Ships & Modules

I think it does the things the vagabond is generally popular for more effectively (which is tough to disagree with) - nano faging from 30km with a few friends against slower targets or a larger force generally being why i'll fly a vaga. In-fact the 2 things a talos doesn't do better than a vagabond is raw speed and tracking against smaller targets (since higher dps of the talos with lower falloff still equates to similar dps across a variety of ranges). This is made up for by the Talos ability to use a 100MN AB and still be effective, this kills the vagabonds terrible fitting when trying 100mn fits.

Long story short: You have diluted this argument down to the pointless statements such as:

"But it's not competing with the Vagabond any more than the Megathron does."

Which is pretty much stupid and you damn well know it. The fact both ships have the same weapon bonuses doesn't put them in the same category and you cant honestly argue it does.

Apply some gang links to a talos and it reaches speeds that are acceptable in a nano-kiting scenario versus less mobile force. Agaisnt another nano-gang it may not be as fast, but every ship is limited by the range of warp disruption (which means straight line speed is pointless when both ships are hitting each other for similar damage at the engagement range) and if an MWD talos decides to straight-line any non mwd fit (read non 100mn-ab fit) it will catch it and it has terrifying dps for a ship with that kind of speed. It's EHP is comparable to a vagabond, which rules out that aspect and what are you left with?

A ship that has the same effect DPS ranges, EHP but lower speed and massively better DPS than a vagabond.

i think that is the point. If i was going to do anything other than killing frigs, i'd take a nado or talos. And even then, i've had pretty solid results smashing frigs with the nado. And again, if the point is killing frigs you wouldn't take a vagabond anyway - there are much better ships like the huginn.

and do address your point: " but I think everyone with a brain has already drawn the correct conclusion: the problem isn't that the Talos (or Tier 3s) obsolete the Vagabond because it doesn't compete for the same role."

No, i disagree. Everyone with a brain has stopped replying due to being drop-kicked by walls of texts from a few immovable objects. Their opinion makes no difference and they realised that. That being said, its 2am and i have lost my common sense and decided to post.

P.s. what is this role you think the vagabond plays that the talos doesn't even come close to? I cba reading 59pages of trash to re-find it.

:(, your right with the rest of this post but this is kind of a noob forum so if i leave his bullshit staying without comment someone might atually believe what he says!

God damn, parsing the grammar in this was painful. Yes, like I said many times: I see the argument for the 100mn Talos obsoleting the Vagabond. I don't really agree because it's still quite vulnerable to frigates, which exceedingly common. The Vagabond is superior at killing small fry and has much better agility. When 100mn fit (it can be done with the same kinds of general trade offs), the Vaga has much better damage mitigation and a similar sized raw tank.



See, the source of this assertion is that the Tuskers guys keep claiming that the only requisite for obsoleting the Vagabond is the ability to go 1200-1600 m/s and project a lot of damage from range. The Mega's able to fulfill both of those requirements and maintain a similar/superior sized raw HP tank. So is it a stupid thing to say? Yes. Am I saying it for a reason? Yes, because it's relevant to the argument we're having and has been specifically acknowledged as a Vagabond-obsoleter.



The biggest thing that's wrong with this (IMO) is the assertion that the 10mn Talos will catch up to and kill the 100mn fit. I've repeatedly seen people try to do this but they consistently fail to do it. It's not that they can't catch me - they can - it's that they can't actually apply any damage while I apply it perfectly to their moon sized sig radius.

Again, I'm not saying that the Talos and Tier 3s in general aren't fantastic for nano fagging about I'm saying that they don't obsolete the Vagabond because they're quite a bit slower and have glaring weaknesses to the most common and easily obtained ships in the game. They're great DPS machines with a light tank, and they're fun as hell to fly and lose. But you're gonna lose them way more often than you'll lose a Vaga.

-Liang

No, W0lf, I did not bring up the 100mn Talos fit. You did, in post #75. You did again just a couple of pages ago when you decided to **** up this forum with your blathering idiocy. Additionally, nobody is saying that cruisers dont 100mn well, but there's some problems with them (namely capacitor and agility).

With regards to your numbered assertions:
1. No, it doesn't obsolete the Vagabond. Simply slapping a MWD and a couple of TEs on something doesn't make it "nano".
2. Yes, that's true. Don't do that.
3. You don't need the snakes. But yes, it is definitely better than a 10mn Talos for the blob engagements I aim for.
4. No, it really doesn't. It's too vulnerable to the most common ships in the game. It's also not very fast and very very easily catchable.


Thank you for the admission in #3. I would have preferred a "Heretics are better than Tuskers" though. ;-)

-Liang

What's that? Someone --- like someone named W0lf Crendraven --- might believe the bullshit I say about how my ship flies?

Amazing.

-Liang

If another talos direct line approaches you they will get in range. You are assuming that your "fly at an angle" strategy is unbeatable. I really don't understand why you are making this pointless argument. Both ships have the same combat ranges - by fitting a 100mn you are almost certainly having to down grade from neutrons, which means a 10mn talos doesnt even NEED to approach you, he has better effective range with neutrons anyway... He can sit stationary and he will have identical tracking to you (perhaps a little different since ion's would track better marginally). In the end that scenario comes down to tank, not mobility... or maybe lucky ec-300 jams.

Either way a 1v1 talos situation as you describe wouldn't happen unless you where against a rookie pilot who couldnt recognise a 100mn fit when he saw one. I'd hate to meet a neutron talos in an ion-100mn fit, cause the MWD talos can bail out of disruptor range if he thinks for a second hes going to loose, and you can do nothing about it. He KNOWS you can't out-dps him, so he wont bother approaching you or trying to get under your guns.. he'll just smash you until you realise your loosing and try to bail out... then straight line speed starts to matter.

Again, i dont want to get dragged into this argument and re-ignite it, but personal vendettas aside - the vagabond is NOT designed to kill frigates, so you will not fly one if that's what you want to do. Neither will you fly a talos for this.

If you want to sit at range and pick peoples HP apart without risking scram/web the vagabond can do this, but the talos can do it better but will NOT have the straight line speed of the vagabond.

That matters little though because anything that CAN catch it CAN'T out DPS it.

I think we're going to have to agree to disagree about 1200 m/s being an acceptable kiting speed. You can do it but damn near everything in the game is faster than you now. It's not even hard to push battleships up that high. And in context of the thread - how these kinds of ships make the Vagabond obsolete - I'm just going to have to say: LOL.

-Liang

W0lf, I think you were reading things into my posts that weren't really there. I didn't say anything about a "10mn Talos" or "the 10mn Talos" or anything like that. I said [that[/i] Talos fit, specifically, was not something that obsoleted the Vagabond and was (IMO) a terrible fit. You proceeded to talk and talk and talk about something that was never part of the discussion.

With regards to me being wrong "on technicalities"... I wouldn't really agree. We were discussing nano snaked linked 10mn Taloses and how they made Vagabonds obsolete, and I freely admitted that I had links with my 100mn Talos. I never denied it and explicitly acknowledged it. I'm not sure how that constitutes misleading you. But whatever makes you feel better bro.



Assuming that we have equal links on both sides, this statement is ... not correct. Unless I'm missing something about your Vaga fit?

-Liang

No im talking about unliked vaga vs linked talos! (as once you reach a certain point of speed it doesnt really ehlp, you dont tank more and once your faster than normal frigates your done, it doesnt hurt but its no big plus anymore so even a linked vaga isnt better then a linked talos)!

"that" fit was one og the standard 10mn talos fits so it pretty ok to generalize it imo!

Last time I looked at the numbers a 3 TE / Ion Talos has about the same range and way better tracking than a Neutron Talos. I guess I could be wrong though. I mean, it's not like I've repeatedly and specifically said I built the fit around damage mitigation and tracking. It's almost like someone put together a ship to force a certain kind of engagement..... ?



The Vagabond has never really been great at killing anything. It should not be news that there's a ship out there that's better at killing things. What the Vagabond has always been best at is engaging on its own terms. Which it's still better at doing than the Talos.

-Liang