EVE General Discussion

…except that null has plenty of interest in the industry process, which is why they understand it better the the highsec dweller who keeps asking why they don't just do it i null, and that in this particular case, a highsec nerf is pretty much required in order to make things balanced — a simply null buff isn't enough to outweigh the inherent advantages in everything industry related that highsec offers.

But... but... if we do that, he won't learn!

Trolling involves baiting for the sake of arguments, I have neither been baiting nor arguing but you know I rest my case on how to fix manufacturing in null, now you can see what the devs and gm's have to deal with.

There is no perfect solution but the closest we can get is to;

1. Outposts are on par with NPC stations.

2. Null gets a 100% refine

3. SOV holders can build as many outposts as they please in their system their holding.

4. Supersize roids so they can actually build anything they want easier.

5. Outposts have 200 manufacturing slots each and plentiful amount of research and copy slots too.

I think this would cover all the disparity between hi and null without destroying hi sec and give null competitive edge with hi.

Thank you for discussion people, I'm out of the thread.

Which High Sec nerf are you talking about? Please be specific.

No, that's still not enough, partly because the numbers aren't big enough but primarily because it doesn't include the required highsec nerfs to make it worth-while actually use those slots.

So let's try this on for size:
1. One outpost per system probably has to remain for sov reasons.
2. Every outpost type gets 50 each of every industry slot type. Industry-specific outposts get twice that (up from a best-case scenario of 10 each).
3. Every outpost type gets 20 offices; Gallente outposts get twice that (up from 4–8 / 24).
3. Every outpost type gets a 30% refinery; a 50% refinery is a single basic upgrade.
4. Basic industry upgrades add 50 each of every slot type (up from 5 of a specific type); Intermediate upgrades add 100 (up from 7); Advanced upgrades add 150 (up from 9). Time bonuses could probably remain the same.

…and with that, a single fully upgraded null system has the same capacity as a the best highsec systems. Maybe some highsec slots still need to be removed just to make null strictly better in this regard. Then there needs to be something to compensate for the expense and inherent risks of setting up such a system:

5. All NPC station industrial fees are increased by a factor of 1,000. (×500 to bring it up to POS expense level and make it worth-while to use those even in highsec, and another ×2 to pay for the inability to lose these capabilities).

…and maybe something to disincentivise moving large material transfers between stations and instead to do the whole thing in as few steps (read: as locally) as possible?

6. PI-style import and export fees for base materials when transferring to and from NPC stations — the exact tariffs can be discussed, as can whether mineral compression should work around these expenses.


Does it seem extreme? Maybe, but that's about the scale of what would need to happen to make null manufacturing worth-while compared to just doing it all in high and importing the resulting goods. The extreme requirements are a direct result of the incredibly high baseline set by highsec, and the only other solution is to drastically reduce that baseline (as in: cut the number of available station slots by roughly 95%, and still add in those rental increases).

You have never been to null, have you? Everything tech 2 comes from null. Every supercapital in existence is built in null. There is plenty of interest in industry in null, but we're not all building drakes and heavy missiles. Industry is a pain in the ass, margins are slim, and to be honest there is more ISK to be made ratting than with industry. We build what we need, import what we can't find, and sell what we have too much of.

Most of us who do actually do industry in null do it on a small scale to meet personal goals. Large projects are set by alliances and involve the participation of many people to avoid burning out any single person. But industry for profit? It's hard to match 30-40M bounty ticks with industry. And if you make more industry, you will just drive prices and profits DOWN. If you make more bounties, you will flood the market with meaningless ISK. What EVE needs is more death and fewer care-bears.

Dear god my good man why are you just telling me this now! I spent all of 2012 making 5 bill a month by building t3 hulls with all my materials sourced from Jita 4-4 and selling more than half to buy orders because I'm lazy. Had you you informed me of this earlier I would have stopped fillng my wallet with ISK and done something more profitable instead

TL:DR you're fecking **** at maths and opportunity cost. You actually think people buy hybrid components?

Im also going to assume you didn't figure in the BPC cost of the tengu as well based on your quoted figure as it seems close to fail build cost. Before you start throwing around figures you should really do more research.