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Talos needs to be nerfed. Long live the Vagabond!

First post
Author
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
#221 - 2012-12-18 12:20:10 UTC
to all nerf winnies ....

.... try to find out how to pilot the ship before u cry on the forums ....


Both of these ships have their roles and vaga does not become obsolete because of the talos, but because of navy and normal cruisers boost.

Vaga still carries some advantages (t2 resists, neut) but cannot justify the incredibly stupid price over the SFI - which is actually only result of the CCPs masssive failure with tier system in FW.

Actually more dangerous then talos is megapulse oracle or AC nado. They are faster if fited properly and they only lack small drones.

Talos can be easily melted by 1 frig with scram and web, vaga will still have decent chance.

As a pilot in AF I would definitely brurn for talos from 20km range (to get under his guns). But I would definitely not do it with vaga (would get neutef and melted).
Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#222 - 2012-12-18 14:23:16 UTC
Iyacia Cyric'ai wrote:
Vaga is vastly more speedy and agile and has better tracking (not to mention better tank because of T2 resists). Talos has twice the damage but is slower, has poorer tracking and is less agile.... I'm sorry but why does this thread even exist?


The tracking of the talos is comparable to the vagabond due to 37.5% bonus the talos gets. And although it's slower, it's not slow by much - back in the days of real nano the vagabond had interceptor speeds. Now it's just a fast cruiser and the talos isn't a lot behind it.
Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#223 - 2012-12-18 14:29:36 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:
to all nerf winnies ....

.... try to find out how to pilot the ship before u cry on the forums ....


Both of these ships have their roles and vaga does not become obsolete because of the talos, but because of navy and normal cruisers boost.

Vaga still carries some advantages (t2 resists, neut) but cannot justify the incredibly stupid price over the SFI - which is actually only result of the CCPs masssive failure with tier system in FW.

Actually more dangerous then talos is megapulse oracle or AC nado. They are faster if fited properly and they only lack small drones.

Talos can be easily melted by 1 frig with scram and web, vaga will still have decent chance.

As a pilot in AF I would definitely brurn for talos from 20km range (to get under his guns). But I would definitely not do it with vaga (would get neutef and melted).


I've seen plenty of people do exactly what you said. I've also seen 5 light drone fk up a frigates day VERY quickly. A talos with twin nano's is only 200-400 MS slower than most AFs. Do the math and tell me how long it takes you to cover 20km, straight line, when you are only gaining 400m a second.

20000 / 400 = 50 seconds.

We'll cut that down to 25 seconds due to your better acceleration, and the fact that you wont be at 0 - you will be orbitting at about 5-6k km.

That's 25 seconds of straight line, MWD Bloomed damage you are taking. Even with an AF's sig radius bonus, i don't see it ending well.
Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#224 - 2012-12-18 14:32:34 UTC
btw im not wanting the talos nerfed. I actually think it's fine. I just think the vagabond is trash - owned at least 1 vagavbond at all times for 5 years and it is never my first choice of ship.
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#225 - 2012-12-18 14:36:54 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:


The tracking of the talos is comparable to the vagabond due to 37.5% bonus the talos gets. And although it's slower, it's not slow by much - back in the days of real nano the vagabond had interceptor speeds. Now it's just a fast cruiser and the talos isn't a lot behind it.


Even with the 37.5% bonus the talos does not track nearly as well as a vaga. Medium guns also have a much smaller sig res than large guns, by more than 3 times...


Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#226 - 2012-12-18 15:53:05 UTC
Smabs wrote:
Look I know your 100mn talos with no damage mods might be literally 10 times better than anything in every way ever, but you're double and triple posting and writing walls of text and at this point people aren't even reading it.


Haha, it's specifically not 10x better than anything in every way ever... there's definite strong weaknesses to the fit. Gate guns and interceptors come to mind....

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#227 - 2012-12-18 16:23:20 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
I've seen plenty of people do exactly what you said. I've also seen 5 light drone fk up a frigates day VERY quickly. A talos with twin nano's is only 200-400 MS slower than most AFs. Do the math and tell me how long it takes you to cover 20km, straight line, when you are only gaining 400m a second.

20000 / 400 = 50 seconds.

We'll cut that down to 25 seconds due to your better acceleration, and the fact that you wont be at 0 - you will be orbitting at about 5-6k km.

That's 25 seconds of straight line, MWD Bloomed damage you are taking. Even with an AF's sig radius bonus, i don't see it ending well.

To track (score a 50% hit chance) an Enyo at 20km with Neutron Blaster Canon loaded with navy ammo (highest tracking) + twin TE, you need the Enyo to have a transversal lower than 30,8 m/s.

Also, as soon as the frigate hit you with a web, or even worse, a scram, your speed vanish, and you are doomed. That is 13km without anything but overload on a T2 web.

Also, any time the range drop, you track the frigate worse.

Also, I never saw anyone using something else than navy antimatter, which have a range of 6000m on 2TE neutron Talos. Null ammo tracking is 25% worse.

Also, overheated MWD push the speed difference to the advantage of the frigate.

Which mean that if the frigate pilot is not that bad and is spiraling to you, he have a rather good chance of catching you. If, on top of that, the frigate pilote manage to kill your drones (and AF do this fairly well), you are doomed (I love this word).

Which mean that the Vagabond is a lot better than the Talos to kill frigates. Of course, you are not harmless with a Talos against frigs, though you must be *very* careful, because the tiniest mistake will kill you.
Maeltstome
Academy of the Unseen Arts
The Potato Alliance
#228 - 2012-12-18 16:28:50 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
I've seen plenty of people do exactly what you said. I've also seen 5 light drone fk up a frigates day VERY quickly. A talos with twin nano's is only 200-400 MS slower than most AFs. Do the math and tell me how long it takes you to cover 20km, straight line, when you are only gaining 400m a second.

20000 / 400 = 50 seconds.

We'll cut that down to 25 seconds due to your better acceleration, and the fact that you wont be at 0 - you will be orbitting at about 5-6k km.

That's 25 seconds of straight line, MWD Bloomed damage you are taking. Even with an AF's sig radius bonus, i don't see it ending well.

To track (score a 50% hit chance) an Enyo at 20km with Neutron Blaster Canon loaded with navy ammo (highest tracking) + twin TE, you need the Enyo to have a transversal lower than 30,8 m/s.

Also, as soon as the frigate hit you with a web, or even worse, a scram, your speed vanish, and you are doomed. That is 13km without anything but overload on a T2 web.

Also, any time the range drop, you track the frigate worse.

Also, I never saw anyone using something else than navy antimatter, which have a range of 6000m on 2TE neutron Talos. Null ammo tracking is 25% worse.

Also, overheated MWD push the speed difference to the advantage of the frigate.

Which mean that if the frigate pilot is not that bad and is spiraling to you, he have a rather good chance of catching you. If, on top of that, the frigate pilote manage to kill your drones (and AF do this fairly well), you are doomed (I love this word).

Which mean that the Vagabond is a lot better than the Talos to kill frigates. Of course, you are not harmless with a Talos against frigs, though you must be *very* careful, because the tiniest mistake will kill you.


Thanks for reading half my post. Well played.
Bouh Revetoile
In Wreck we thrust
#229 - 2012-12-18 17:02:54 UTC
Maeltstome wrote:
Thanks for reading half my post. Well played.

You mean the part where you assess the frigate pilot to be bad ?

That's hardly a good assumption...
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#230 - 2012-12-19 00:43:07 UTC
Bouh Revetoile wrote:
Maeltstome wrote:
I've seen plenty of people do exactly what you said. I've also seen 5 light drone fk up a frigates day VERY quickly. A talos with twin nano's is only 200-400 MS slower than most AFs. Do the math and tell me how long it takes you to cover 20km, straight line, when you are only gaining 400m a second.

20000 / 400 = 50 seconds.

We'll cut that down to 25 seconds due to your better acceleration, and the fact that you wont be at 0 - you will be orbitting at about 5-6k km.

That's 25 seconds of straight line, MWD Bloomed damage you are taking. Even with an AF's sig radius bonus, i don't see it ending well.

To track (score a 50% hit chance) an Enyo at 20km with Neutron Blaster Canon loaded with navy ammo (highest tracking) + twin TE, you need the Enyo to have a transversal lower than 30,8 m/s.

Also, as soon as the frigate hit you with a web, or even worse, a scram, your speed vanish, and you are doomed. That is 13km without anything but overload on a T2 web.

Also, any time the range drop, you track the frigate worse.

Also, I never saw anyone using something else than navy antimatter, which have a range of 6000m on 2TE neutron Talos. Null ammo tracking is 25% worse.

Also, overheated MWD push the speed difference to the advantage of the frigate.

Which mean that if the frigate pilot is not that bad and is spiraling to you, he have a rather good chance of catching you. If, on top of that, the frigate pilote manage to kill your drones (and AF do this fairly well), you are doomed (I love this word).

Which mean that the Vagabond is a lot better than the Talos to kill frigates. Of course, you are not harmless with a Talos against frigs, though you must be *very* careful, because the tiniest mistake will kill you.



You math are terrible m8, a enyo get hit (badly), to it has over 1500m/s transversal if its using a usual aproach (i.e click half way between your centered target and the edge of your screen) than the neyo will take 450dps at 30 or 323dps at 20, which is enough especially as thats without drones (especially if you consider that a vagabond does a whole lot less)!

(Also if you take in force multipliers the talos is simply faster than the enyo so theres little danger at all!)
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#231 - 2012-12-19 01:01:07 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

You math are terrible m8, a enyo get hit (badly), to it has over 1500m/s transversal if its using a usual aproach (i.e click half way between your centered target and the edge of your screen) than the neyo will take 450dps at 30 or 323dps at 20, which is enough especially as thats without drones (especially if you consider that a vagabond does a whole lot less)!

(Also if you take in force multipliers the talos is simply faster than the enyo so theres little danger at all!)


I have to ask why you always assume that only the Talos has links? I've always assumed everyone has links... it seems much safer.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Dewa Cinta
Horrible Mining Corp
#232 - 2012-12-19 01:28:46 UTC
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
Is liang going off the deep end again? Justification of bad fits always makes me lol. Keep up the comedy act liang Lol


Rofl yes.
W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#233 - 2012-12-19 01:31:38 UTC
Because usually most "good" pvpers fly with links (and most nanopilots belong to that group) while nullsec sov guys dont, and bigger lowsec groups sometimes dont aswell (also if you fighting good lowsec pvpers they usually wont have any frigates with them as they than usually are flashy and plan to take sentry aggro) and what the vagabond/talos are best at is picking off bads, so you most likely will be in a situation were its you beeing linked/(snakes) vs a group of bads.

A talos cant do much solo to a good gang but neither can the vagabond!
Dewa Cinta
Horrible Mining Corp
#234 - 2012-12-19 01:40:30 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Because usually most "good" pvpers fly with links (and most nanopilots belong to that group) while nullsec sov guys dont, and bigger lowsec groups sometimes dont aswell (also if you fighting good lowsec pvpers they usually wont have any frigates with them as they than usually are flashy and plan to take sentry aggro) and what the vagabond/talos are best at is picking off bads, so you most likely will be in a situation were its you beeing linked/(snakes) vs a group of bads.

A talos cant do much solo to a good gang but neither can the vagabond!


Talos can kill most BC np.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#235 - 2012-12-19 02:30:39 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:
Because usually most "good" pvpers fly with links (and most nanopilots belong to that group) while nullsec sov guys dont, and bigger lowsec groups sometimes dont aswell (also if you fighting good lowsec pvpers they usually wont have any frigates with them as they than usually are flashy and plan to take sentry aggro) and what the vagabond/talos are best at is picking off bads, so you most likely will be in a situation were its you beeing linked/(snakes) vs a group of bads.

A talos cant do much solo to a good gang but neither can the vagabond!


Oh. I see. Yeah, I guess if you want to predicate everything on fighting bads... but then I guess it doesn't matter what you're flying.

/shrug

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Smabs
Perkone
Caldari State
#236 - 2012-12-19 05:45:43 UTC
You know on closer inspection of the 100mn ab talos I feel like you're really onto something. It's has bad dps, flies off uncontrollably in one direction and is completely useless at helping out any kind of gang. But on the other hand it'll survive most fights simply because it does one thing well, which is running away.

That talos fit is basically a metaphor for the average eve player and that's what makes it amazing.
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#237 - 2012-12-19 16:15:19 UTC
Smabs wrote:
You know on closer inspection of the 100mn ab talos I feel like you're really onto something. It's has bad dps, flies off uncontrollably in one direction and is completely useless at helping out any kind of gang. But on the other hand it'll survive most fights simply because it does one thing well, which is running away.

That talos fit is basically a metaphor for the average eve player and that's what makes it amazing.


That's really funny, because the "standard" 3 Gyro Vaga-cane with 425s/Barrage does significantly less DPS than the 100mn Talos does. All things (links/implants) equal, the Vaga-cane is slower, has approximately the same agility*, and has a much larger sig radius.

However, the Talos isn't better for every situation and the Hurricane comes with significantly more EHP and neuts. I'd say neither obsoletes the other, but there's reasons to fly either one.

-Liang

Ed: * fit for this. No, really.

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

W0lf Crendraven
The Tuskers
The Tuskers Co.
#238 - 2012-12-19 16:19:11 UTC  |  Edited by: W0lf Crendraven
[quote=Liang Nuren

Ed: * fit for this. No, really.[/quote]

Only with nomads, em-706 and loki links, and even then it still alings significantly slower (in 10 seconds)!
Liang Nuren
No Salvation
Top Belt for Fun
#239 - 2012-12-19 18:20:35 UTC
W0lf Crendraven wrote:

Only with nomads, em-706 and loki links, and even then it still alings significantly slower (in 10 seconds)!


10 seconds is a blazingly fast align time for that level of damage mitigation.

-Liang

I'm an idiot, don't mind me.

Arronicus
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#240 - 2012-12-20 11:23:49 UTC
Jack Miton wrote:
Say it with me:

CCP.
Are.
Working.
On.
Balancing.
ALL.
The.
Sh*t.



/thread