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Warfare & Tactics

 
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More FW changes on SiSi

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Author
chatgris
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Villore Accords
#761 - 2012-05-16 20:00:44 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I'd much rather engage aggressors when my system is at 5% contested instead of 95% contested, but maybe that's just me.


I'd rather wait until they flipped the system so I can get some reward for plexing. (I'd probably still fight them in the plex if they were there, just not run the button).

I say this because I think people will quickly realize it's not worth putting any LP into the IHUB just to have it drained away while you sleep.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#762 - 2012-05-16 20:01:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
The linked battle report? Spanning a whopping 5+ hours with Goddess knows how many reships on either side?

Welcome to the downside of basing ones intel/arguments on killboard statistics.

Not complaining about what war is but what it has become. Two years ago, before you were wired probably, all we had to contend with was a couple of neutral logistics accompanying fleets .. now we have frigates rarely laeving safe harbour without a neutral booster in tow and fleets only engaging if stars are aligned, peaches are in blossom and everyone has their socks on right.

In short: The fun has been sucked out of FW.

PS: Shakor is your lord and master .. and he has had his subjects re-educated for less than what you just did Smile
PPS: When I said "just". I meant 20 minutes ago and was not referring to whatever links were provided.
Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#763 - 2012-05-16 20:13:36 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
By the way, give input in the official Soon™ threads"

FW: rebalancing NPCs and you.

FW: I-hub and system upgrades

Quoted for Truth.

Lets take the axe grinding to a place where CCP don't get nervous ticks from reading the entries.

Also, did they throw away the feedback from the similar threads they (and we) made just prior to forums being revamped or is their short term memory just that bad?
Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
#764 - 2012-05-16 20:14:18 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Two years ago, before you were wired probably, all we had to contend with was a couple of neutral logistics accompanying fleets .. now we have frigates rarely laeving safe harbour without a neutral booster in tow and fleets only engaging if stars are aligned, peaches are in blossom and everyone has their socks on right.


Pretty much this, not to mention all the well-known bugs which get used. Apparently minmatar have also discovered a bug where captured plex does not count towards occupancy though is otherwise closed as normal. This was new to me but rest assured I will soon find it (Like I found one which they will insert to game on 23rd)

Isn't it grand that biggest tactics in system occupancy revolve around alts, bugs and rampant meta-gaming Lol
Lock out
Shadows Of The Federation
#765 - 2012-05-17 05:04:56 UTC
Joanna Ramirez wrote:
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
Two years ago, before you were wired probably, all we had to contend with was a couple of neutral logistics accompanying fleets .. now we have frigates rarely laeving safe harbour without a neutral booster in tow and fleets only engaging if stars are aligned, peaches are in blossom and everyone has their socks on right.


Pretty much this, not to mention all the well-known bugs which get used. Apparently minmatar have also discovered a bug where captured plex does not count towards occupancy though is otherwise closed as normal. This was new to me but rest assured I will soon find it (Like I found one which they will insert to game on 23rd)

Isn't it grand that biggest tactics in system occupancy revolve around alts, bugs and rampant meta-gaming Lol


Well I don't know about bugs because I don't plex that much, but I thought when you say Eve, you say alts and metagaming ? Why would FW be an exception ?
Kuehnelt
Devoid Privateering
#766 - 2012-05-17 06:56:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Kuehnelt
chatgris wrote:
I'd rather wait until they flipped the system so I can get some reward for plexing. (I'd probably still fight them in the plex if they were there, just not run the button).

I say this because I think people will quickly realize it's not worth putting any LP into the IHUB just to have it drained away while you sleep.


The multiplier on your LP store costs depends on the number of systems you have and on how upgraded they are. So, let's look at this purely hypothetical example:

1. one side ends up with 10+ systems but they're all fully upgraded and can easily remain so except when the other side parks half of their forces in one system for half a day;

2. the other side has 40+ systems but only two of them are fully upgraded, because this side is completely absent from most of these systems and can't police them to the point where it'd make sense to invest any LP into them.

3. the first side can still lose LP invested into its space, but mostly after a fight. The second side will lose LP invested into its space mostly without being able to bring a fight.

4. Therefore, the LP multiplier each side will be... I have no idea.

Maybe something crazy like this scenario will come to pass and we'll be able to see.

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
But seriously, complaining about boosters?


Yep.

Quote:
Is this what Faction Warfare has come to, where we sit around asking each other politely to not use certain ships and than calling each other cheaters if we do ?


Bolded the incorrect bits. You can only ever bring Dramiels to minor plexes, too, and you'll begin to note weird patterns of behavior in your enemies (why are they so rude? Why do they keep leaving?), and you may even get so used to justifying your actions that you settle on a few that sound particularly good to your ear ("if you don't like it, buy your own Loki booster alt"; "This is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARTA"). But don't be so ******* surprised every time you're called out about it.
Rel'k Bloodlor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#767 - 2012-05-17 07:10:39 UTC  |  Edited by: Rel'k Bloodlor
So to upgrade a system all the way is 100k LP and you can buffer it with 150k more, am i right?(got no sisi right now)
So getting it up there is not to bad, in the corp I'm in now thats still do able. One week end of all of us running FW missions and poof several systems upped to max. The buffer seems small tho, why dose it cap at all? Also are they going to implement a corp/alliance way to pool LP? if not this is going to be a head ache to manage and I'm calling not it right now for the Gall side.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Vordak Kallager
New Order Outreach Division
CODE.
#768 - 2012-05-17 08:01:42 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
Bolded the incorrect bits. You can only ever bring Dramiels to minor plexes, too, and you'll begin to note weird patterns of behavior in your enemies (why are they so rude? Why do they keep leaving?), and you may even get so used to justifying your actions that you settle on a few that sound particularly good to your ear ("if you don't like it, buy your own Loki booster alt"; "This is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARTA"). But don't be so ******* surprised every time you're called out about it.


Not sure who you are fighting in the warzone, but LNA rarely uses Boosters or any of the other mechanics you are whining about. The only time, as an FC, I start thinking about Booster alts is when the numbers are hitting 30+ on both sides and you need that extra edge OR, if we are heavily outnumbered or out-Blackbirded (yes, its a thing) then I'm seeing if anyone has a Booster we can toss in command to even the odds. At worst, the most we might do is hopelessly blob you to death, but our Comms are open to all militia members and who am I to throw people out of fleet. vOv

IDK how the Euros run, not too familiar with their fleets. vOv

Sa souvraya niende misain ye.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#769 - 2012-05-17 13:55:35 UTC
Kuehnelt wrote:
The multiplier on your LP store costs depends on the number of systems you have and on how upgraded they are.


Like you said though, we don't how much of an effect upgrading has verus gaining systems. CCP is asking us to give feedback on a system that they have not explained.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Jimmy Nickson
The Lucky Star
#770 - 2012-05-17 13:56:20 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:
Kuehnelt wrote:
Bolded the incorrect bits. You can only ever bring Dramiels to minor plexes, too, and you'll begin to note weird patterns of behavior in your enemies (why are they so rude? Why do they keep leaving?), and you may even get so used to justifying your actions that you settle on a few that sound particularly good to your ear ("if you don't like it, buy your own Loki booster alt"; "This is WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARTA"). But don't be so ******* surprised every time you're called out about it.


Not sure who you are fighting in the warzone, but LNA rarely uses Boosters or any of the other mechanics you are whining about. The only time, as an FC, I start thinking about Booster alts is when the numbers are hitting 30+ on both sides and you need that extra edge OR, if we are heavily outnumbered or out-Blackbirded (yes, its a thing) then I'm seeing if anyone has a Booster we can toss in command to even the odds. At worst, the most we might do is hopelessly blob you to death, but our Comms are open to all militia members and who am I to throw people out of fleet. vOv

IDK how the Euros run, not too familiar with their fleets. vOv


LNA running boosters rarely see, but IO.... >_> never see them running around without one. if not 3

personaly couldn't care about boosters, use em myself, so I'm just stating facts here not complaining =P
Fire ze missiles!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#771 - 2012-05-17 14:10:16 UTC
chatgris wrote:
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
I'd much rather engage aggressors when my system is at 5% contested instead of 95% contested, but maybe that's just me.


I'd rather wait until they flipped the system so I can get some reward for plexing. (I'd probably still fight them in the plex if they were there, just not run the button).

I say this because I think people will quickly realize it's not worth putting any LP into the IHUB just to have it drained away while you sleep.



And the stated benefits to putting lp in an ihub are not exactly compelling.

The big question is how much will the upgrades effect the 16x multiplier. Is it going to be effected more by just the raw number of systems or is it going to be effected much more by the lp upgrades?

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#772 - 2012-05-17 16:35:42 UTC
I've asked CCP to post the Warzone Control formulas here for everyone to see, hoping to get you guys some clarification soon.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#773 - 2012-05-17 16:39:28 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
As I understand the idiocy coming, losing plexes in a non-upgraded system has zero impact on warzone control unless it actually flips. So as long as its a 'chaff' system you can wait for as long as you want (until flipping) before dropping a blob in there to counter with no adverse effects .. as they are still not killing of the DT shuffle, I reckon the post-DT action will be back in full force for defenders as they get no immediate benefit so will want to minimize time spent plexing.

PS: You just ran out 20 Amarr with a 50 man triple neut boosted fleet .. calling you Shakorites for blobbers in very appropriate Smile


Yeah but if that "blob" is dropped at the 11th hour when a system is 99% contested wouldn't the smaller ninja plexing group just go away and come back later and continue the contesting later. The "blob" arriving doesn't automatically uncontest 35 hours worth of effort - it simply delays the flip. Unless the defenders are willing to put 35 hours worth of counter plexing into this "chaff" system then the place will continue to be a likely target.

The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Jade Constantine
Jericho Fraction
The Star Fraction
#774 - 2012-05-17 16:46:34 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
The linked battle report? Spanning a whopping 5+ hours with Goddess knows how many reships on either side? Welcome to the downside of basing ones intel/arguments on killboard statistics. Not complaining about what war is but what it has become. Two years ago, before you were wired probably, all we had to contend with was a couple of neutral logistics accompanying fleets .. now we have frigates rarely laeving safe harbour without a neutral booster in tow and fleets only engaging if stars are aligned, peaches are in blossom and everyone has their socks on right.

In short: The fun has been sucked out of FW.


I'm a little bit astonished at your assessment here Veshta. Because I'm wondering if you and I have been in the same local the last few nights. I've seen you docked continuously in the top station kourm right enough - but I can't really believe you are talking about the same continual skirmishes and fights I've been part of now.

Last night for example was 5-6 hours of wall to wall plexing fights in different sizes of ships - typically yes the Amarr were a little bit outnumbered, but your guys were playing an ECM dominance strategy (6-8 blackbirds etc) and it was clear the Minmatar needed more firepower to shoot through that. Despite the disparities there was a continuous round of fighting - dessies, cruisers, battlecruisers, tier 3s - the Amarrians even brought out an armour battleship fleet with guardian support at one point.

I'd estimate several hundred players were involved in running battles and skirmishes in the warzone as the 24th tried desperately to take Kourm and the TLF scrambled to defend it.

And through it all you were docked in the top station kourm rather than fleeting up with your militia-mates and I have to wonder if this is the reason you are finding FW experience now "ruined" rather than anything CCP are planning.


The True Knowledge is that nothing matters that does not matter to you, might does make right and power makes freedom

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#775 - 2012-05-17 17:08:30 UTC
Cearain wrote:

The big question is how much will the upgrades effect the 16x multiplier. Is it going to be effected more by just the raw number of systems or is it going to be effected much more by the lp upgrades?


on sisi at the moment.

Minmatar/Amarr warzone has 70 systems and the total warzone control is determined on a scale of 420 points.

Which means each system is worth 6 points. 1 point for capturing it, and 1 point for each upgrade level.

this matches what the FW tooltips say on sisi. "sum of conquered systems and their upgrade levels"

for the Minmtar/amarr warzone, the intervals between lp store offers changing are every 84 points.

which means, to avoid the worst LP offers, you'd need to hold 14 fully upgraded systems. 6x14 =84, should be enough, tho 85 would probably work better. which means 15 systems.


Not sure, but it looks to me, that in the Gallente/Caldari warzone, people may have to put LP into upgrading stationless systems, in order to improve their LP store offers. Which is a bit... odd.

Distribution of stationless systems is ofc uneven. Think minmatar have 3, amarr 7 systems ? not sure. maybe something for CCP to look at at some point.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#776 - 2012-05-17 17:43:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Veshta Yoshida
Jade Constantine wrote:
... Unless the defenders are willing to put 35 hours worth of counter plexing into this "chaff" system then the place will continue to be a likely target.

Hence my prediction that post-DT plexing will be in style again as it can offer up 7-8 hours worth of plexes in one fell swoop. Careful management of which systems are 'taken' can minimize the time needed to defend them ..
Jade Constantine wrote:
...And through it all you were docked in the top station kourm rather than fleeting up with your militia-mates and I have to wonder if this is the reason you are finding FW experience now "ruined" rather than anything CCP are planning.

Busy managing my assets (read: running for the hills Big smile) as CCP in all their idiocy wisdom refuses to address the balance issues they were first made aware of 3+ years ago and will proceed with their plan of station lock-outs and massively exploitable LP incentives/farms.
Most of my 5B in assets are deployed in the theatre, and with balance being non existent plus active numbers being skewed as per normal for season, the patch will push us out of LS regardless of how well/hard we may fight. Thanks to the new mechanics being designed to keep a downed militia down barring an insane influx of new blood chances are the Shakorites will "win" the war courtesy of Icelandic drunkards.

FW was ruined when CCP decided it was a good idea to ignore us for three years and then suddenly want to implement mechanics introduced/spearheaded by null and assorted FW noobs, that very few FW hard-liners wants/needs .. most of us are here to get away from the faggotry of null mechanics .. guess the joke is on us.

Bitter is for noobs. Sour is the new black!
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#777 - 2012-05-17 18:10:18 UTC
Valerie Valate wrote:
Cearain wrote:

The big question is how much will the upgrades effect the 16x multiplier. Is it going to be effected more by just the raw number of systems or is it going to be effected much more by the lp upgrades?


on sisi at the moment.

Minmatar/Amarr warzone has 70 systems and the total warzone control is determined on a scale of 420 points.

Which means each system is worth 6 points. 1 point for capturing it, and 1 point for each upgrade level.



Awesome thanks for going through this. So we can upgrade systems that have no stations?



Valerie Valate wrote:


for the Minmtar/amarr warzone, the intervals between lp store offers changing are every 84 points.

which means, to avoid the worst LP offers, you'd need to hold 14 fully upgraded systems. 6x14 =84, should be enough, tho 85 would probably work better. which means 15 systems..



But doesn't that assume that all of the other sides systems are fully upgraded. If minmatar held 56 systems none of which were upgraded then amarr would not need to upgrade any of their systems. I think they do the back end math to figure out where you stand on the scale of 420. So if no systems of either side are upgraded then when you capture a system it is really worth 6 points on the 420 scale not one.


I like that it is cheaper lp wise to upgrade a new system to level 1 rather than to upgrade the same system to level 2. This should encourage factions to upgrade more systems that are more spread out rather than just upgrading the same system.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Valerie Valate
Church of The Crimson Saviour
#778 - 2012-05-17 18:26:44 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Awesome thanks for going through this. So we can upgrade systems that have no stations?


Yes. Ezzara (0 stations) appears as upgraded.

Cearain wrote:

But doesn't that assume that all of the other sides systems are fully upgraded?


No ?

here's a picture:
http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/bloodnuns/20120517181821.jpg

the minmatar have not upgraded all systems to V and don't get the benefit from the lp stores.

If the minmatar took all 70 systems, but none were upgraded, they'd only have 70 points, and would still have the worst lp store offers.

Doctor V. Valate, Professor of Archaeology at Kaztropolis Imperial University.

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#779 - 2012-05-17 18:42:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Cearain
Valerie Valate wrote:
Cearain wrote:

Awesome thanks for going through this. So we can upgrade systems that have no stations?


Yes. Ezzara (0 stations) appears as upgraded.

Cearain wrote:

But doesn't that assume that all of the other sides systems are fully upgraded?


No ?

here's a picture:
http://i1195.photobucket.com/albums/aa394/bloodnuns/20120517181821.jpg

the minmatar have not upgraded all systems to V and don't get the benefit from the lp stores.

If the minmatar took all 70 systems, but none were upgraded, they'd only have 70 points, and would still have the worst lp store offers.



Ok I see so by doing offensive plexes that drops the enemy a level you are not thereby boosting your sides lp multiplier. You are only hurting their lp multiplier.

They seemed to indicate the multiplier was based on a comparison of the two factions when they said:

"That is why progress will now be tracked by counting the number of solar systems held, how many upgrades are installed for each faction and compared to the faction's enemy over the regions being competed for."

But the multiplier doesn't really involve a "comparison" of your territory and upgrades with the enemies. It is just how many points of a possible total you get.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#780 - 2012-05-17 18:55:07 UTC
Cearain wrote:

Ok I see so by doing offensive plexes that drops the enemy a level you are not thereby boosting your sides lp multiplier. You are only hurting their lp multiplier.

They seemed to indicate the multiplier was based on a comparison of the two factions when they said:

"That is why progress will now be tracked by counting the number of solar systems held, how many upgrades are installed for each faction and compared to the faction's enemy over the regions being competed for."

But the multiplier doesn't really involve a "comparison" of your territory and upgrades with the enemies. It is just how many points of a possible total you get.


I think they mean that you can see a graphical indicator in the new UI that compares the two faction's progress level, even if a direct ratio between the two doesn't factor into the warzone control rewards.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary