities you use in hi-sec tells me that you have no will to do anything but continue enjoying a free ride.

See you on the barricades.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#76 - 2013-01-20 10:24:10 UTC
Just accept it man. The situation is hideously imbalanced, there's no way to defend the imbalance, and there's no way it's not going to be rebalanced; all there really is to discuss is by exactly what and by how much.[/quote]

I am going to surprise you, I agree Null needs an manufacturing industrialization badly absolutely give outposts the ability to have 100 or more slots, there is no perfect answer if there is no stations to do it, but every person going to null knows full well (or should) they are moving to the wilderness to be pioneers with wild injuns running about why is it so surprising that they don't have a wal-mart at their convince?

Many say bears are turning eve into carnival land but it seems bears aren't the only guilty here 0.0 was supposed to be tough.
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#77 - 2013-01-20 10:26:36 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Cyprus Black wrote:
Piugattuk wrote:
You can build you just have to have the will, I anchored and ran 4 structures in my small POS.

I can build a tengu from raw materials but the cost of raw materials is the part where that cost thingy comes into play, did you know a T-3 can be built at a POS?
Of course you did, you make it sound like nothing can be done out of a POS and yet WH folks seem to manage it, even building Roqual in a C1 quite a feat but they do it, why cause they have the will.

I can see that you wish to believe you live in the land of the damned but I've been there done that and even lived in a POS in a WH before Russians were kind enough to help me out...literally.

If you hate your situation please I invite you to live here in hi and an NPC corp will furnish you with a CQ and low overhead otherwise don't get upset because you made your bed now you have to live with it.
Wow, you really don't get it, do you? You really are so caught up in your own delusion that you cannot see the obvious problems.

Ok I'm delusional but it still stands...


I think you're simply unaware of the magnitude of the privileges you enjoy.

You're like a sheltered rich white kid in a gated community who thinks he's not racist, but that poor ethnics really have only themselves to blame if they don't go to an Ivy League college, make the best of their father's contacts and get a $120k job right away. Obviously they don't deserve to suffer, but man they could try a little harder, right?

Then one day he voices that opinion to somene who went to a highschool where there were weapon checks on the door and 1 teacher per 40 kids, and he gets his feelings hurt when he's told that he's a stupid ignorant idiot who has no idea how little of his success he owes to his own efforts.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Malcanis
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
#78 - 2013-01-20 10:29:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Malcanis
Malcanis wrote:
]Just accept it man. The situation is hideously imbalanced, there's no way to defend the imbalance, and there's no way it's not going to be rebalanced; all there really is to discuss is by exactly what and by how much.


Piugattuk wrote:

I am going to surprise you, I agree Null needs an manufacturing industrialization badly absolutely give outposts the ability to have 100 or more slots, there is no perfect answer if there is no stations to do it, but every person going to null knows full well (or should) they are moving to the wilderness to be pioneers with wild injuns running about why is it so surprising that they don't have a wal-mart at their convince?

Many say bears are turning eve into carnival land but it seems bears aren't the only guilty here 0.0 was supposed to be tough.


We're not asking for free Walmarts, like you in hi-sec get, we're asking for the ability to build our own Saks and Bloomingdales if we want to. At our own expense.

Oh and for hi-sec industry to stop receiving the illegal subsidies that allow it to dump underpriced products, making it impossible those of us who do have to pay for our own infrastructure, and protect it with our own efforts at our own expense, to compete fairly.

You get to complain when you pay for what you get yourself. Whilst your sucking on the NPC corp tit, and hiding behind daddy CONCORD, you can be quietly grateful for whatever deal you get.

"Just remember later that I warned against any change to jump ranges or fatigue. You earned whats coming."

Grath Telkin, 11.10.2016
Piugattuk
Litla Sundlaugin
#79 - 2013-01-20 10:38:14 UTC
Let me turn your moon table back around, how many are taken by 0.0 corps or their cronies, how many are taken by corporations not running them, war dec them sure as a bear I'm sure I can run them off.

I don't want to keep this up if you don't want POS'es and outposts are not cutting it then what is a reasonable solution?
NPC stations in every system?
If then there are NPC stations in every system then anyone can dock there or would SOV holders feel violated?

What would satisfy this dilemma? Nerfing hi sec isn't gonna help and lets increase the cost of manufacturing at NPC stations guess what...the cost get passed on.

Now what, don't just get on the train track, solutions give solutions for this.
Ammzi
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
#80 - 2013-01-20 10:44:54 UTC
Piugattuk wrote:
Let me turn your moon table back around, how many are taken by 0.0 corps or their cronies, how many are taken by corporations not running them, war dec them sure as a bear I'm sure I can run them off.

I don't want to keep this up if you don't want POS'es and outposts are not cutting it then what is a reasonable solution?
NPC stations in every system?
If then there are NPC stations in every system then anyone can dock there or would SOV holders feel violated?

What would satisfy this dilemma? Nerfing hi sec isn't gonna help and lets increase the cost of manufacturing at NPC stations guess what...the cost get passed on.

Now what, don't just get on the train track, solutions give solutions for this.


Awesome super ores with crazy concentration of low end ores. Big smile