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Dont change the 2/10 plexes!

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Author
xxxAlloxxx
The Triglavian Cartel
#361 - 2013-01-08 14:00:11 UTC
Olleybear wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage):
What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot?

No loot = no reason to go to the plex. The CSM in this thread has pointed out why. I would like to add that this would turn the plex into another beacon on the overview like the static npc beacon Golgothan Fields in Ennur and the static npc beacon in Atlar. When you visit these beacons once or twice there is nothing to keep a person interested in going back. Reintroducing the static plexes as you describe without loot, turns the static plexes into another Golgothan Fields.

There are a lot of us who agree with you 100% that the farming of static plexes is a problem. We are with you on that. The farming of the plexes is bad.

There are two things that made the plex farmable that can be changed if the resources are available to make the changes.

The first, and most important, is the static timer for plex respawn. Randomize that timer to occur between 30 minutes and 2 hours after plex completion or whatever time you think would be good. A farmer will no longer be able to log on alt, kill plex, get loot, log off, and set egg timer for next spawn.

The second is the ability of a person to sit in the last room of the plex, both uncloaked and cloaked, waiting until the plex respawns, finishing the plex, then waiting again for plex respawn. Make it so when someone is in any room of the plex, the plex wont respawn.

We understand the moving of the static plexes to the exploration system fixes both of these issues without needing to write any new code, but it brings us right back to why this thread was started in the first place.

Anyways, thanks for taking the time to look at this change again. It is appreciated.


^ ThisThisThisThisThisThis

Seriously Olly hit the nail on the head here. CCP Dev's read that statement well and please understand what he's saying here. If it can be done please do it, don't simple take the easy road in this matter please!!!

TetraHydroC https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=453962

In Game Chat: 420 Pub chat

NorthCrossroad
EVE University
Ivy League
#362 - 2013-01-08 14:19:07 UTC  |  Edited by: NorthCrossroad
Hi

CCP Fozzie wrote:
Explanation
Rephrasing your explanation - you didn't "fixed" the farming problem. You just removed it. And also removed what can be called "PvP sites". So don't know how that change helds anything good in it. Just a tricky explanation to keep good face.

As for PvP spots you've mentioned - they really need to give something except PvP. To keep people in those spots. And it was given by a chance to run a plex from time to time and get some ISK. So the system you might be considering is actually the same plexes, but in different package. So the question rises again - why it was done in the first place? :) Several solutions to "farming" problem were suggested. Some were pretty good ones.

As for the very problem of "farming". One of the key things were that those plexes were never really introduced to new players properly and ingame. I'm a teaching manager in EUNI and personally did classes about those 1/20 and 2/10s for our students. And I can assure you that 90+% of people had no clue about them. But as soon as they were introduced to mechanics - a lot of them went and started actually running them.
Swifty Blowback
Doomheim
#363 - 2013-01-08 15:11:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Swifty Blowback
CCP Fozzie wrote:

... during this last release we went over some of the available data to look at how the 1/10 and 2/10 plexes were serving their various purposes. Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content, with the majority of the completions performed by the same small group of experienced players, some of which were clearly farming the content...

Thanks for the reply CCP Fozzie. One glaringly obvious question for you:

Did you split your metrics into high / low sec? Were the low sec DEDs being farmed by "a small group of experienced players"?

My experience with lowsec DEDs leads me to believe that in general, they were not farmed constantly like the high sec ones by a select few players. If your metrics show this, then there really isn't a problem having them in lowsec is there?

With even more emphasis on
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content

I'd just like to say they were by far the best PVE content in low sec for small ships. You got PVE, PVP, possible nice loot, possible issue of getting loot "home" safely all in one lovely little DED site.

If it's not clear by now, my point is that your metrics are, I believe, applicable to highsec only. If your metrics are wrong for lowsec, there's a good possibility your "solution" was too.
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#364 - 2013-01-08 15:23:21 UTC
Devs are busy with merging dust bunnies into Eve, probably we have to keep this thread alive for next month or so before seeing another post with blue badge. In the meantime I will happily farm L4s in hisec.

Invalid signature format

Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#365 - 2013-01-08 16:19:02 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Another intriguing idea that this question leads to, however, is the possiblity of a type of plex variable that actually flags individuals as suspects upon entering.


This mechanic also has the potential to make some high sec exploration sites into PVP opportunities.

Just sayin'.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Jin alPatar
Entertainment 7wenty
#366 - 2013-01-08 17:21:51 UTC
Would it be possible to have a "deactivated beacon" in DED complexes that a player can activate once they're scanned down?

Once activated they can act like Faction Warfare beacons that show up on everyone's overview. Then corporations that like using these for size controlled fights can scan, warp, and activate beacons.

I think it would also be useful to *not* allow players to DE-activate beacons and have activated beacons prevent the deadspace area from despawning until downtime.

I think this is obviously more difficult than Fozie's suggestion but keeps the things most people want. Exploration is still needed, there are still rewards in these DED complexes, and they can be used to control ship sizes in specific areas.

Thoughts?
Kane Rizzel
NovaKane Incorporated
You've got RED on you
#367 - 2013-01-08 18:56:19 UTC
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content


"Hey guys, instead of making our lowsec/anysec PvE content more interesting as it seems people would rather fight at these sites than run them, how about we just remove them? That way we don't have to do any work..."

Is what this sounds like.

Like someone already mentioned, to eliminate all farming and some of the biggest culprits, remove mining and missions... And moon minerals... Or, create PvE content that's not easily farmed by using suggestions from players, some quite good ones in this here thread.

Now I understand y'all have a tough job and everything, and we are a bunch of whiny players, but really, it didn't even get mentioned other than in the patch notes, so how come it was such a big issue if y'all didn't even care enough to mention it, even in passing?

Meh.



[URL=http://novakaneinc.blogspot.co.uk]A Pirate's Perspective[/URL] [URL=http://community.eveonline.com/community/fansites.asp]Official EVE Online Fan Site[/URL]

Artimis kraw
Sister Margaret's Home for Wayward Girls
#368 - 2013-01-08 21:10:40 UTC
Kane Rizzel wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content


"Hey guys, instead of making our lowsec/anysec PvE content more interesting as it seems people would rather fight at these sites than run them, how about we just remove them? That way we don't have to do any work..."

Is what this sounds like.

Like someone already mentioned, to eliminate all farming and some of the biggest culprits, remove mining and missions... And moon minerals... Or, create PvE content that's not easily farmed by using suggestions from players, some quite good ones in this here thread.

Now I understand y'all have a tough job and everything, and we are a bunch of whiny players, but really, it didn't even get mentioned other than in the patch notes, so how come it was such a big issue if y'all didn't even care enough to mention it, even in passing?

Meh.





^this
Schmata Bastanold
In Boobiez We Trust
#369 - 2013-01-08 21:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Schmata Bastanold
Kane Rizzel wrote:

Now I understand y'all have a tough job and everything, and we are a bunch of whiny players, but really, it didn't even get mentioned other than in the patch notes, so how come it was such a big issue if y'all didn't even care enough to mention it, even in passing?

Meh.


Last meeting before final release of expansion

"Guys, I think we should keep that thing as a surprise and only mention it briefly in patch notes"
"To make people discover it and praise us for bashing farmers, right?"
"Exactly my thinking."
"Kinda let them explore about exploration buff?"
"Ooh, I see what you did there. You're good, you..."
"It will be EPIC!"

*slap, slap, hi5s around the table*

Few days later

*gasp*
"Guys... GUYS?!"

Invalid signature format

Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#370 - 2013-01-08 22:21:18 UTC
Kane Rizzel wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content


"Hey guys, instead of making our lowsec/anysec PvE content more interesting as it seems people would rather fight at these sites than run them, how about we just remove them? That way we don't have to do any work..."


Now I understand y'all have a tough job and everything, and we are a bunch of whiny players, but really, it didn't even get mentioned other than in the patch notes, so how come it was such a big issue if y'all didn't even care enough to mention it, even in passing?

Meh.





It was especially nice training for a carrier and gathering enough dough to afford 2 so me and some friends could bounce around to the static systems with all the new destroyers and redesigned frigates. We expected epic pve content because of the other people in this thread not because the rats were fun to shoot at....and with no high value loot in them there would have been no incentive to plan such a thing.

More time was spent on fireworks and snowballs...sad.
Hampton Krantz
Iron Inquisition
#371 - 2013-01-09 05:20:51 UTC
I'd like to reiterate my point of favoring these complexes as a low skill pilot.

The biggest reason they were exciting is because I could get away with pirate's treasure. It's mathematically stupid to think that I can take out a dramiel without having T2 any type of offenses, especially versus some of these good frigate pilots. These complexes gave me something to actually get! My mainstay has been PVE, absolutely no question. I came to these complexes for the gold, and I got gold and pirates. I felt like I had never run into a 'botter', ever. Regardless of being an absolutely dreadful pvp'er I could still win by getting away with the gold (read: compete with characters that have 20 times my skill points).

I think the most influential point in this thread is that we simply want the complexes.
Titus Veridius
Calamitous-Intent
Feign Disorder
#372 - 2013-01-09 05:47:20 UTC
Hampton Krantz wrote:
I'd like to reiterate my point of favoring these complexes as a low skill pilot.

The biggest reason they were exciting is because I could get away with pirate's treasure. It's mathematically stupid to think that I can take out a dramiel without having T2 any type of offenses, especially versus some of these good frigate pilots. These complexes gave me something to actually get! My mainstay has been PVE, absolutely no question. I came to these complexes for the gold, and I got gold and pirates. I felt like I had never run into a 'botter', ever. Regardless of being an absolutely dreadful pvp'er I could still win by getting away with the gold (read: compete with characters that have 20 times my skill points).

I think the most influential point in this thread is that we simply want the complexes.


The problem wasn't with botters. The problem was that two 2/10s in Molden Heath and many more in other regions were being perma-afk-cloak-farmed in the third room by people like Djambul (Hrober).

However this wasn't a real problem, in the sense that it should have made for the static plexes being removed. It was an abuse of game mechanics, which should have been fixed by changing game mechanics (not letting ships fitting cloaks into the plex ect, or spawning webbing scramming rats on top of those who are in the plex for more than an hour) and not removing something who's net benefit was far greater than a 1 dimensional metric based on years old intentions could measure.

If they replace the static 2/10s with something different, to fix this, they will still have to modify game mechanics to prevent farmers. The difference is the methods being used to farm the old sites were well known....and the possible exploits for a newly created bandaid static will be unknown to most until they are widespread. CCP will have to fix this problem either way. Bringing back the static 2/10s is known quantity and fixing them a known quantity (more or less) and balancing and exploit fixing new replacement 2/10s an unknown quantity.

::rubs haired chin:: Hrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm

Also...CCP Fozzie, I'm looking at Battle Cruiser changes posted for the spring (obviously preliminary).....why does CCP hate Minmatar now? First the Jaguar gets stealth nerfed, and now the Hurricane gets nerfed again. Racist much? ; p



Bloodpetal
Tir Capital Management Group
#373 - 2013-01-09 06:53:12 UTC
Hampton Krantz wrote:
Hi, my name's Hampton, and I am a carebear.

I dabbled in pvp nearly 100% unsuccessfully, but I dabble. I started because of these complexes; hearing about a 55m drop, I naturally checked it out. With sub 1 million skill points I was about to make a small fortune.. and meet pirates. I'm in no way a fast reflex, preemptive decision maker type of gamer required to be good at pvp in EVE.
I did make a small fortune, and I did get blown up. I also survived long enough to see another pirate kill my pirate. I fully support these exciting static plexes. I was deeply saddened when I checked the DED map to see they were all gone. Now I'm looking back into AFK mining since it's not exciting for my low SP character to try to PVP (read: go into lowsec) with nearly zero reward. Are there opportunities as a low SP player in lowsec? Sure, but I don't know about them. Something simple as an onboard scanner made me a part of a community for awhile, and now I have no reason to be. I also have no reason to stop my mining barge 5

I don't have time to find a niche lucrative business in lowsec as a carebear or casual player.

Please bring back the complexes and I will continue getting blown up



This.

Where I am.

Sylvous
Bigger than Jesus
#374 - 2013-01-09 10:26:15 UTC
Wow a lot has been talked about since I last was here (just read 80+ posts to get myself up to date).

Also before I get onto my main topic for this post, I want to point out something I just did, I just read the 80 posts that I missed so that I could keep up with and understand the entirety of this conversation. Now CCP Fozzie (and others), I love you as much as the next player, but I must insist that anyone looking to contribute meaningfully to this thread give a read from the beginning. From the start we assumed many of the reasons as to why the plexes were removed and gave some good ideas and some ways to fix the content, and some of those ideas still stand (imho) as good fixes. So just because page 1 happened so long ago, don’t forget it exists. Now you might indeed have read the entire post, in which case I would just like to point out that we all ready discussed and said that we didn't want them as you have proposed.

The Reason I bring that up is because it has been said many times that WE DON’T WANT ARENAS. Or rather we don’t want complexes that are dedicated arenas. The DED sites provided enough incentive for people to risk fights for isk, and for others it provided places that people could expect to find fights due to the inherent value of these places. As it has been pointed out, beacons all ready exist in low sec such as ruined minmatar outposts, and not to mention things like planets or asteroid belts. The issue is that there is no monetary incentive to these. I will admit to farming these complexes, but here is the thing, I was 100% willing to give them up to someone who could best me in a fight, or have the connections to bring enough people to take me down. But the thing is, I loved them most for the PVP, and the reason that happened was because of the PVE, not because it was at a beacon, or the terrain of the accel gates, but because of all of the above combined.

Not to be too self serving but I made what I thought was a decent suggestion on how to fix the complexes back on page one, so I will restate it here in bullet form:
1. If someone is in the final room, all the gates are unlocked leading to that room (if someone is in the second room, all gates are unlocked, third room all gates.... etc)
2. Cloaks do not work beyond the third room
(read full post on page 1 for more details, also there are a lot of other really good ideas back there as well that warrant consideration)


I think that this really sums it up. It stops AFK cloaking for farming, and if anyone intends on camping the third room they can be attacked the entire time. Of course there are other suggestions that work well, but the main point is we want them back.

Lastly Michael Harari has it right, your metric at least seems to be broken. There used to be soooo many kills in Heild, and systems containing these complexes did in fact see a lot more frig action. It is unfair to look at high sec and then make a change to lowsec.
Titus Veridius
Calamitous-Intent
Feign Disorder
#375 - 2013-01-09 18:28:34 UTC

Also Sylvous has no reason to fly Dramiels (Dramiels which got stealth nerfed right to the antique shop) without static 2/10s... we must restore this national icon to its previous authentic glory, or SAURON the DECEIVER WILL COVER ALL THE LANDS OF MIDDLE EARTH IN A SECOND DARKNESS!!!!!!
Xi 'xar
Mise en Abyme
#376 - 2013-01-09 22:32:17 UTC
Turgesson wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content, primary purpose



Thanks for the candid explanation but I didn't start playing eve for the interesting pve content. I'll just keep high sec ganking till the isk runs out and bail now. o/


My advice would be to stop trying to make shooting red plus signs and rocks interesting. As far as adding arenas, I think they should come right along with dance emotes for the CQ dolls.



Bye bye Turgey

Can I haz your stuff?

http://herdingwolves.wordpress.com/

ako ako
I.C.E Initiative
#377 - 2013-01-09 23:46:52 UTC
Thanks Fozzie for a reply. To your proposal I strongly believe there has to be something to entice people to want to head to that beacon, so far I like Hans J's sec status tag drops.
Turgesson
Gorillaz In The Mist
#378 - 2013-01-10 00:25:56 UTC
Xi 'xar wrote:
Turgesson wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:


Our metrics made clear that they were not living up to their primary purpose as interesting pve content, primary purpose



Thanks for the candid explanation but I didn't start playing eve for the interesting pve content. I'll just keep high sec ganking till the isk runs out and bail now. o/


My advice would be to stop trying to make shooting red plus signs and rocks interesting. As far as adding arenas, I think they should come right along with dance emotes for the CQ dolls.



Bye bye Turgey

Can I haz your stuff?



No, I'm using what I got to burn what I can in high sec but I'll gladly give ya back all of your stuff...and Sailor's...and Vol's...and Xyne's (btw thanks for leaving him to farm for faction mods)...and Amber's...and...hey when did Tuskers start accepting bads?



(Just think Fozzie, without that static plex me and this guy would have no reason to screw with each other, weeks and months worth of fighting would have never happened, the Celestis of doom would have never existed and good ol' Xi'Xar here would have never figured out how to defeat a frigate killer cruiser with a frigate.)
Angelus Ryan
One Ronin
#379 - 2013-01-11 07:46:36 UTC
You know what I find amazing about this thread?

We got people from nearly everywhere posting about this. We have Tuskers, R1fta, solo pilots, what not. We even have Northy from EVE Uni chiming in.

CCP, please just listen to this and don't mess it up (again).
Besbin
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
#380 - 2013-01-11 14:50:03 UTC
I've had many good fights at the 2/10 in Gerper. I farmed this myself a little bit, but after a while, it became evident that the loot from it simply wasn't enough for a capsuleer of my age. For newbies, however, the frequent 10-20 mill drops was a fortune. Since Gerper is in a dead end close to high sec, there's a frequent surge of newbies coming through here, making for quite a lot of fights (although many of them rather ganks).

So my two cents: Keep 2/10 small money for vets and a fortune for newbies. And have them close to high sec in less frequented areas.