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Crime & Punishment

 
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Hulkageddon made me quit

First post
Author
Eryn Velasquez
#441 - 2012-05-09 14:51:58 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
It's a mechanic particular to that exact ship and has no over-arching bearing on the entire game ecosphere.

What you are suggesting, is CCP steps into a sandbox, decides for the players what is right and wrong and imposes unilateral sanctions that affect the base metric to which people subscribe to the game. Effectiely, you are using a mechanic which "steps out" of the character and applies penalties to the players account and wallet.

Remember, they broke NO RULES when they ganked.

There are already in-game sanctions in place that don't break the sandbox, such as:

- Heavy security status penalties. These are set to get worse.
- You will literally be banned from the game entirely if you try to circumvent the above.
- The victim can freely fire on the ganker anytime, anyplace, for a month.
- The loss of the gankers ship is absolute, the loss of the victims is not
- No insurance on lost gank boats

But no ... you need MORE. You need MORE because checking DScan and leaving the belt when gankers are heading your way is just unacceptable to you.


The thing is - i really want a more realistic system regarding risc and reward. Your points are

- heavy security status penalties, this is true für the occasional ganker, who works it up again by ratting in low or null, it is nozt for the -10 chars - they don't give a **** on sec-status.

- banning for using exploits might be okay - for using game mechanics not.

- yeah, the victim can freely fire - with mining-lasers?

- absolute loss - of course, but it's a calculated loss. The only risc is somebody faster looting/salvaging the wreck as the ganker/alt himself.

- insurance - if you set your car against a wall and everything indicates it was your free decision - show me the insurance that pays, and i make a contract today.

Some weeks ago i thought of something like this, and i still think it would be better for both sides:

Regarding the sec-status of the highsec-systems, give the ganker the chance to get away. Just like in RL, a place in the center of the city will be better guarded by police than some hundred meters or even kilometers away.

This corresponds with the different sec-status, starting by 1.0 down to 0.5 in highsec.

So, in a 1.0 System the chance for the ganker to get away with his own ship and the prey should be significant lower than in a 0.5 system. This can be handled through concord response time, or the way concord deals with the ganker.

Could be something like:
Sec-status - Chance to get caught (don't look too much on the % - they could be lower/higher, just as example)
1.0 - 80%
0.9 - 65%
0.8 - 50%
0.7 - 40%
0.6 - 25%
0.5 - 10%

And then we are at a point, where risc vs reward fits. If you get caught, you loose skillpoints or perhaps have to pay for the damage you made.

You see, i don't stand for a risc-free happy puppy wonderland. But the way it is now, it's bull****.

_“A man's freedom consists in his being able to do whatever he wills, but that he should not, by any human power, be forced to do what is against his will.” ― Jean-Jacques Rousseau _

Fabulousli Obvious
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#442 - 2012-05-09 16:44:52 UTC
Just this absolute WALL of text came out of nowhere and had its way with my eyes. He was brutal too.

I am NOT YOUNG ENOUGH to know EVERYTHING.  ~~ Oscar Wilde, writer, d. November 30, 1900

Vikura
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#443 - 2012-05-09 17:50:12 UTC  |  Edited by: Vikura
Hulkageddon and hisec suiciders a problem?.. There is a solution!



Go play Perpetuum!
Sure it's not ships in space, but robots on the ground. In there "hisec" (alpha islands) are 100% PvP free and players cannot attack each other unless player enables PvP by themself (not possible through canflipping or something, yes you have to enable it). There is no loot stealing either, but the 'wrecks' are owned for a small duration after which it becomes FFA. And there is still the "low-sec/null" islands for those who want to PvP (not so PvP free islands).

It's alot like EVE on how it works, skill system being little different in that, you generate "SP" (EP) that you can then use for your skills (extensions). So no wasted training time either, if you cannot login for some reason! Crafting system is little different also on how you make items.

Target locking, mining, manufacturing, hauling, PvP, PvE, Artifact scanning (explore), Missions, Trading, passive/active modules and the cycle time system, different factions with different weapon systems! It's all there! However... there is no contract system! So no contract scammers either! But you have to either list your stuff in market or directly trade with others in the same station... And hauling is based on either trust or collateral.


Give it a try if EVE's "no 100% safe place" mentality is too much for you.

edit:
oh also, it's WASD movement game, there is no warp to zero, you run the distances and use teleporters ("stargates") between inslands.
/edit.

Blink

Ps. sorry for my crappy english...
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#444 - 2012-05-09 19:06:15 UTC
Eryn Velasquez wrote:
And then we are at a point, where risc vs reward fits. If you get caught, you loose skillpoints or perhaps have to pay for the damage you made.

You see, i don't stand for a risc-free happy puppy wonderland. But the way it is now, it's bull****


Your type just cannot understand that what you are talking about penalizing is a completely legitimate in game action. It's as legitimate as mining rocks.

So.

With that in mind, please tell me why someone who logs on after downtime and strips all the belts of the good stuff shouldn't have to have their SP removed as well. Mine too aggressively? Well its back to Retrievers for you as you retrain Exhumers. Again.

It's stupid, fundamentally flawed on the very base level and the only reason you see it otherwise is because your stupid sodding "right and wrong" compass is being operated within a virtual environment and telling you that some actions should be punished more than others. To explain the problem one last time, you are suggesting sanctions against someones account for actions taken in the game. If you were less bias on this issue you would see how absolutely unhinged suggesting that someone should pay, effectively, an IRL penalty for their actions. Remember (again!) we're not talking RMT or anything against the EULA, you want account sanctions for playing the game as intended.

As for your slightly more legit concerns:

"- heavy security status penalties, this is true für the occasional ganker, who works it up again by ratting in low or null, it is nozt for the -10 chars - they don't give a **** on sec-status."

See, the thing with -10 characters, is you can preemptively fire. So why don't you have someone jamming their Catalysts or exploding them out of the sky? For anything else, you need a lot of ratting. I'm sure you've never actually tried this, but believe me, a few hours of ratting to make up for accidentally nicking the pod as well feels like a consequence.

"yeah, the victim can freely fire - with mining-lasers?"
You know what? Tough ****. If all he can use is mining lasers (and this is rarely ever the case) then he is paying the price for his skill specialization being too narrow. That's his choice. For anyone who hasn't pidgeon holed themselves kill rights are a very useful tool available to them and could end up costing the ganker a lot more than he bargained for. They're seldom used because the player is a giant festering carebear. But, again, their issue. The game is literally giving them a one sided advantage to take advantage of, too ******* bad if they don't.

"absolute loss - of course, but it's a calculated loss. The only risc is somebody faster looting/salvaging the wreck as the ganker/alt himself"

No, there's a legitimate chance the RNG goes against you and your gank fails, and you're out n-ships and the victim loses nothing.

"insurance - if you set your car against a wall and everything indicates it was your free decision - show me the insurance that pays, and i make a contract today."

Not sure on your point here. I stated insurance is void for gankers. I'm not arguing for or against it, I am stating it is a consequence. Your real-world analogies don't help. This is not the real world.

"Regarding the sec-status of the highsec-systems, give the ganker the chance to get away. Just like in RL, a place in the center of the city will be better guarded by police than some hundred meters or even kilometers away."

No, this is always silly. Loss needs to be absolute in this case for balance.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#445 - 2012-05-09 19:07:21 UTC
BTW you may want to notice that Perpeetum online has about 500 people logged on at any one time. So that PVP flag is really boosting their subscriber count!

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Vikura
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#446 - 2012-05-09 22:22:57 UTC
Khanh'rhh wrote:
BTW you may want to notice that Perpeetum online has about 500 people logged on at any one time. So that PVP flag is really boosting their subscriber count!


That or bad advertising. I still would not know about that game if someone did not post about it ~1 year ago in EVE forums... Blink
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#447 - 2012-05-09 22:57:11 UTC
Vikura wrote:
Khanh'rhh wrote:
BTW you may want to notice that Perpeetum online has about 500 people logged on at any one time. So that PVP flag is really boosting their subscriber count!


That or bad advertising. I still would not know about that game if someone did not post about it ~1 year ago in EVE forums... Blink

I don't have any figures, but I have a feeling their player retention is pretty terrible. As in, when I tried it the majority of the forums were posts from people telling the Devs why they weren't going to stay subbed. You get a little of that here, sure, but it struck me as a massive thing over there.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Darek Castigatus
Immortalis Inc.
Shadow Cartel
#448 - 2012-05-10 09:33:47 UTC
So basically miners die, carebears whine and we get to have the same frickin arguement we have every hulkageddon only this time with extra doses of full on ******.

Pirates - The Invisible Fist of Darwin

you're welcome

Natalia LaFontaine
#449 - 2012-05-10 17:01:57 UTC
so i've had an idea that might work. but first, let me say this isn't a "cry for help" from a carebear.

yeah, i'm a highsec miner. i mine highsec because i'm not fond of pvp in this game. but that's ok, since there's maybe things you can do in this game with out pvp i just happen to enjoy mining. makes me feel like i'm fishing. grabe a beer, relax and bs with a friend or two. no big deal.

highsec also provides higher security. unfortunately, this security is a bit lacking in effectiveness. yes, an outlaw will get his ship blown up and all that, but there's a good chance that my tanked hulk will go down in flames as well and that would turn me into a sad panda :(

I would like to see higher security. more concord ships in the system. presence in the asteroid belts in the for of a roaving patrol or permanet station or droid turret. something along those lines. that would be a huge nerf to the pvpers thou and that sucks. i hate nerfs.

in order to balance this, how about an increase in taxes in all highsec stations? higher resear/manufacturing fees? something that would lessen our productivity in highsec. this would encourage the hardcore miners/industrialists to low/null sec while the casual player wouldn't realy care about the higher fees so they would be willing to remain in highsec and pay for enchanced securit?

this would also encourate the carebear pvper to low/null sec as well since a simple highsec gank would be less effective. not impossible, just harder to pull off. the miner cry for isk balance would be adressed as well since it would require gankers to invest in larger, more effective ships to get the job done.

there's probably a number of other things that i'm missing, but i would like to hear any thoughs on this.
Thalen Draganos
Nabisco Liberation Collective
#450 - 2012-05-10 23:33:35 UTC
I'm sure that some one has probably said this before but the solution to the problem the OP has is so simple it's painful.
Eve is a sandbox.
Player based actions are what make this game we all play unique. As such, if you don't want to pvp, than you don't have to. There are ways around it. The only failure is the imagination of the player doing all of the whining.
To ask CCP to restrict one players playing style and allow another to play as they see fit makes the game no longer a sandbox. Plain and simple.
It's just wrong.
If you subscribed to Eve, expecting anything but an unrestricted playing environment than it is you who are the one that is faulty. Not the game. You should have done a great deal more research in the game than you have or haven't done before spending your money.

Putting it simply, Eve is the kitchen. If you can't take the heat, GTFO.
Khanh'rhh
Sparkle Motion.
#451 - 2012-05-10 23:33:39 UTC
The issues with the idea of nerfing highsec rewards with the benefit of better security is it is artificial, and unnecessary. My issues are:

- The hardcore carebear will stay in highsec anyway rather than reap rewards elsewhere (see: PI whine threads .. the current situation anyway, as it happens)
- It creates a bigger step between the "safer" areas and lowsec/null; its a larger barrier for a new player to eventually step over
- There's no solid reason why it would need to be implemented that can't be otherwise assuaged by player competence in the existing system.
- Safety breeds a desire for more safety and does nothing to stop players joining and becoming career carebears, quite the opposite

You're kinda beating up the right tree; the reason to leave highsec should be the greater rewards of other space, both financial and with respect to gameplay opportunities. The way to do this isn't to make the safer zones even safer however, as that corrals people into that safety in a more vigorous manner.

"Do not touch anything unnecessarily. Beware of pretty girls in dance halls and parks who may be spies, as well as bicycles, revolvers, uniforms, arms, dead horses, and men lying on roads -- they are not there accidentally." -Soviet infantry manual,

Jacob Staffuer
Doomheim
#452 - 2012-05-11 18:40:13 UTC
You don't have to quit Eve to continue mining! I gave Helicity 2 billion isk and he added me to the white list. Now, when destroyers warp into my belt, they see me and help kill off the belt rats that spawn before warping off. Paying Helicity was the best investment I've ever made!
Hrothgar Nilsson
#453 - 2012-05-11 20:24:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Hrothgar Nilsson
Jeremy Firewind wrote:
Hey,

I find it totally untolarable, that 3 1 mill Isk ships can easily gank my tanked 300mill hull. Sorry, but this makes me really sad. It put me out of business for good, that was my last money. Your cool event just cost CCP a subscriber.


Yes tears are delightful, yadda, yadda, no stuff is to be had, because it all exploded.

I've been playing this game for 19 whole days, and have made 160 million ISK in the last four days alone. All total, assets+ISK I'm worth about ~250 million ISK.

I don't really see the rationale in throwing away a character with a year's worth of skill points over something a 19-day old dude can earn in 7-8 days. Surely you can do better than me even.

I have a ~35 million ISK PvExor, ~15 million Ninjax, and ~8 million Salvagyst. Don't undock what you can't afford to lose. And in the end, ~300 million can be earned back in a week easily.
Mordecai Braeden
Crescent Custodians
#454 - 2012-05-12 00:22:27 UTC
Diomedes Gambito wrote:
Jeremy Firewind wrote:
Hey,

I find it totally untolarable, that 3 1 mill Isk ships can easily gank my tanked 300mill hull. Sorry, but this makes me really sad. It put me out of business for good, that was my last money. Your cool event just cost CCP a subscriber.


Yes tears are delightful, yadda, yadda, no stuff is to be had, because it all exploded.



I stopped following the thread at 5th page.
Emo-rage-quit ? then just quit no need to open a thread about it, it is as same as jita "I quit scams..."
You obviously failed at learning EVE mechanics, CCP rules and many other out there aspects of EVE and now crying for a hug.

As many said, the warning was out there that HG is coming, but even without it ganking in EVE was always there and in your case there was even team effort (3 pilots co-operated to kill your Hulk), if you look for fair gank isk ratio loss mine in an ibis.
You took out a 300 mil ship out to a .5 system with HG running across Eden and thought you'll make ISK untouchable?
You were wrong, there is no IDDQD god mode cheat (I'll mine in Hulk) in EVE and probably will never be implemented by CCP .

If you chose EVE for your amusement to spend $ to see lasers pop pixels, then EVE was wrong investment.
No idea why you opened this thread for at all.


The way you put your words on here is very cocky and just another reply as a smartass.
Explain to me then why I never heard of Hulkageddon before I was shot in my retriever? Mining, like a boss, but boom gone was my ship. Oh, and not in Low Sec, no no, in High Sec. Bringing out a 10 million ship in my case out in a .7 system with HG running across Eden. I'm flying out there like I'm the king. But damn, it's a retriever and not a Hulk. But still I get ganked because it's Hulkageddon.

I'm a 1 month old player in this game and you have to agree with this on some lvl. It's totally f*cked in the head that you can pwn a 300million ship with just a puny little 2 mill ship in a few shot. Hell even my retriever was pwned in 3 shots.

If a 2 mill ship comes up against a Hulk he should be shooting for 10 minutes to dmg it with it's T1 weaponry and ****** ship. Yet it only takes a few blows and that's what's so f*cked up about this so called "system"

We take days of hard work to get a 300mil ship(without fitting) which can get destroyed by the nearest douchebag within 5 seconds...

HG is just an excuse to nuke miners, but it happens outside HG as well...
I can totally imagine Jeremy quits this game cuz of this ****. Played hard and long to get where he's now. And some stupid kids invent an event to kill the miners -_-'

I thought Eve was a more mature game, guess every game has it's kids in it...
Destiny Corrupted
Deadly Viper Kitten Mitten Sewing Company
R I O T
#455 - 2012-05-12 03:50:56 UTC
Mordecai Braeden wrote:
I'm a 1 month old player in this game and you have to agree with this on some lvl. It's totally f*cked in the head that you can pwn a 300million ship with just a puny little 2 mill ship in a few shot. Hell even my retriever was pwned in 3 shots.

If a 2 mill ship comes up against a Hulk he should be shooting for 10 minutes to dmg it with it's T1 weaponry and ****** ship. Yet it only takes a few blows and that's what's so f*cked up about this so called "system"

I can wreck your $300,000 sports car with a $15 hammer. Also, the cops won't kill me within 20 seconds for doing so.

Mordecai Braeden wrote:
I thought Eve was a more mature game, guess every game has it's kids in it...

You can start whining about kids ruining your game after you learn the difference between a possessive and a contraction.

I wrote some true EVE stories! And no, they're not of the generic "my 0.0 alliance had lots of 0.0 fleets and took a lot of 0.0 space" sort. Check them out here:

https://truestories.eveonline.com/users/2074-destiny-corrupted

Ispia Jaydrath
Reib Autonomous Industries
#456 - 2012-05-12 04:47:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Ispia Jaydrath
Mordecai Braeden wrote:
Explain to me then why I never heard of Hulkageddon before I was shot in my retriever?


Because you're poorly informed. If you had paid any attention to anything about eve - NPC corp chat, newbie help, local, eve forums, en24, blogs, twitter, gaming media, anything - you could not have failed to hear about burn jita and hulkageddon.

You didn't, so you lost your ship.

Knowledge is power. I recommend getting some.
Majuan Shuo
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
#457 - 2012-05-12 04:50:08 UTC
can i have your thoughts?

"It's easy to speak for the silent majority. They rarely object to what you put into their mouths." - Abrazzar

Hrothgar Nilsson
#458 - 2012-05-12 05:43:03 UTC
Now I'm only ~20 days old here, but...

Are you miner guys just out there solo mining oblivious to everything around you and alternative methods?

Here's a few things that seems like a no-brainer to me:


  • post scouts at the stargates monitoring who's entering the system.
  • a scout fleeted w/a miner can see if gankers entering the system align themselves to where hulks are when warping. gives hulk a headstart on warping out and docking.
  • scouts can also see if probes are being launched, give a head's up.
  • pre-align yourself toward a starbase when mining to eliminate alignment time.

Tysinger
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#459 - 2012-05-12 05:59:00 UTC
Shoulda Checked Local

Nuff said :)
Tarryn Nightstorm
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
#460 - 2012-05-12 14:38:35 UTC
Plekto wrote:
About "tanking".

You do realize that there are other ways to tank than shields and armor? If the enemy can't lock you or has no cap after the first volley, its over for them. Why is this important? Because all of the enemies know that it takes two volleys in 4 or 5 of these destroyers to get the job done. They almost never send more than 4 or 5 destroyers or cruisers.

You're down to low armor after the first volley and then... ... .... Concord finishes them, since no ganker usually fits ECCM on these ships. (note - a passive targeter is key here so they don't know you have ECM/jammers/etc fitted)

Note - for more advanced tactics, you could use a stealth bomber as support. Unlock, target your Hulk (all in less than a second) and fire off a void bomb. You might lose the bomber, but you'd certainly end up getting the gankers killed by concord as it would make their caps all drop to 0. Since their weapons take 4 or 5 seconds to cycle, you have enough time to pull this off.

And these are just off the top of my head. There are TONS of things you can do to protect yourself. You just have to do so (#1 is to get into a corp with PVPers along for the ride)


So bombs can be launched in hisec now?

1/10.

Star Wars: the Old Republic may not be EVE. But I'll take the sound of dual blaster-pistols over "NURVV CLAOKING NAOW!!!11oneone!!" any day of the week.