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Talos needs to be nerfed. Long live the Vagabond!

First post
Author
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#201 - 2012-12-18 03:19:55 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
No im talking about unliked vaga vs linked talos! (as once you reach a certain point of speed it doesnt really ehlp, you dont tank more and once your faster than normal frigates your done, it doesnt hurt but its no big plus anymore so even a linked vaga isnt better then a linked talos)!


Ok, cool... a linked ship is faster than an unlinked ship. Exciting news at 11.

Quote:
"that" fit was one og the standard 10mn talos fits so it pretty ok to generalize it imo!


There was absolutely no reason to generalize it to speaking about 10mn fits vs 100mn fits. You read that into my argument, and even still it has nothing to do with the discussion at hand.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#202 - 2012-12-18 03:24:20 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

I never claimed that any ship going 1300m/s is making the vagabond obsolete!

In fact i only claimed that they were viable kiting ships thats all!


You claimed it via this line of reasoning:
- The Talos goes 1600 m/s and does better damage than the Vagabond. It obsoletes the Vagabond.
- All Kiting ships that put out better damage than the Vagabond obsolete the Vagabond.
- Ranged DPS ships that go faster than 1200 m/s are good kiting ships.

=> Ranged DPS ships that go faster than 1200 m/s and put out better damage than the Vagabond obsolete the Vagabond.

In context of the discussion - whether a ship obsoletes the Vagabond - I have only this to say: LOL.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#203 - 2012-12-18 03:24:57 UTC
You claimed it was better (under the pretext that it waa truesolo) which it isnt!

Yes its faster and no that nothing new, it just means that with force multipliers the talos is better then the vaga due to high enough speed, extreme dps, good range! We obviously cant decide about the true solo 10n talos!

It is faster than a truesolo vaga which emans it can engage at its own terms as much as it wants, but its better at most of the other stuff aswell (frigs beeing the exception)!





(seeing as it makes no difference if the vaga is snaked/linked or not, its fast enough either way so the linked/snaked 10mn talos obsoletes the vaga)
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#204 - 2012-12-18 03:29:41 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

I never claimed that any ship going 1300m/s is making the vagabond obsolete!

In fact i only claimed that they were viable kiting ships thats all!


You claimed it via this line of reasoning:
- The Talos goes 1600 m/s and does better damage than the Vagabond. It obsoletes the Vagabond.
- All Kiting ships that put out better damage than the Vagabond obsolete the Vagabond.
- Ranged DPS ships that go faster than 1200 m/s are good kiting ships.

=> Ranged DPS ships that go faster than 1200 m/s and put out better damage than the Vagabond obsolete the Vagabond.

In context of the discussion - whether a ship obsoletes the Vagabond - I have only this to say: LOL.

-Liang


I never claimed that all kiting ships that put out better damage obsolete the vaga, your reading to much into this! I said that tier3s do (well mainly the talos) but thats it!

My point was 1600m/s base mwd speed is fast enough to kite, as is 1300m/s! Beeing able to kite doesnt mean by default that they obsolete the vaga!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#205 - 2012-12-18 03:30:49 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
You claimed it was better (under the pretext that it waa truesolo) which it isnt!

Yes its faster and no that nothing new, it just means that with force multipliers the talos is better then the vaga due to high enough speed, extreme dps, good range! We obviously cant decide about the true solo 10n talos!

It is faster than a truesolo vaga which emans it can engage at its own terms as much as it wants, but its better at most of the other stuff aswell (frigs beeing the exception)!


The thing about it is that TrueSolo neither Talos is going to kill the Vaga. And once we start talking about gangs of people engaging a TrueSolo guy... well, BIG SURPRISE, GANGS WIN. Roll

Quote:
(seeing as it makes no difference if the vaga is snaked/linked or not, its fast enough either way so the linked/snaked 10mn talos obsoletes the vaga)


/facepalm

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#206 - 2012-12-18 03:32:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

I never claimed that all kiting ships that put out better damage obsolete the vaga, your reading to much into this! I said that tier3s do (well mainly the talos) but thats it!

My point was 1600m/s base mwd speed is fast enough to kite, as is 1300m/s! Beeing able to kite doesnt mean by default that they obsolete the vaga!


Ok, so what is it that makes them obsolete the Vagabond? The raw damage? The range? The ability to kite with raw damage and range? What, specifically, is it?

-Liang

Ed: Since you're so damn fond of EFT, what EFT stats are required to obsolete the Vagabond?

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#207 - 2012-12-18 03:35:05 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

I never claimed that all kiting ships that put out better damage obsolete the vaga, your reading to much into this! I said that tier3s do (well mainly the talos) but thats it!

My point was 1600m/s base mwd speed is fast enough to kite, as is 1300m/s! Beeing able to kite doesnt mean by default that they obsolete the vaga!


Ok, so what is it that makes them obsolete the Vagabond? The raw damage? The range? The ability to kite with raw damage and range? What, specifically, is it?

-Liang

Ed: Since you're so damn fond of EFT, what EFT stats are required to obsolete the Vagabond?


The ability to kill what can outrun them and to outrun what they cant kill!
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#208 - 2012-12-18 03:35:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
Vaga is vastly more speedy and agile and has better tracking (not to mention better tank because of T2 resists). Talos has twice the damage but is slower, has poorer tracking and is less agile.... I'm sorry but why does this thread even exist?
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#209 - 2012-12-18 03:36:42 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
You claimed it was better (under the pretext that it waa truesolo) which it isnt!

Yes its faster and no that nothing new, it just means that with force multipliers the talos is better then the vaga due to high enough speed, extreme dps, good range! We obviously cant decide about the true solo 10n talos!

It is faster than a truesolo vaga which emans it can engage at its own terms as much as it wants, but its better at most of the other stuff aswell (frigs beeing the exception)!


The thing about it is that TrueSolo neither Talos is going to kill the Vaga. And once we start talking about gangs of people engaging a TrueSolo guy... well, BIG SURPRISE, GANGS WIN. Roll


-Liang


No, mwd taloi kill vagas all day long (many many pvp videos that have been released can prove that to you)!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#210 - 2012-12-18 03:39:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
The ability to kill what can outrun them and to outrun what they cant kill!


That doesn't feel like a particularly good criteria. Let's try something more concrete?

-Liang

Ed: I went back and read the thread again. You were pretty emphatic that 1600 m/s is fast enough to obsolete the Vagabond. True/False?

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#211 - 2012-12-18 03:41:26 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
No, mwd taloi kill vagas all day long (many many pvp videos that have been released can prove that to you)!


I have videos of me tanking 2 SFI, a Vexor Navy, Ferox, Claw, and Raven in a Harpy. That doesn't mean it's particularly common or happens "all day long". Do I doubt that the Talos can kill Vagas? No, not really. Do I doubt that Vagas can kill the Talos? No, not really.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Iyacia Cyric'ai
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#212 - 2012-12-18 03:46:48 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
You claimed it was better (under the pretext that it waa truesolo) which it isnt!

Yes its faster and no that nothing new, it just means that with force multipliers the talos is better then the vaga due to high enough speed, extreme dps, good range! We obviously cant decide about the true solo 10n talos!

It is faster than a truesolo vaga which emans it can engage at its own terms as much as it wants, but its better at most of the other stuff aswell (frigs beeing the exception)!


The thing about it is that TrueSolo neither Talos is going to kill the Vaga. And once we start talking about gangs of people engaging a TrueSolo guy... well, BIG SURPRISE, GANGS WIN. Roll


-Liang


No, mwd taloi kill vagas all day long (many many pvp videos that have been released can prove that to you)!

There are also videos of vaga pilots soloing taloses. Kovorix has one where he 1v2ed a Hurricane and a Talos in his Vaga. Pilot skill has a lot to do with the outcome of those battles and it doesn't prove anything or change the fact that a vagabond is considerably faster and that if a non-noob vaga pilot doesn't want to engage a Talos pilot, the Talos pilot will simply never catch the Vaga pilot.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#213 - 2012-12-18 04:01:39 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
The ability to kill what can outrun them and to outrun what they cant kill!


That doesn't feel like a particularly good criteria. Let's try something more concrete?

-Liang

Ed: I went back and read the thread again. You were pretty emphatic that 1600 m/s is fast enough to obsolete the Vagabond. True/False?


As a base mwd speed yes!
Jester Cap
A better day
#214 - 2012-12-18 05:19:07 UTC
Red Teufel wrote:
there is believing and then there are facts. you sir are a believer. you believe your OP vaga isn't OP enough and should be able to fight every ship in the game and win. sorry to say the old days of winmatar are over...you have to now contend with new types of ships capable of pooping you. and if you care to cry some more....because i do enjoy your tears. I herd nothing about web drones in this thread about nerfing your vaga. yes i **** nano gangs and i love farming supposed elite pvp tears. mmm those are the best.


^ This. Best posting.

Here is what makes Vaga obsolete:

Vaga: 180 mil ISK
Minmatar Cruiser 5, Minmatar Frigate 4, Heavy Assault Ships 1, Assault Ships 4, Engineering 5, Mechanics 5, Weapon Upgrades 5], Gunnery 2, Spaceship Command 5


Talos: 90 mil ISK
Gallente Cruiser 3, Gallente Frigate 4, Battlecruisers 3, Spaceship Command 4

OP and all elitists are raging about an SP and ISK affordable hull that kicks ass. Nerfing Agility won't change that one bit.

As a poster said before. This only results is more fun and PvP for everyone. The elitsts of course will shed tears for their elitist ships that are now not the undisputed King of the Hill anymore and aside from elitist dreams totally obsolete due to the fact that you get marginal performance increase with a huge ISK and SP investment. Keep your Vaga, me and my low ISK and low SP mate will come and polish the hull of your slave/link Vaga for you, Blaster style. The feast on elitist tears may continue.
Taoist Dragon
SHAVED
#215 - 2012-12-18 05:53:44 UTC
Hmm I guess the age of winmatar may well be over....


But guess what. That just make me want to fly them even more Shocked

With the entire ship line up rebalance it will be interesting what happens when the T2 get done....probably get a lot of T1 BC's pilots whinging that 'oh no the HAC's are kicking my arse...again!' threads.

Get over it people adapt to the newly revamped ships and keep yer vaga's and whatnot in storage till the day they get their overhaul then go out an pew pew the insulters repeated :)

If in doubt just fit up a rifter and go down in style!

That is the Way, the Tao.

Balance is everything.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#216 - 2012-12-18 06:43:50 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Liang Nuren wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
The ability to kill what can outrun them and to outrun what they cant kill!


That doesn't feel like a particularly good criteria. Let's try something more concrete?

-Liang

Ed: I went back and read the thread again. You were pretty emphatic that 1600 m/s is fast enough to obsolete the Vagabond. True/False?


As a base mwd speed yes!


So by this definition a Typhoon obsoletes the Vagabond (and always has!) by virtue of having a 1600 m/s base MWD speed, 40k EHP, 900 DPS, superior range, heavy neuts, and "tracking doesn't matter"? It probably also obsoletes the Talos...

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#217 - 2012-12-18 06:58:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Maeltstome wrote:
If another talos direct line approaches you they will get in range. You are assuming that your "fly at an angle" strategy is unbeatable. I really don't understand why you are making this pointless argument. Both ships have the same combat ranges - by fitting a 100mn you are almost certainly having to down grade from neutrons, which means a 10mn talos doesnt even NEED to approach you, he has better effective range with neutrons anyway... He can sit stationary and he will have identical tracking to you (perhaps a little different since ion's would track better marginally). In the end that scenario comes down to tank, not mobility... or maybe lucky ec-300 jams.


Ok, since we decided to theory craft I decided to look at this once I got home. My initial suspicions were correct: turret vs turret the damage difference between the 100mn Ion Talos I fly and the suggested stationary 10mn Neutron Talos is pretty minimal - pretty much nobody's gonna be hitting. The fight will in all likelihood be won by drones - which means the Ion Talos will probably win by nano-web-blapping the 10mn Talos's drones.

However, the game changes radically once the 10mn Talos lights up his MWD. This makes him five times easier to hit as compared to the 100mn Talos. Suddenly the 100mn Talos is going to be doing ~550 DPS to him while he bum rushes the Ion Talos. The Ion Talos, on the other hand, will continue to only take ~50 DPS from the 10mn Neutron Talos. This is because it's no longer an "equal turrets" thing - one guy just got super easy to hit.

I have a feeling that the only time you'd be correct about the 10mn Talos winning is if the 100mn Talos literally straight lined until he died. This is, of course, "2v2" 100mn Ion Talos/Links vs 10mn Neutron Talos/Links/Snakes.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Smabs
Perkone
Caldari State
#218 - 2012-12-18 08:09:10 UTC
Look I know your 100mn talos with no damage mods might be literally 10 times better than anything in every way ever, but you're double and triple posting and writing walls of text and at this point people aren't even reading it.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#219 - 2012-12-18 11:40:23 UTC
Is liang going off the deep end again? Justification of bad fits always makes me lol. Keep up the comedy act liang Lol
Iyacia Cyric'ai
Stimulus
Rote Kapelle
#220 - 2012-12-18 12:09:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Iyacia Cyric'ai
Jester Cap wrote:
Here is what makes Vaga obsolete:

Vaga: 180 mil ISK
Minmatar Cruiser 5, Minmatar Frigate 4, Heavy Assault Ships 1, Assault Ships 4, Engineering 5, Mechanics 5, Weapon Upgrades 5], Gunnery 2, Spaceship Command 5


Talos: 90 mil ISK
Gallente Cruiser 3, Gallente Frigate 4, Battlecruisers 3, Spaceship Command 4

OP and all elitists are raging about an SP and ISK affordable hull that kicks ass. Nerfing Agility won't change that one bit.

As a poster said before. This only results is more fun and PvP for everyone. The elitsts of course will shed tears for their elitist ships that are now not the undisputed King of the Hill anymore and aside from elitist dreams totally obsolete due to the fact that you get marginal performance increase with a huge ISK and SP investment. Keep your Vaga, me and my low ISK and low SP mate will come and polish the hull of your slave/link Vaga for you, Blaster style. The feast on elitist tears may continue.
Lol slave vaga... okay ignoring the hilarious hurr durr there, let's get serious as to why your post is poorly thought out.

Talos requires T2 Large Hybrids to work well since you need null to effectively kite and most of those requisite support skills for the Vaga are also pretty much requisites to fit and fly a Talos well. Therefore very little if any difference in requisite skill points to fly each of these ships well in PvP. Even without this though, price and skill is certainly not the issue and rarely is for PvP. People are generally very willing to pay a considerable amount more if it means winning and blowing up your opponent and escaping in structure against losing your entire ship.

Vagabond is not made obsolete by the Talos. Vaga kills frigs far easier and is better at choosing engagements. Talos makes mince of other BCs while being viable as a solo boat because of tracking bonus and drones BUT is still at a high risk against tacklers. Both ships have distinct strengths and weaknesses over each other.