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Talos needs to be nerfed. Long live the Vagabond!

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Author
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#161 - 2012-12-17 21:57:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
So your saying im doing everything i can to make it easier for the cane by not giving it snakes/links/heat?

Also its going so slow because thats its topspeed!


The top speed of that Talos fit is 3.2km/s or so. This is a fact you agreed with earlier in the thread so I'm not sure why this is suddenly a problem.

-Liang

Ed: Either way, please note that we're already mitigating 50% of the DPS that would be applied to your shield gank 10mn Talos. That's far more than the 20% you stated earlier - and it goes a lot further as the number of people shooting you goes up.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#162 - 2012-12-17 22:08:42 UTC
Yes if they move away from you, you move at a 90° angle and you already are at your topspeed!

And the top speed of that fit is without implants/links 2440m/s with heat, or 1740 withoutt!

(with links, impants and heat you get 4348m/s)

A more relaistic variant would be you moving at 70% of your speed, moving away from him (but trying to keep transversal say you maybe burn at a 70° angle to him with him burning for you which would result in: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=33vbxap&s=6
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#163 - 2012-12-17 22:30:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Yes if they move away from you, you move at a 90° angle and you already are at your topspeed!

And the top speed of that fit is without implants/links 2440m/s with heat, or 1740 withoutt!

(with links, impants and heat you get 4348m/s)

A more relaistic variant would be you moving at 70% of your speed, moving away from him (but trying to keep transversal say you maybe burn at a 70° angle to him with him burning for you which would result in: http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=33vbxap&s=6


I just went back and watched some videos of me in that Talos. I'm pretty much always going > 2km/s and most of the time 2.2km/s. When I am under attack, I overheat the AB and I'm usually going 2800-3km/s. I tend not to run directly away from the enemy, but instead try to go perpendicular* to them. Basically, you could have the Cane bum rush me and me going off to the side.

I love how your "more realistic" version has me going 1300m/s.

-Liang

Ed: Bear in mind that I'm not saying I don't take damage from medium guns. I'm saying it mitigates damage pretty well. Why are you so reluctant to post a graph of a 3km/s 100mn AB Talos despite the fact that I not only claim that's how I fly it -- I prove it by posting videos of me doing it. Roll

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#164 - 2012-12-17 22:41:02 UTC
Your top speed (without links) is 1740m/s you cant deny that and imo we dont discuss snaked/linked taloi here we just discuss the ship in itself , if your going off to the side and he apporaching you you dont pull any range at all (if youd adjuts your position every second) if he woundt move you would stay at exactly the starting range, if you just pull to the side and then keep burning straght ahead the situaution will be pretty soon what my "realistical" image was!

And your going at 1350m/s because thats what 70% of your speed is, with an agility of 18seconds you will never reach topspeed so soon, especially not if you make any turns at all!
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#165 - 2012-12-17 22:57:31 UTC
Look i agree that the 100mn fit becomes awesome and can tank a load of damage IF its linked/snaked + has some other implants, but do you want to assume for this dicussion that you are linked/snaked and the opponents isnt (beacuse once you introduce 19km webs all damage miagtion is pretty much nill)?
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#166 - 2012-12-17 23:09:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Your top speed (without links) is 1740m/s you cant deny that and imo we dont discuss snaked/linked taloi here we just discuss the ship in itself , if your going off to the side and he apporaching you you dont pull any range at all (if youd adjuts your position every second) if he woundt move you would stay at exactly the starting range, if you just pull to the side and then keep burning straght ahead the situaution will be pretty soon what my "realistical" image was!

And your going at 1350m/s because thats what 70% of your speed is, with an agility of 18seconds you will never reach topspeed so soon, especially not if you make any turns at all!


Aww come on man, just put an end to the discussion. Post a graph of damage mitigation at 80-90% of my top speed of 3.2km/s. Show me that I don't get any damage mitgation from medium guns.

-Liang

Ed: You've jumped through a million hoops to avoid showing this graph. But the truth - and we both know it - is that there's significant damage mitigation from medium guns. The truth is that you've been talking out your ass about how the ship is flown and the properties of the fit. The truth is you didn't understand how much damage mitigation comes from a 100mn fit ("it tops out at 1/5!!!!!!!!!!!").

The truth is that you didn't know what the **** you were talking about in this thread.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#167 - 2012-12-17 23:12:16 UTC
Noisrevbus wrote:
Interesting but complicated stuff.

So, if I understand correctly and sum it up, tiericide bringing T1 power too close from T2 power is a problem for up engagement ? Because T1 is bottom cost (which mean, if I understand correctly, nothing or not far enough from it) whereas T2 is very risky (because expensive) ?

I think you underestimate ship performance and tier 3 BC price. As I said, a Talos is still half the price of a Deimos (full T2 fit).

Also, you cannot force people to fly ships they think to be too expensive for them. What would be the solution ? Making ships too expensive for people will lead to less people flying too.

And as Liang said, there's also those people who only wnt to blow up stuff, for sport.

Also, you spoke about resources without talking about minerals. I don't know if it's really relevant here exactly, but considering how prices inflate this year because of them, and because your analyzis seem a least partialy including economy, I think its important too.

About the tracking debate, here a thing :
If Sig radius equal sig resolution, you need Tracking*Range to be 4 times the Transversale speed to score 95% hit chance.

In the case of our Talos, that is 1700*4 ; considering a medium weapon with less than 0,2rad/s tracking, that is 34km (sig radius compensate for weapon tracking who are badly estimated here ; lr ammo kill your tracking, but real numbers would be close from this). Any km below make the Talos harder to track (it's not linear, so it will be a *lot* harder at point range).

I then tend to think Liang is better at math than W0lf.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#168 - 2012-12-17 23:21:30 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Your top speed (without links) is 1740m/s you cant deny that and imo we dont discuss snaked/linked taloi here we just discuss the ship in itself , if your going off to the side and he apporaching you you dont pull any range at all (if youd adjuts your position every second) if he woundt move you would stay at exactly the starting range, if you just pull to the side and then keep burning straght ahead the situaution will be pretty soon what my "realistical" image was!

And your going at 1350m/s because thats what 70% of your speed is, with an agility of 18seconds you will never reach topspeed so soon, especially not if you make any turns at all!


Aww come on man, just put an end to the discussion. Post a graph of damage mitigation at 80-90% of my top speed of 3.2km/s. Show me that I don't get any damage mitgation from medium guns.

-Liang

Ed: You've jumped through a million hoops to avoid showing this graph. But the truth - and we both know it - is that there's significant damage mitigation from medium guns. The truth is that you've been talking out your ass about how the ship is flown and the properties of the fit. The truth is you didn't understand how much damage mitigation comes from a 100mn fit ("it tops out at 1/5!!!!!!!!!!!").

The truth is that you didn't know what the **** you were talking about in this thread.


Your top speed isnt 3.2km/s, it 1740m/s or 2440 with heat, are you simple or what? Plug your fit into eft and see for yourself!

With hg snakes/zors you get 3190m/s with heat so we will take that (which still is complete off the point but anyways)

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2ef5kza&s=6 over 80% going complete sidewys vs a pretty much unmoving target!

(to the other guy, im not doing the math eft is!)

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#169 - 2012-12-17 23:35:27 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

Your top speed isnt 3.2km/s, it 1740m/s or 2440 with heat, are you simple or what? Plug your fit into eft and see for yourself!

With hg snakes/zors you get 3190m/s with heat so we will take that (which still is complete off the point but anyways)

http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=2ef5kza&s=6 over 80% going complete sidewys vs a pretty much unmoving target!

(to the other guy, im not doing the math eft is!)


I appreciate the fact that you've thrown snakes into the equation, but that's not the graph I've spent the last two pages asking for. I feel like what I'm asking for is very very reasonable and useful outside of just low sec. Just to make sure that we're very clear, these are the exact requirements:
- Links
- No snakes
- Overheated AB
- 3km/s

Just to make sure that you understand why I'm being picky about the graph:
- Links are ubiquitous.
- Links decrease your sig radius.
- The overheat increases your speed but doesn't increase your sig radius.
- This is how I actually fly the ship.
- This doesn't involve billions invested in Snakes (which I feel is your way of showing how "unreasonable" I'm being)
- There are no links to help the Hurricane's damage projection or tracking.

At any rate, I appreciate you confirming that a heavily tracking enhanced Hurricane does absolutely no damage up close. I also appreciate how you've manned up and admitted how wrong you were earlier in the thread.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#170 - 2012-12-17 23:39:42 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
Lol, if you want i can post you a graph with links but that doesnt help the dicusiion at all, the point is that the unlinked 10mn talos is better than the unlinked 100mn talos!


This whole dicussion is about the ships without force multipliers!


Also ive never admitted that i was wrong imo (the 100mn + link/snakes beeing n1 isnt admitting beeing wrong , as my previous statements about the ship concerned unlinked/unimplanted solo/fleet situations!)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#171 - 2012-12-18 00:24:21 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Lol, if you want i can post you a graph with links but that doesnt help the dicusiion at all, the point is that the unlinked 10mn talos is better than the unlinked 100mn talos!


This whole dicussion is about the ships without force multipliers!


Also ive never admitted that i was wrong imo (the 100mn + link/snakes beeing n1 isnt admitting beeing wrong , as my previous statements about the ship concerned unlinked/unimplanted solo/fleet situations!)


I've asked repeatedly for exactly the graph I asked for. I've said nothing at all about including snakes. Even the graphs that you claim as "reasonable situations" illustrate the much higher damage mitigation than you thought was "mathematically possible" - and now you claim that you aren't even doing the math. The fact that you consistently refuse to deliver the graph is very telling.

Really, just stop. You're making a fool of yourself.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#172 - 2012-12-18 00:35:39 UTC
God liang stop beeing terrible, this discussion is about the ships by themselfs, no links, no implants! The fact that you blob with it and never undock without links has nothing to do with this discussion at all, the basic unliked fit takes nearly full damage at around 20km vs medium turrets that was my claim and i have backed my claim up with multiple graphs showning just this!

The case that the damage is reduced via loki links is true (as shown in the graph i linked way back with the tengu in it) but it still takes tho thirds of the damage without heat, with heat this comes down to half showing that in a 1v1 situation the 100mn talos is till worse even when linked compared to a 10mn one.


Just because apperantly you are to dumb to understand this: NO LINKS, NO IMPLANTS just the base fits with no force multipliers whatsoever, if that is the case the damage it migates vs medium turrets is neglectable this is also the base to compare thse two ship!



(also if you want to play the link card, a fully force multipled talos is faster than a normal vagabond, more agile, does more dps, has more cap and has way more rnage and projects its damage vs mwd crusiers perfectly. it also is faster than afs and most nromal frigates which means it can kill them quite easily it thus obsoletes the vagabond/cynabal)



Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#173 - 2012-12-18 01:05:55 UTC
Why are you refusing to provide the graph? Is it because there is significant damage projection? Also, how well does the 10mn Talos apply damage to the 100mn Talos?

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#174 - 2012-12-18 01:16:46 UTC
I already told you the differences (also in the tengu graph a linked talos can be seen), the 10mn talos dpends highly on personalskill but as it si far more agile and nearly as fast a good pilot can put out around 600dps @ 20km, the 10mn talos can also turn of it mwd making the sig sizes equal!

But as the linked fit is of no concern here so i dont deem it neccesary to post it (202 dps taken without heat, and 130 with but unrevelant stats btw, 10mn talos would still fare better vs a single target)


BUT LINKED FITS ARENT OF ANY IMPORTANCE!
Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#175 - 2012-12-18 01:37:13 UTC
*waits for this thread to die*

*keeps waiting*

This is a discussion forum, not somewhere to bludgeon people to death with situational opinions masquerading as immutable fact.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#176 - 2012-12-18 01:40:15 UTC
So let me see if I can put your posts together into a coherent whole. When facing highly tracking enhanced medium guns, the 100mn Talos I was flying mitigates at worst 66% of the damage as compared to a similar 10mn MWD Talos. Both up close and at range it takes very little damage. A typical "nano range" BC would apply at best 33% of its DPS. This is from each medium gun damage source.

So when facing only a single damage source, I could reasonably expect to have the equivalent of a 40k EHP tank: 13k/.33 = 40k. Additionally, it's able to return damage to pretty much anyone on the battlefield. Tell me again how my fit sucks?

-Liang

Ed: Also, graph. You didn't post it. Again. Why? :)

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#177 - 2012-12-18 01:49:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Maeltstome wrote:
*waits for this thread to die*

*keeps waiting*

This is a discussion forum, not somewhere to bludgeon people to death with situational opinions masquerading as immutable fact.


I find this part of the thread funny as hell. I think it's a damn shame we're discussing 100mn Talos fits but I think everyone with a brain has already drawn the correct conclusion: the problem isn't that the Talos (or Tier 3s) obsolete the Vagabond because it doesn't compete for the same role. The problem is that people don't value the things that a Vagabond does.

Is that to say that the Talos isn't a powerful ship? Well, no. It's a very powerful ship. But it's not competing with the Vagabond any more than the Megathron does.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#178 - 2012-12-18 01:50:04 UTC
Liang Nuren wrote:
So let me see if I can put your posts together into a coherent whole. When facing highly tracking enhanced medium guns, the 100mn Talos I was flying mitigates at worst 66% of the damage as compared to a similar 10mn MWD Talos. Both up close and at range it takes very little damage. A typical "nano range" BC would apply at best 33% of its DPS. This is from each medium gun damage source.

So when facing only a single damage source, I could reasonably expect to have the equivalent of a 40k EHP tank: 13k/.33 = 40k. Additionally, it's able to return damage to pretty much anyone on the battlefield. Tell me again how my fit sucks?

-Liang

Ed: Also, graph. You didn't post it. Again. Why? :)


Probably because you've went into "I'm the only right person in eve" mode... where-in logic is permeable.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#179 - 2012-12-18 01:52:06 UTC
Told you already why it dont think it neccessery to post it! Also the unlinked fit (what this is about, as a force multipled 10mn talos is way better then an unlinked vaga so IF we start from your point of view your entire argumentation that the vaga is fine makes no sense (as the talos then obsoletes it), but then we can conclude that a fully force multiplied 100mn talos is better or at least equal to a 10mn one (IF the 100mn one has links/snakes)) only miagtes at best (vs an unmoving or aproaching target) 33%, while in most situations it migates way less!

Also no you cant return damage to anyone on the battlefield, your damageprojection isnt better then a 10mn talos (depends on the fit tho).



My point was that a non force multiplied "truesolo" 100mn talos is inferior to the 10mn one, and that it doesnt migate much damage from medium guns (which even tho you saw the graphs, you fail to acknoledge)!




(Also a armor cane with dual webs puts out around 700dps vs your talos if its linked/snaked and heating at 2000m at a 90° angle!)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#180 - 2012-12-18 01:58:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Liang Nuren
Maeltstome wrote:
Probably because you've went into "I'm the only right person in eve" mode... where-in logic is permeable.


Nah, it's not that I'm not the only person that's right in Eve. It's that he's specifically wrong about virtually everything he's said about the way my fit works. It's that he spent 8 pages talking **** about a fit he never understood in the first place. It's that he doesn't even understand the relevant core mechanics of the game - which is, I think, an important thing when you're demanding nerfs. Which is why he refuses to post the graph - because he knows it illustrates just how ignorant he is about this game.

Honestly, I'm not terribly interested in talking about the 100mn fit and you might notice that I only answer questions and correct misperceptions - I didn't ever bring it up. But I do find it funny as hell how it catches EFT warriors off guard. ;-)

-Liang

Ed: You'll note that I don't have a whole lot to say to Nois except to note that he discounts play styles that aren't his own and is overall a negative nancy. A lot of his points about risk/reward feel true if that's the only reason you play the game. But even as a billionaire many many times over I don't feel that Tier 3s are "free".

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.