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Dont change the 2/10 plexes!

First post First post
Author
Gah'Matar
Dam-Torsad Honor Guard
#341 - 2013-01-07 21:32:01 UTC
How about making these deadspaces have rats, with a slightly higher probabilty (2-5x) of elite faction spawns over the surrounding belts? No locked accels, but you get a faction rat once every ~4 hours... The reward wouldn't be high enough to warrant farming but worth poking a look in. Or something like that. Removing the locked acceleration gate would reduce the farming benefit while significantly increasing risk. The switch to normal elite spawns would also nerf the reward.
Dersen Lowery
The Scope
#342 - 2013-01-07 21:38:18 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I think you misunderstood what I meant about terrain. I was simply saying that an acceleration gate itself is not enticing "terrain". The appeal in these plexes isn't just that you can shrug off cruisers and duel, its that you can shrug off cruisers and kill things and grab lucrative loots and maybe get some PvP along the way. Or that you can shrug off cruisers and pursue other frigates into the plex. But simply shrugging off larger sized ships was never the -primary- appeal in and of itself, certainly not enough to sustain regular traffic to such a complex.


Fair enough; I did go off on a bit of a tangent.

The idea, though, was that there were several different variables in establishing terrain. Yes, an acceleration gate is a significant piece of terrain, so maybe some sites could have more than one, and some could have none. But the contents and rewards of the plex are also terrain: Some sites will attract explorers, and some will attract pirates. If you really leave your options open, you could attract industrialists as well. Multi-gate sites and escalations will have different appeal than single-room sites, and so on. You have a lot of variables to play with.

The hardest part is setting up static content that isn't FarmVille in space.

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
And lets be careful about the tags-for-sec status issue and not overly confuse the two.


Sure. I just ran with that as an example. I do like the idea of pirate characters illicitly bolstering their security status by some means, though. It's more pirate-y than shooting rats. Hacking a database, as mentioned by Bloodpetal, would be another way.

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
*That being said, I'd LOVE to see more ways to earn pirate faction LP in lowsec and for there to be more interesting and accessible pirate faction LP rewards and cashout places in lowsec, This conceptually just makes sense and I know a lot of players are thirsty for more meaningful ways to play on behalf of the pirate NPCS in EVE.....so there could be some intriguing possibilities here as well if we're not TOO scared of borrowing a little from FW plexes. Pirate


+1 to all that.

Proud founder and member of the Belligerent Desirables.

I voted in CSM X!

Hampton Krantz
Iron Inquisition
#343 - 2013-01-07 21:40:18 UTC
Hi, my name's Hampton, and I am a carebear.

I dabbled in pvp nearly 100% unsuccessfully, but I dabble. I started because of these complexes; hearing about a 55m drop, I naturally checked it out. With sub 1 million skill points I was about to make a small fortune.. and meet pirates. I'm in no way a fast reflex, preemptive decision maker type of gamer required to be good at pvp in EVE.
I did make a small fortune, and I did get blown up. I also survived long enough to see another pirate kill my pirate. I fully support these exciting static plexes. I was deeply saddened when I checked the DED map to see they were all gone. Now I'm looking back into AFK mining since it's not exciting for my low SP character to try to PVP (read: go into lowsec) with nearly zero reward. Are there opportunities as a low SP player in lowsec? Sure, but I don't know about them. Something simple as an onboard scanner made me a part of a community for awhile, and now I have no reason to be. I also have no reason to stop my mining barge 5

I don't have time to find a niche lucrative business in lowsec as a carebear or casual player.

Please bring back the complexes and I will continue getting blown up
Etuura Zellis
Scarlet Corsairs
#344 - 2013-01-07 22:11:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Etuura Zellis
As mentioned by X Gallentius, I'm sure all of us here are guilty of farming these sites for the rewards to some extent, particularly the corps that are established in or near the systems they existed. I can say this because I used these systems frequently as waypoints when I was roaming and 9 times out of 10 when I would arrive and enter to see if there was treasure inside, the site would have been run.

For me this was almost always a good sign as it meant if I stuck around the area long enough I would surely peak someones attention and get a fight or two out of it.

On the flipside there was also a number of these complexes in less traveled "backwater" systems. Whenever I would find myself in the dreaded PVP rut I took vacations of sorts to these areas. Why? Well it served two purposes, I could earn some isk relatively easily without wasting too much time on it and I could get fights out of some of the local frigateers who farmed them with little to no outside interference. I can't bemoan them for this, as it's exactly why I went there, but the fact is because of the rewards people would make the trip to these sites and either kill or be killed for the rewards.

High sec farming is bad, plain and sinple because no player can do a damn thing to stop it, doing it in low comes with risks and isn't as easily accomplished.

Making these sites into no reward "arenas" will probably draw some fights but the draw wont be like it was because in reality as long as pilots are in space there are fights to be had; but giving players who are typically opposed to most pve content for its tediousness something to earn/fight over is a big reason why most (whether they are willing to admit it or not) are so pationate about this.

You've done a lot to improve our PVP experience in low sec with retribution, but this decision was simply bad, no matter how you slice it.

Edit: Having them be scannable via the onboard scanner and appearing as a globally visible beacon is nice, but the static nature of them was a very large part of why they were so popular. So in case theres any question as to what I'm saying here, they should be returned to pre-retribution state as I really don't see any other way for them to return to there previous popularity.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#345 - 2013-01-07 22:23:31 UTC

[/quote]
l that to say, I'm not advocating we reverse that decision as long as we can brainstorm an alternative type of content that satiates the PvP-oriented "fight club" crowd. Placing a tags-for-secs reward inside an easily scannable plex is just one such idea for a replacement.

There's lots of issues to consider, however...for instance the current DED complexes do take several rooms deep to complete, and I'm not sure a multi-layered complex would be considred worth wading through to get the equivalent reward of shooting a nullsec rat to improve your security status. Perhaps a single-room (FW-style) would work, but than we'd have to see a fairly frequent spawn rate in order for them to actually provide places where people are present enough of the time to provide a pew target. The several-rooms-deep aspect of the DED plexes contributed greatly to that.

But in the end, that's just one idea. We're totally open to other suggestions here, the important thing is puzzling out a content / context / reward balance that delivers the same amount of fun for the outlaw PvPers you are complaining about here, so they can engage each other in this separate venue instead of camping content designed for explorers constantly.[/quote]

Hanz, I did not at all mean to imply that lowsec belonged to FW. But you of all people should not need me to clarify this. If anything, pirates made their homes in lowsec long before FW existed and at the moment there was security status for systems and Concord. What I do stand by, though, is the fact that if I happen to be focust-minded, trying to win eve! and find myself alone plexing or missioning in a stationless system (God knows who would otherwise be living or visiting there) and a player hits local. A Caracal shows up on short scan called, @€¥^urface, there is little for me to wonder about their intention. I check their sec status. -4.6. K. I have three options. Run away, let him shoot first, or take the security hit, blind him with my vespa 600's, then go to town on him with my blasters and control range. Rinse and repeat with every pie engagement that is away from a gate. It is inevitable that I should myself become pie for defending myself against a <-5.0 pilot that is clearly bent on collecting my loot and making a trophy out of my KM. I cannot defend my negative sec status alliance members when a -4.6 pie tackles a fleet member at a gate. These are obviously problems, and your proposed sec-tag solution sounds as ridiculous as it is hilarious in its irony. As I find it would indeed, as you mentioned, provide quite the opposite effect: A pilots enters a sectag site to improve his standings, confronts a gang of pies he has to aggress individually. He walks away alive this time with loot and tags, worst off in his sec status than he was initially and no better than he began even after turning in the tags. There is a problem with the sec status, but the solution should not be a treasure chest in shark infested water.
Denidil
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#346 - 2013-01-07 22:42:22 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:


As much I would like to see our beloved 2/10 plex in Heild back on my overview I wouldn't like it to become a basis for "arenas" in Eve. Dedicated places for pvp have no place in New Eden, period. Beauty of lowsec plexes was in emergent gameplay driven by players "misusing" those beacons. And I am afraid that if you make that first step and put even a hint of "arenas" out there that would make more harm than good in the long run.


"arena hate" is dumb. and makes us all less intelligent.

Tedium and difficulty are not the same thing, if you don't realize this then STFU about game design.

Sofia Wolf
Ubuntu Inc.
The Fourth District
#347 - 2013-01-07 22:46:43 UTC
How about making those static plexses give out non material rewords, like standings and security status changes?

There is already need in low sec for standing and sec status mechanics beyond ratting and missioning. You want -10 standings without hunting pods all day? Simply go to static plex and run them for some time and get to -10. Want positive sec status? Well there would be static plexses in low sec that give out that too, and much faster then ratting. Want to improve your standings with some empire or corp or NPC pirate corp that you ruined all the way back when you were noob running missions? No problem because there would be 1/10 and 2/10 static plexses that would do exactly that. Only drawback they are only in lowsec and there are people in those plexses waiting other people just like you to kill them.

Of cource you need make “in character” story for actions that need to be performed in plex to get those standing/sec changes, something like “save valuable document for this allince/corp” to improve standings or “kill refuges camp station” to get negative standings and so on.

Those static plexses would be unique for lowsec, essentially a resource that would make that space different and valuable in a way w-space, 0.0 and high sec are not, and also provide ad least part of PvP utility that were proved by old 1/10 and 2/10 static plexses.

Jessica Danikov > EVE is your real life. the rest is fantasy. caught in a corporation. no escape from banality. open up yours eyes, peer through pod good and seeeeeee. I'm just a poor pilot, I need no sympathy. because I'm easy scam, easy go, little isk, little know. anyway the solar wind blows...

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#348 - 2013-01-07 23:25:37 UTC
Oreb Wing wrote:
There is a problem with the sec status, but the solution should not be a treasure chest in shark infested water.


Well, that's essentially what the solution to sec status already is. Go out and shoot the biggest fish you can find in shark-infested water. Twisted You do make a good point about losing sec status in the process of trying to gain it back (or at least gain some form of token that someone else could use to do the same) but if its actual pirates you're shooting your way through to get to the treasure, you're not exactly losing sec status by shooting them.

Another intriguing idea that this question leads to, however, is the possiblity of a type of plex variable that actually flags individuals as suspects upon entering. Forget about tying this to the sec status tag pursuit thing for a moment (we're going way too far down that rabbit hole) - what if these were pirate lairs that Concord considered you a scumbag for loitering inside? Or perhaps a Concord security depot where trespassing was forbidden and subject to prosecution? Twisted

Let's not overlook this brand spanking new code structure CCP's invested in, there's a lot of potential there for making some really cool "fight club" hang-out spots depending on how creative they're willing to go with this.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#349 - 2013-01-07 23:37:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
You want a metric? Go look at the number of kills in Heild or Gusandall before and after the changes.

Another metric? Go look at the cost of a well fitted slicer (which 100% requires a b-type mwd). Talk about making PVP more expensive to new players (while more experienced players dont notice the cost of a fitted slicer at all, even with the bump in b-type mwd costs).


The cost increase is because the 2/10 is highsec only, and you can just farm level 4s instead of probing down what is not really a lucrative site. Most of the time you get nothing, and thats assuming you can even find one now. The main effect of this is that newer players cant afford slicers and similar ships as easily, while older richer players can still fly w/e they want.


Also, why take one of the reasons people enter lowsec away, and put yet more pve content into highsec?
Olleybear
Armed And Angry
#350 - 2013-01-08 01:20:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Olleybear
CCP Fozzie wrote:
One idea that came up from the CSM discussion that I would like your opinions on (no promises at this stage):
What would you guys think about the plexes being reintroduced with the same size restrictions but without the NPCs (or without the NPCs in the final room) as a simple location for size restricted pvp decoupled from the DED loot?

No loot = no reason to go to the plex. The CSM in this thread has pointed out why. I would like to add that this would turn the plex into another beacon on the overview like the static npc beacon Golgothan Fields in Ennur and the static npc beacon in Atlar. When you visit these beacons once or twice there is nothing to keep a person interested in going back. Reintroducing the static plexes as you describe without loot, turns the static plexes into another Golgothan Fields.

There are a lot of us who agree with you 100% that the farming of static plexes is a problem. We are with you on that. The farming of the plexes is bad.

There are two things that made the plex farmable that can be changed if the resources are available to make the changes.

The first, and most important, is the static timer for plex respawn. Randomize that timer to occur between 30 minutes and 2 hours after plex completion or whatever time you think would be good. A farmer will no longer be able to log on alt, kill plex, get loot, log off, and set egg timer for next spawn.

The second is the ability of a person to sit in the last room of the plex, both uncloaked and cloaked, waiting until the plex respawns, finishing the plex, then waiting again for plex respawn. Make it so when someone is in any room of the plex, the plex wont respawn.

We understand the moving of the static plexes to the exploration system fixes both of these issues without needing to write any new code, but it brings us right back to why this thread was started in the first place.

Anyways, thanks for taking the time to look at this change again. It is appreciated.

When it comes to PvP, I am like a chiwawa hanging from a grizzley bears pair of wrinklies for dear life.

Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#351 - 2013-01-08 01:25:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Michael Harari
There are plenty of empty beacons all over the place. There is even one left in oddeulf from a live event, that was never removed. Nobody ever goes to them, and they are pretty much a complete waste. I have no idea what content they ever had, apart from that one in oddel.

The reasons fights happened on the plexes is that you were fighting over something.

And moving them to the highsec exporation system doesnt solve much, given how easy and lucrative level 4s are. Moving them to lowsec exploration would be even worse, since it would dilute the better plexes and nobody does lowsec exploration in a frigate anyway

Edit: As for farming the plexes, the ones in lonetrek have awful respawn timers, and I would almost always just take the keys from the first room so I would have spare keys to chase people into deeper rooms. Ive quite a stack of keys now, all quite useless.
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#352 - 2013-01-08 01:53:30 UTC
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
Simply put CCP in pursuit of better hisec PVE annihilated huge chunk of lowsec PVP. If devs can't or refuse to see it that way this whole thread is pointless.



That pretty much sums up this situation. There was an "interesting pve experience" in the low sec ded plexes because of the players that fought over the loot. To call timing the plex, training the best ships and skills for it and teaching new players the ropes while showing them a way to make isk in a pvp fit "farming" is insulting. I think this is where I stop wasting my time with CCP and their frog boiling schemes...


Well, at least we'll still be able to scan down those ded 1 and 2s in low sec. Roll
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#353 - 2013-01-08 02:20:27 UTC
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
[a way to make isk in a pvp fit "farming" is insulting. I think this is where I stop wasting my time with CCP and their frog boiling schemes...


No, plenty of people did farm them, in stabbed cloaky frigates w/e. The thing is, there are numerous way to fix the farming problem that didnt involve nerfing lowsec and reducing the amount of pvp content available, particularly to newer players.
Minmatar Citizen160812
The LGBT Last Supper
#354 - 2013-01-08 02:44:13 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
[a way to make isk in a pvp fit "farming" is insulting. I think this is where I stop wasting my time with CCP and their frog boiling schemes...


No, plenty of people did farm them, in stabbed cloaky frigates w/e. The thing is, there are numerous way to fix the farming problem that didnt involve nerfing lowsec and reducing the amount of pvp content available, particularly to newer players.



I don't know what your crew did to those types but mine would make them history within days....and what's wrong with a plex ninja? He's hangin his meat out there to be chopped off just like the rest of us. Stabbed cloaky frigates on a timer that have to decloak to make an action like going through a gate or scooping loot are vulnurable at that time. Misfit bombers with spare keys, Seboed cruisers fit to catch frigates at the entrance gate...there are many ways to deal with the ninjas. I wouldn't consider them "farmers" in low sec sites either.
Michael Harari
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
#355 - 2013-01-08 03:40:24 UTC
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
[a way to make isk in a pvp fit "farming" is insulting. I think this is where I stop wasting my time with CCP and their frog boiling schemes...


No, plenty of people did farm them, in stabbed cloaky frigates w/e. The thing is, there are numerous way to fix the farming problem that didnt involve nerfing lowsec and reducing the amount of pvp content available, particularly to newer players.



I don't know what your crew did to those types but mine would make them history within days....and what's wrong with a plex ninja? He's hangin his meat out there to be chopped off just like the rest of us. Stabbed cloaky frigates on a timer that have to decloak to make an action like going through a gate or scooping loot are vulnurable at that time. Misfit bombers with spare keys, Seboed cruisers fit to catch frigates at the entrance gate...there are many ways to deal with the ninjas. I wouldn't consider them "farmers" in low sec sites either.


You can consider them what they want, but they were indeed farming the plexes.
Oreb Wing
Last Rites.
Villore Accords
#356 - 2013-01-08 04:26:27 UTC
Michael Harari wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
Michael Harari wrote:
Minmatar Citizen160812 wrote:
[a way to make isk in a pvp fit "farming" is insulting. I think this is where I stop wasting my time with CCP and their frog boiling schemes...


No, plenty of people did farm them, in stabbed cloaky frigates w/e. The thing is, there are numerous way to fix the farming problem that didnt involve nerfing lowsec and reducing the amount of pvp content available, particularly to newer players.



I don't know what your crew did to those types but mine would make them history within days....and what's wrong with a plex ninja? He's hangin his meat out there to be chopped off just like the rest of us. Stabbed cloaky frigates on a timer that have to decloak to make an action like going through a gate or scooping loot are vulnurable at that time. Misfit bombers with spare keys, Seboed cruisers fit to catch frigates at the entrance gate...there are many ways to deal with the ninjas. I wouldn't consider them "farmers" in low sec sites either.


You can consider them what they want, but they were indeed farming the plexes.

I've died a couple of times fighting in plexes. Killed a Dramiel with an Incursus and a Griffin buddy. The fights are there, and so is the Isk if no one else is. It was a great opportunity for nice stuff or a fun fight, which is much different from highsec, where it's either you got there first or too late, with someone already setting the timer for when to come back. In lowsec you could wait for them, in high sec why bother? Unlike exploration, you didn't have to wait for downtime to find something juicy, and as far as I know, exploration sites do not spawn except at downtime. I like the idea of scanning the highsec ones, and leaving the lowsec ones static. It's only that people needed to educate themselves about their existence, and at least like this, newbie explorers would get a taste of what these are worth, to keep or sell, and perhaps give them cause to dare the ones in lowsec when they get lazy like the rest of us! Anyone in lowsec can tell you it's not easy isk if you lose a pirate ship to find them, as that poor fella in Oicx learned. Hell, you even get to know your neighbors by the ticker on the wreck - damn you Gallentius!!! ::shakes fist::
Etuura Zellis
Scarlet Corsairs
#357 - 2013-01-08 04:40:35 UTC
If farming is the primary motive/concern with regards to these sites then I propose the following.

Remove all NPC belt rats to prevent isk/sec status farming.
Remove all exploration content so explorers don't farm sites as they move sysyem to system.
Remove all agents to prevent LP, standings, and bounty farming
Remove all barges to prevent ice/ore farming.

As ridiculous as this sounds it also means there would be no botters, thats a goal too right?
I forgot though it would also remove any chance of us PVPers finding ratters, explorers, missioners and miners to shoot at.

Acceptable loss though amirite?

/endsarcasm
Volstruis
Mise en Abyme
#358 - 2013-01-08 10:02:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Volstruis
Thanks for the reply CCP and as suspected, I think exactly in line with what everybody in this thread already knew.

Anti-farming sentiment from CCP is full of lulz. Thanks Etuura for your eloquence :)
Tetsel
House Amamake
#359 - 2013-01-08 13:13:33 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:

Let's not overlook this brand spanking new code structure CCP's invested in, there's a lot of potential there for making some really cool "fight club" hang-out spots depending on how creative they're willing to go with this.



That's what Amamake top belt is for... fight club, no need for specific area with some specific gamemech/flaging.
Or just put a static complex with reward and you will have a fight club... Oh wait...

Loyal servent to Mother Amamake. @EVE_Tetsel

Another Bittervet Please Ignore

xxxAlloxxx
The Triglavian Cartel
#360 - 2013-01-08 13:56:36 UTC
Firebolt145 wrote:
Laktos wrote:
CCP Fozzie wrote:
Schmata Bastanold wrote:
EDIT after few minutes of flexing my brain muscles:

As much I would like to see our beloved 2/10 plex in Heild back on my overview I wouldn't like it to become a basis for "arenas" in Eve. Dedicated places for pvp have no place in New Eden, period. Beauty of lowsec plexes was in emergent gameplay driven by players "misusing" those beacons. And I am afraid that if you make that first step and put even a hint of "arenas" out there that would make more harm than good in the long run.


I find this argument interesting. Removing existing "arenas" is bad but reintroducing them would be a slippery slope towards something harmful?

Also technically everything in eve is a "dedicated place for pvp", I don't see how adding more variety of locations to pvp would be a bad thing.

To be very clear, this "no NPC" idea is just that, and idea. Don't anyone go getting your hopes up I just want to have a discussion on upsides and downsides.


The 2/10's were never an arena.

They were a naturally formed food chain of pvp content. PVE Guy goes to farm it, PVP Guy 1 hunts him to the plex, PVP Guy 2 hunts PVP Guy 1 etc.

An empty beacon for PVP purposes will be nothing like what the 2/10's were. The 2/10's existed as the PVP hotspot they were because of the DED loot, because of the farming. Low-sec pvp almost always revolves around pve content. Whether its hunting of belt ratters or mission runners, setting up gate camps to catch haulers and freighters, fighting over control of POCO's. Non-FW low sec has no sovereignty mechanic, most of the PVP that happens, happens around PVE content and is initiated by Pirates.

And I still don't understand why letting some farmers farm is worse than destroying a successful and vibrant PVP eco-system in CCP's eyes.

I don't know mate. I get what you're saying, but back in Heild, it was very rare for a fight to start there because 'some poor pve newbie got lost and thought he could make isk here'. It was always started because 'yo guys I feel like pvp I'm gonna get my destroyer/assault frig and warp to the plex at 50km, who wants to come?'

From that point on it became blobbing/people bringing bigger ships/lots of lulz, which is what you said too, but I'm just disagreeing about your statement that it was the pve loot that started it all in the first place.


As someone who formerly hunted these sites for pew, I can confirm that the PVE content is what brought most people down to these sites. Also the reason so much action happened at them was cause pvp'ers were either looking to gank the pve'ers come to run said sites or to fight the other pvp'ers who came to kill w/e was there.

Of course the heild plex was another beast all together. With Black Rebel R1fter around and the rest of the molden community who loved frig fights, that plex had the ability to turn a simple fight into a major frig engagement with multiple party's fighting each other. The "Golden Age" of frig/destroyer PVP in Molden Heath will forever be a happy thought in my mind..

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