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How will crimewatch changes "break" can flipping?

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Gogela
Epic Ganking Time
CODE.
#121 - 2012-08-15 17:18:28 UTC
Well this degenerated into another "Crimewatch waaaaaa" thread pretty fast. You know the aggression and flag mechanics are still being flushed out by the devs. I think until we see a devblog about what they came up with it's a little premature to talk about how upgrading one of the oldest and most fundamental mechanics of the game is a bad thing.

It's a complicated mechanic. I for one can't wrap my head around what they are going to do yet. If you haven't sen the fanfest presentation I encourage you do to so.

Signatures should be used responsibly...
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#122 - 2012-08-15 17:19:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:


I hope the above illustrates how clearly care bears need to HTFU and educate themselves, instead of CCP implementing 'CRIMEWATCH' and effectively killing a whole (enjoyable IMHO) avenue to ad-hoc pvp in hisec....




they arehn't killing it, they are just making the douchebag lifestyle involve a bit more risk. Better cry on forums now.
MIrple
Black Sheep Down
Tactical Narcotics Team
#123 - 2012-08-15 17:20:02 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
MIrple wrote:
Ok so can someone explain to me how with the new mechanics you can gank and loot a freighter after Crimewatch 2.0 with out losing your freighter?


OMG, you mean you actually have to risk your freighter if you want to use a freighter to loot the full cargohold of a freighter that you suicide ganked in high sec? *Gasp* What a concept! Better throw up your hands and bawl all over the forums now. Lol


No please show me how this is possible with the new system.
Adalynne Rohks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#124 - 2012-08-15 17:21:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Adalynne Rohks
Nerf Burger wrote:
Hes either an idiot or a troll, either way not worthy of response. His tears over crimewatch are certainly delicious though. Scrubs are tearing their hair out over a little risk being added to the douchebag lifestyle. I love it.
Thank you CCP.


Chopping peoples' hands off for stealing candy is also called "justice" in some parts of the world.

The punishment should fit the crime. Petty thievery is already punished by the "victim" or any of his corp being able to attack you. Maybe some small tweaks to the mechanics could help, but not a "free for all, vigilante justice on the petty criminal" approach.

You think that ninja looting in a 5mil destroyer under the nose of a 1 billion + tengu doesn't feel risky? :-)

I know this isn't can flipping specifically, but if you mess with can flipping, you mess with everyone else that deals with these mechanics.

Also... I'm looking forward to when I get adequate skills leveled up, so I can bait other ninjas to steal from my corp while my stealth bomber sits and waits. :-) People could pretty easily do this to can flippers too.

edit: quoted wrong quote... derp
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#125 - 2012-08-15 17:24:59 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Adalynne Rohks wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
Andski wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
Andski wrote:
look at everyone talking about canflipping when another effect of crimewatch is making it safer to autopilot a freighter with your life's worth


because high sec ganks should involve zero risk, right? Its amazing the amount of babies who come on the forums to cry when the game gets a little more challenging.


tell me, what's the risk in shooting "suspects" when they can't engage your RR


I don't know whether that is true or not. I heard talk of RR getting flagged when greyscale was talking about crimewatch.


Chopping peoples' hands off for stealing candy is also called "justice" in some parts of the world.

The punishment should fit the crime. Petty thievery is already punished by the "victim" or any of his corp being able to attack you. Maybe some small tweaks to the mechanics could help, but not a "free for all, vigilante justice on the petty criminal" approach.

You think that ninja looting in a 5mil destroyer under the nose of a 1 billion + tengu doesn't feel risky? :-)

I know this isn't can flipping specifically, but if you mess with can flipping, you mess with everyone else that deals with these mechanics.

Also... I'm looking forward to when I get adequate skills leveled up, so I can bait other ninjas to steal from my corp while my stealth bomber sits and waits. :-) People could pretty easily do this to can flippers too.


they are hardly "chopping peoples heads off" for stealing "candy". They could just concord you for can flipping, you know? Way to take things to ridiculous extremes, it really helps your argument.
Quaaid
Phoenix Foundry
#126 - 2012-08-15 17:28:49 UTC
I like the part of this thread where everyone was speaking as though their opinions were based in anything factual.


Opinions aside:
- Can Flipping has risk associated with it.
- Can Flipping can lead to a PvP encounter.
- All else being equal, the Victim of a can flip has the upper hand.


Deal with it nullbears.
Adalynne Rohks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#127 - 2012-08-15 17:29:14 UTC
Nerf Burger wrote:
they are hardly "chopping peoples heads off" for stealing "candy". They could just concord you for can flipping you know? Way to take things to ridiculous extremes, it really helps your argument.


I didn't take anything to extremes. You read "heads" when I clearly wrote "hands". And yes. This happens regularly in some countries.

The point that you refuse to acknowledge is that there are varying levels of crime, which deserve different levels of punishment. Petty thievery being punishable by the victim or his corp being able to explode you seems pretty adequate.

Having an entire city of people trying to kill you as you drive by because you stole 50 bucks is a bit excessive.
Eternal Error
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#128 - 2012-08-15 17:30:43 UTC
Feyd Rautha Harkonnen wrote:
As someone with some...er...experience in this topic, allow me to retort....

Crimewatch vs can or mission wreck flipping is IMHO a blunt instrument response on the failure of CCP and new players to simply educate themselves on game mechanics; an education I offer as a part of my activities :)

Consider the following choices a carebear must make before a can/mission flipper can attack them...

1) Can or mission flipping is not allowed in newb systems, stay in those
- No? Go to step 2

2) If(Mining?) Mine into secure cans not JETTISON cans
- No? Go to step 3

If(Missioning?) Release your wrecks (to blue status) as soon as a pirate enters your pocket
- No? Go to step 3

3) Dont f#$ing shoot if someone loots from your can or wreck. Just ignore them. Period. If you dont shoot, they can't or be CONCORDED.
- No? Really? Ok, go to step 4

4) Reap the result YOU chose based on your previous 3 decisions above

I hope the above illustrates how clearly care bears need to HTFU and educate themselves, instead of CCP implementing 'CRIMEWATCH' and effectively killing a whole (enjoyable IMHO) avenue to ad-hoc pvp in hisec....



This x1000

This topic should be covered in the tutorial, and aggression for stealing should be extended to all alliance members rather than all corporation members. Problem solved.

The planned crimewatch changes are nothing but a reduction in risk and an effort to make highsec safer and Eve Online easier.
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#129 - 2012-08-15 17:30:50 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
Quaaid wrote:
I like the part of this thread where everyone was speaking as though their opinions were based in anything factual.


Opinions aside:
- Can Flipping has risk associated with it.
- Can Flipping can lead to a PvP encounter.
- All else being equal, the Victim of a can flip has the upper hand.


Deal with it nullbears.


apparently ccp disagrees with you, hence these changes that will bring unavoidable risk into can flipping where there was too little before. The can flipper gets to chose whose can he flips, not the other way around. No longer will there be zero risk in flipping someones can that does not have the capacity to retaliate against you. Deal with it, bear-rats
malcovas Henderson
THoF
#130 - 2012-08-15 17:37:44 UTC
Butzewutze wrote:


So you actually stole yourself and got killed for it(kinda). You did not take the chance to defend yourself but you decided to steal back and ignore the other red blinking guy, ignore the scanner, ignore that the container has been changed its color AND ignore the big fat warning window. Why again should we make it easier for you? Because you are stupid?

Do we have to rebuild all the roads now because some people find death while ignoring the "deadend-sign"?



I was 14 days old. OFC at that age I know EVERYTHING about the game. Silly me for doing an action that I surely knew was going to get me killed


Do not try to justify this as my fault. The Canflipper preyed on me because of my lack of ingame knowledge. Logic says you cannot steal your own stuff. I applied that logic and took my stuff back. I lost out. I didn't cry a river of tears. I got even (eventually)
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#131 - 2012-08-15 17:45:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Butzewutze
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Butzewutze wrote:


So you actually stole yourself and got killed for it(kinda). You did not take the chance to defend yourself but you decided to steal back and ignore the other red blinking guy, ignore the scanner, ignore that the container has been changed its color AND ignore the big fat warning window. Why again should we make it easier for you? Because you are stupid?

Do we have to rebuild all the roads now because some people find death while ignoring the "deadend-sign"?



I was 14 days old. OFC at that age I know EVERYTHING about the game. Silly me for doing an action that I surely knew was going to get me killed


Do not try to justify this as my fault. The Canflipper preyed on me because of my lack of ingame knowledge. Logic says you cannot steal your own stuff. I applied that logic and took my stuff back. I lost out. I didn't cry a river of tears. I got even (eventually)



Yeah thats fine. But don't you think an addition to the tutorial that warns you about what might happen should be enough? Do you think that your lack of knowledge justifies a nerf of a playstyle of many other players?
Nerf Burger
Doomheim
#132 - 2012-08-15 17:50:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nerf Burger
malcovas Henderson wrote:
Butzewutze wrote:


So you actually stole yourself and got killed for it(kinda). You did not take the chance to defend yourself but you decided to steal back and ignore the other red blinking guy, ignore the scanner, ignore that the container has been changed its color AND ignore the big fat warning window. Why again should we make it easier for you? Because you are stupid?

Do we have to rebuild all the roads now because some people find death while ignoring the "deadend-sign"?



I was 14 days old. OFC at that age I know EVERYTHING about the game. Silly me for doing an action that I surely knew was going to get me killed


Do not try to justify this as my fault. The Canflipper preyed on me because of my lack of ingame knowledge. Logic says you cannot steal your own stuff. I applied that logic and took my stuff back. I lost out. I didn't cry a river of tears. I got even (eventually)



lack of knowledge is what the awful scrub pvpers in eve prey on. The vast majority of them probably got **** on in other games that require actual skill in combat. You kind of have to feel bad for them that they feel the need to stoop to such low levels of "pvp".
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#133 - 2012-08-15 17:50:19 UTC
Quaaid wrote:
Opinions aside:
- Can Flipping has risk associated with it.
- Can Flipping can lead to a PvP encounter.
- All else being equal, the Victim of a can flip has the upper hand.


- Currently miner or mission runner can't do much to protect themselves against you.
- Can flipping always leads to pvp encounter. And pirate always wins.
- Pirate has the upper hand always.
Quaaid
Phoenix Foundry
#134 - 2012-08-15 17:50:30 UTC
malcovas Henderson wrote:

I was 14 days old. OFC at that age I know EVERYTHING about the game. Silly me for doing an action that I surely knew was going to get me killed


Do not try to justify this as my fault. The Canflipper preyed on me because of my lack of ingame knowledge. Logic says you cannot steal your own stuff. I applied that logic and took my stuff back. I lost out. I didn't cry a river of tears. I got even (eventually)



So with your logic, why is it an issue at all? You played, you lost, you learned and (maybe) got over it. Are you better off for having that experience rather than being sheltered from it?

Noobs are the Jello of the High Sec PvP Buffet. There is always room for more.
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#135 - 2012-08-15 17:51:39 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Quaaid wrote:
Opinions aside:
- Can Flipping has risk associated with it.
- Can Flipping can lead to a PvP encounter.
- All else being equal, the Victim of a can flip has the upper hand.


- Currently miner or mission runner can't do much to protect themselves against you.
- Can flipping always leads to pvp encounter. And pirate always wins.
- Pirate has the upper hand always.


Blödsinn.
Vincent Athena
Photosynth
#136 - 2012-08-15 17:53:19 UTC
Alara IonStorm wrote:
Nerf Burger wrote:
If anything, I would think it fixes can flipping. No longer can people steal your can with potentially zero risk, even if they are picking on brand new characters.

Thank you CCP for bringing more risk/reward into the game.

Zero Risk?

Everyone in your corporation can attack them, they are the only ones who can tackle you so ECM Drones or backup ECM = near guaranteed escape if they have Logi and since they can't fire until you aggress them it means you can do so with a duel web so no kiting or dodging shots and you get to decide before the fight if it is a ship you can 100% beat or escape from.

Can fights are pretty much 100% in favor of victim. Please tell me the zero risk part was ironic.


Everyone in the corp cannot attack. Several other conditions must be true first:

They got to be on-line.
They got to be close enough to get there before the timer runs out.
Its got to not be a NPC corp.

What percent of can flips are won by the victim? My guess is less that 5%. Sure 5% is bigger than zero, so its not zero risk. But its awfully close.

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Frozen fanfiction
Quaaid
Phoenix Foundry
#137 - 2012-08-15 17:54:40 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:

- Currently miner or mission runner can't do much to protect themselves against you.
- Can flipping always leads to pvp encounter. And pirate always wins.
- Pirate has the upper hand always.



You are proving my point. You offer opinion while speaking in fact. Two of your statements are factually incorrect off of context alone, and the other is highly subjective.

This makes you wrong on all sides, unless you would like to share some statistical data to the contrary.
Jorma Morkkis
State War Academy
Caldari State
#138 - 2012-08-15 17:55:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jorma Morkkis
Butzewutze wrote:
Blödsinn.


Show me killmail then.

Quaaid wrote:
You are proving my point. You offer opinion while speaking in fact. Two of your statements are factually incorrect off of context alone, and the other is highly subjective.

This makes you wrong on all sides, unless you would like to share some statistical data to the contrary.


Killmail thing goes to you too.
Adalynne Rohks
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#139 - 2012-08-15 18:00:45 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Quaaid wrote:
Opinions aside:
- Can Flipping has risk associated with it.
- Can Flipping can lead to a PvP encounter.
- All else being equal, the Victim of a can flip has the upper hand.


- Currently miner or mission runner can't do much to protect themselves against you.
- Can flipping always leads to pvp encounter. And pirate always wins.
- Pirate has the upper hand always.


This is funny. Every single "counter point" you made is completely wrong.

-The miner can choose not to jettison valuable cargo, where anyone can reach it.
--This miner can also grab a combat ship to fight the thief, if he wants to.

-Can flipping very often leads to nothing. Most of the time the victim is too worried by the thought of combat, and runs off, or does nothing. Also, it's a pretty simple task to set up a bait can, have a pirate go for it, and blast him before he even realizes what happened. You could either have stealth help, or somebody ready to warp to you immediately after the aggro.

-Pirate only has the upper hand if you allow him to, or are too scared at the thought of what "backup" he or she might have. You choose whether to engage or not. I go up against ships that could pop me in 1 shot all that time. Most of the time they won't shoot me. Don't ask me why. It's not like they can't see that I'm only 1 month old.

Making eve a nice place for brand newbs is a whole different issue than changing crime/punishment mechanics for the rest of the universe.
Butzewutze
Doomheim
#140 - 2012-08-15 18:02:00 UTC
Jorma Morkkis wrote:
Butzewutze wrote:
Blödsinn.


Show me killmail then.

Quaaid wrote:
You are proving my point. You offer opinion while speaking in fact. Two of your statements are factually incorrect off of context alone, and the other is highly subjective.

This makes you wrong on all sides, unless you would like to share some statistical data to the contrary.


Killmail thing goes to you too.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ndWUlntJ58U

U know. there are actually people who want to fight canflippers and prepare for them. There are many hulk against X kills on youtube.