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Warfare & Tactics

 
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More FW changes on SiSi

First post
Author
Hidden Snake
Inglorious-Basterds
Plexodus
#721 - 2012-05-15 09:40:46 UTC
Joanna Ramirez wrote:
Cearain wrote:
I don’t think this is hans’s fault though. I just wish ccp would recognize what the people who voted for hans had in mind.


Doubtful. Hans is basicly laughing at feeble Amarr/Caldari now in his blog, somehow living in fantasy land that total number of active pvp pilots (not mission w..res) is anywhere near balanced. And he says "Recruit more you "n00blets". Yeah, great recruiting pitch "Enemy has more numbers and makes 4-16 times for isk than us for same effort, but you want to join us and not them because....because...um....can't figure a reason really".

Distrust breeds hatred, hatred fuels war, and war brings fights. CCP’s expansion is already working as intended. = Hans.

Yes, we distrust and hate our enemy (at least everyone should, otherwise why are you playing eve) but that does not mean we are not rational human beings. This in turn causes us to make sure that said sub-human filth (= enemy, like Hans) cannot gank us and get the abovementioned isk boost since there are other options to go along.


Spies? Role Players? Fools .....

.... oh yeah

well happy with my band of bitter vets ....
Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#722 - 2012-05-15 11:25:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Dirk Smacker
Sui'Djin wrote:

Sad story, but this is not your fault Hans. All those ignorants starting flame wars to you did obviously not listen to you from the very beginning. I imagine this design decision must be VERY frustrating for you, to say the least.

It wasn't Chiang Kai-shek's fault Japan invaded China.

It wasn't the fault of whoever the Polish leader was back then that the Germans and Russians invaded his country.

The reason Chiang Kai-shek is a historical name and whoever was running Poland is not is Chiang Kai-shek made so much noise about how jacked up the occupation was, he eventually got the help. Whoever represented the Poles did not and they faced occupation until the Cold War ended, and the Solidarity Movement (which put up a big stink) helped end it.

We want Hans to be more like Chiang Kai-shek and less like the appeasers who time forgot.

BTW, Chiang Kai-shek had a smokin wife with tig ol bitties. More motivation for Hans.

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.

Joanna Ramirez
Intaki Militia
#723 - 2012-05-15 11:29:11 UTC
Dirk Smacker wrote:
The reason Chiang Kai-shek is a historical name and whoever was running Poland is not is Chiang Kai-shek made so much noise about how jacked up the occupation was, he eventually got the help.


In the end Chiang still had his own island resort though. What did Poland have except ruined cities and ethnic population hated in equal measure by the Germans and Russians...
Dirk Smacker
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#724 - 2012-05-15 11:41:13 UTC
Joanna Ramirez wrote:

In the end Chiang still had his own island resort though.

More motivation for Hans. Who wouldn't want one of them?

I guess once you have a signature, you cannot have a blank one.

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#725 - 2012-05-15 12:15:16 UTC
Rel'k Bloodlor wrote:
1) The new FW front page, if Iterated(and works) becomes arguably the most powerful Intel tool in game. that's a huge change in how we will play, the unwashed masses will start showing up weather us organised groups like it or not. As every one gets to know were the action is...

Mind elaborating on that? Are they changing what is shown in the tabs? Judging by the screenshot used in the blog all they have done is add a tab containing a great big warning label and the other tabs are called same as current.

PS: Anything has huge potential if iterated upon, but the devil is in the details. On paper the current map is the most powerul tool until one realises that a system can go from uncontested to vulnerable in the time it takes for the damn thing to register it .. just sayin' Big smile
Rel'k Bloodlor
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#726 - 2012-05-15 14:01:45 UTC
Its the map, but just your war zone+activity based on plexing and combat. Its more accessible than the map. Im posting from my lap top now one i get home ill list all it dose here for debate.

I wanted to paint my space ship red, but I couldn't find enough goats. 

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#727 - 2012-05-15 14:55:30 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
PS: Anything has huge potential if iterated upon, but the devil is in the details. On paper the current map is the most powerul tool until one realises that a system can go from uncontested to vulnerable in the time it takes for the damn thing to register it .. just sayin' Big smile


The new UI is much more useful than the previous militia tabs (LOL @ "news" from two years ago) and is just a framework for more features to be added in the subsequent inferno releases. So yes, there will certainly be iterations upon it. Right now there is information regarding warzone control and victory points, as well as a tab that has information for new players on "how to do" Faction Warfare, more or less.

That one made me especially happy, since I had previously spoken about new player experience and the fact that the FW UI had great potential for empowering new recruits by showing them where to go and what to do. My long-term goal is to refine this such that we can permanently end the pattern of new players sitting around in militia chat x-ing up for fleets, and give them enough tools that they can find the action on their own, and meet friends and form relationships on the battlefield instead of in stations. The new UI is a great step in that direction.

Also, the slider bar that demonstrates the percentage of contestment is pretty cool, its a concept players have been putting to use for some time now through a custom app, and now is available to EVERY faction warfare pilot through the new UI.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Princess Nexxala
Quantum Cats Syndicate
#728 - 2012-05-15 15:14:42 UTC
Over use of ellipses makes you awesome btw....

Hidden Snake wrote:

Spies? Role Players? Fools .....

.... oh yeah

well happy with my band of bitter vets ....



Actually I think that addition is going to help a lot more then some people probably think. I see a lot of new blood in FW that want to help but don't know how and quit after a few days of no one willing to fill them in on what to do.

Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:


That one made me especially happy, since I had previously spoken about new player experience and the fact that the FW UI had great potential for empowering new recruits by showing them where to go and what to do. My long-term goal is to refine this such that we can permanently end the pattern of new players sitting around in militia chat x-ing up for fleets, and give them enough tools that they can find the action on their own, and meet friends and form relationships on the battlefield instead of in stations. The new UI is a great step in that direction.

nom nom

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#729 - 2012-05-15 15:59:37 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

@Hans: Our efforts to influence the CSM/process came too late, best you can do is make sure they start the resuscitation in a timely fashion.


I was pretty clear during the campaign that much of the expansion may very well be set in stone by the time I took office, in fact many brought this up repeatedly, asking me why I was running even though my election might be “too late” to do much about Inferno. The reason I ran has always been to make sure that no matter what was implemented, there was an experienced FW participant on the CSM to help with iterating upon whatever CCP had come up with. I’ll be doing this regardless of whether anyone else on the forum wants me to or believes I’m doing it, that’s just my responsibility.

I knew full well my influence on the first pass of changes would be limited, and I knew full well that we’d have consequences (good and bad) that would need monitoring and adjustment. I knew full well that people would blame me for everything that they didn’t like in Inferno, whether or not it was my fault. I knew full well that sometimes CCP can be stubborn, and that’s why I made a pointed effort to go over the worst-case scenarios everyone’s been describing in this thread, I’d done so long before any of you ever saw anything on SiSi.

All that to say, regardless of the “FW is ******, they’ve broken it forever” attitudes floating around these threads (which get more and more useless by the day – I cannot even believe the ridiculous Chiang Kai-shek banter, are you guys really trying to stay relevant here?) I’m going to keep doing what I’ve been doing, and what I was elected to do. The reason i'm not in panic mode is that the dedicated team CCP's tasked on to FW up until the next expansion means I will have more opportunity to help you all get your concerns addressed than any of us could have ever imagined even during the rosy optimism of campaign season. It's just not going to happen now, deadlines are deadlines.


Veshta Yoshida wrote:
@CCP: Making life altering decisions based on die rolls is a valid way of managing ones life, but doing so where the lives of others are involved is not. Apply your grey for Goddess sake.


Not sure if serious. Roll First off, I hope to god / goddess/whatever that you don’t actually believe that rolling dice is a valid way of managing one’s life.

Secondly, the “lives are at stake” language is way overblown and isn’t going to get you anywhere with the developers. The more extreme people’s postings become, whether they’re treating this like a civil rights issue or a matter of “managing lives”, the less CCP’s going to take feedback from those individuals seriously, if they’re even still looking at this thread by now.
Now some of you are here just to vent at me and call me names, that’s totally fine. Some just want to extend their role play into the forums – that’s totally fine too, but there’s a separate forum for that, it has nothing to do with the CSM.

For those here that are trying to actually accomplish something in terms of sharing feedback to CCP (and I know many of you are) – I just want to make sure everyone is clear that the **** talking and role playing are completely counterproductive and reflect quite poorly on the community as a whole.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#730 - 2012-05-15 16:14:11 UTC
Deen Wispa wrote:


I wish I was a fly on the wall for that meeting. I really don't know why these guys would give you flack considering your advice is just common sense stuff. Anyone who has been in the warzone for a month can see the value in your advice.

I barely got to fight yesterday during Enaluri but alot of the GalMil guys were giving Caldari props for rallying that many people. Just imagine how much more competitive it would be if they actually had any sort of organization and fleet doctrine


Well you have never tried to work with other corps with-in Caldari Militia.. Anything that might sound like common sense to anyone outside Caldari Militia just falls on death ears to those inside.


Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#731 - 2012-05-15 16:50:54 UTC
Vordak Kallager wrote:

Well, the problem isn't necessarily the mechanics, its the people. Currently, Minmatar and Gallente are simply bigger and more numerous. There isn't anything CCP can do to change that. I don't think its fair for CCP to limit participation from the bigger side in favor of the little guy; that isn't the way CCP has historically built EVE Online.

And if they did somehow create some restriction on how many people of each militia could be in a system or in a plex at a single time, that system would get horribly abused and be hopelessly ineffective. Regardless of whatever mechanics CCP decides to throw at us, the problem is that we are simply bigger/stronger than the Amarr and likewise for the Gallente. Nothing CCP does will change that, it is up to the Amarr and Caldari themselves to a) recruit more or b) cooperate/coordinate with the #s they have better or c) do nothing, leave the warzone, and let the Minmatar/Gallente to stagnate/atrophy with no targets until the sides are once more at an equilibrium.

That is the way the warzones have always been, Inferno isn't going to change this very fundamental aspect of the war.


First no one is suggesting limitting the number of people in a system or plex.

However when ccp implements mechanics that promote blobbing that is a problem. For example no one being able to dock will severely limit the number of different systems the losing side can hit at at the same time. (thereby splitting up the blob) Hence the effectiveness of having a blob is amplified. This is the sort of pro null sec mechanic that is a big part of the new system. Do you think limitting where people can base out of hurts blobbing?

This and other reasons how this will lead to more blob warfare have been explained, so I won't go through them again - unless you missed them.

Your solutions:

A) recruit more. Why not just say get your own blob? I am not interested in the politics of recruiting and "empire building". I wanted to be in a "fight club." What happened to those ideals?

Also note what damarr said. Recruiting for the losing side is pretty hard to do if you have a rational person. The only way you will be able to turn the tide is if you can get some sort of large alliance on your side. And well that again will just make this more like null sec.

B) I really don't know what do you mean by "cooperate/coodinate" better? Do you mean all form into the same big blobby fleet instead of having numerous small gangs? If I wanted to join a blob I would be in null sec already.

C) Why is it so wrong to express our thoughts on the forums to let ccp and csm know what we think?

The war zone is not going to be the same as it has always been. Its going to change due to the mechanics ccp is putting into the game. For people who like sov null sec and big blobby fights it will be better. I am happy for them. But I also say to them why not just leave that in null sec and give people who like more frequent less blobby pvp a single mechnanic. Just one.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#732 - 2012-05-15 16:55:26 UTC
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
...The new UI is much more useful than the previous militia tabs ...

So the 'new' interface is the old interface with an added "FW for Dummies" entry .. but with possibility of snazzy stuff sometime Soon™ (pretty much what they said about the current interface by the way), so as I expected..
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
..It's just not going to happen now, deadlines are deadlines..

They have postponed or outright axed plenty of things in the past when common sense started slapping them around .. this new concept of pouring **** into the game with intent to see what sticks and then iterate on that is beyond idiotic. Who the hell makes mechanics designed to specifically to make 5-10k people lose interest in the product (CCP SW wants militias to collapse).
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
Not sure if serious. Roll First off, I hope to god / goddess/whatever that you don’t actually believe that rolling dice is a valid way of managing one’s life.

Why not, beats the crap out of many of the alternative management ideas we see around us in the world today, at least a die roll is not selling an unattainable goal or some such .. Smile
Hans Jagerblitzen wrote:
...Some just want to extend their role play into the forums – that’s totally fine too, but there’s a separate forum for that, it has nothing to do with the CSM.

Hate to say it luv, but neither is this a place for CSM. This is Warfare&Tactics, the COAD for the unaligned if you will. My roleplay is MORE at home here than anything CSM related .. just sayin' Smile

Either way, CCP stopped reading FW threads that does not call them out on blatant blunders ages ago .. so wouldn't worry about them not reading this. If they did read them then surely we would have had some indication that they were even aware they launched this thing called Factional Warfare .. and it has been almost three years with nary a mention of anything FW related except for a few bugs they managed to create when fixing something else entirely.
This latest "fix" is about as positive that proof can get that they have no clue about FW and stopped reading a long time ago as it does nothing to actually promote the war or foster the ever elusive "Good Fight" .. just the fact they have openly said that FW will now be used specifically as a testbed for future null changes ..

PS: RP in FW context now reflects badly on the community as a whole, does it? *insert image of octo-facedesk* What?
X Gallentius
Black Eagle5
Villore Accords
#733 - 2012-05-15 17:23:00 UTC
Cearain wrote:


However when ccp implements mechanics that promote blobbing that is a problem. For example no one being able to dock will severely limit the number of different systems the losing side can hit at at the same time. (thereby splitting up the blob) Hence the effectiveness of having a blob is amplified. This is the sort of pro null sec mechanic that is a big part of the new system. Do you think limitting where people can base out of hurts blobbing?

This and other reasons how this will lead to more blob warfare have been explained, so I won't go through them again - unless you missed them.


There will always be small gang fights off the main pipes. If you're after small fights, then roam away from the front lines and the home systems of various FW alliances/corps. Make a base in a non-FW system that's close to the action:
Gallente/Caldari low sec for Minmatar/Amarr theater. Gallente low sec or even Syndicate for Gallente space. Mara/Karja for Caldari space.
Mutnin
SQUIDS.
#734 - 2012-05-15 17:59:49 UTC  |  Edited by: Mutnin
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:


However when ccp implements mechanics that promote blobbing that is a problem. For example no one being able to dock will severely limit the number of different systems the losing side can hit at at the same time. (thereby splitting up the blob) Hence the effectiveness of having a blob is amplified. This is the sort of pro null sec mechanic that is a big part of the new system. Do you think limitting where people can base out of hurts blobbing?

This and other reasons how this will lead to more blob warfare have been explained, so I won't go through them again - unless you missed them.


There will always be small gang fights off the main pipes. If you're after small fights, then roam away from the front lines and the home systems of various FW alliances/corps. Make a base in a non-FW system that's close to the action:
Gallente/Caldari low sec for Minmatar/Amarr theater. Gallente low sec or even Syndicate for Gallente space. Mara/Karja for Caldari space.


There really isn't any small gang "fights" in FW.. There is small gank "ganks" and small gangs getting ganked. Sure you can go into a plex to fight 2 or 3 frigs, dessies or cruisers but any sort of small gang "fight" is very few and extremely far between.

Pretending you are doing "small gang" when it's 3 or 4 guys on a KM but 30 in local on your side to come to your beck and call soon as you know you will get beat is not small gang fighting. Blink

There is zero opportunity for getting these so called small gang fights out of Gal Militia, because you guys rarely if ever go out side of your easy blob zones where back up is 1 jump away. Anytime a corp like mine for example takes out 8 to 10 BC's the moment we show up on radar is the only time you guys ever come into the back systems and then it's only with 2 times what we could possibly fight.

This leaves us with ganking random targets of opportunity and not being able to give any better fight than what you guys end up giving us. I did get a kick the other night when we killed a Gal BC on a plex gate that had pretty much equal numbers to us with him but they all ran then accused us of blobbing. Oops
Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#735 - 2012-05-15 18:08:56 UTC
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:


However when ccp implements mechanics that promote blobbing that is a problem. For example no one being able to dock will severely limit the number of different systems the losing side can hit at at the same time. (thereby splitting up the blob) Hence the effectiveness of having a blob is amplified. This is the sort of pro null sec mechanic that is a big part of the new system. Do you think limitting where people can base out of hurts blobbing?

This and other reasons how this will lead to more blob warfare have been explained, so I won't go through them again - unless you missed them.


There will always be small gang fights off the main pipes. If you're after small fights, then roam away from the front lines and the home systems of various FW alliances/corps. Make a base in a non-FW system that's close to the action:
Gallente/Caldari low sec for Minmatar/Amarr theater. Gallente low sec or even Syndicate for Gallente space. Mara/Karja for Caldari space.



Its not a matter of can or can't find small gang pvp. Its a matter of whether this makes it easier or harder to find. Not having ships in the war zone to ship up or down in, makes it harder.

Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Cearain
Plus 10 NV
It Burns When I'm PvPing
#736 - 2012-05-15 18:14:32 UTC
Mutnin wrote:
X Gallentius wrote:
Cearain wrote:


However when ccp implements mechanics that promote blobbing that is a problem. For example no one being able to dock will severely limit the number of different systems the losing side can hit at at the same time. (thereby splitting up the blob) Hence the effectiveness of having a blob is amplified. This is the sort of pro null sec mechanic that is a big part of the new system. Do you think limitting where people can base out of hurts blobbing?

This and other reasons how this will lead to more blob warfare have been explained, so I won't go through them again - unless you missed them.


There will always be small gang fights off the main pipes. If you're after small fights, then roam away from the front lines and the home systems of various FW alliances/corps. Make a base in a non-FW system that's close to the action:
Gallente/Caldari low sec for Minmatar/Amarr theater. Gallente low sec or even Syndicate for Gallente space. Mara/Karja for Caldari space.


There really isn't any small gang "fights" in FW.. There is small gank "ganks" and small gangs getting ganked. Sure you can go into a plex to fight 2 or 3 frigs, dessies or cruisers but any sort of small gang "fight" is very few and extremely far between.

Pretending you are doing "small gang" when it's 3 or 4 guys on a KM but 30 in local on your side to come to your beck and call soon as you know you will get beat is not small gang fighting. Blink

There is zero opportunity for getting these so called small gang fights out of Gal Militia, because you guys rarely if ever go out side of your easy blob zones where back up is 1 jump away. Anytime a corp like mine for example takes out 8 to 10 BC's the moment we show up on radar is the only time you guys ever come into the back systems and then it's only with 2 times what we could possibly fight.

This leaves us with ganking random targets of opportunity and not being able to give any better fight than what you guys end up giving us. I did get a kick the other night when we killed a Gal BC on a plex gate that had pretty much equal numbers to us with him but they all ran then accused us of blobbing. Oops



Once you increase the numbers in your fleet above what would give a single battleship a good fight the chances of finding another fleet that is comparable gets less likely. That is why IMO solo is best way to get frequent good fights.


Make faction war occupancy pvp instead of pve https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=53815&#post53815

Veshta Yoshida
PIE Inc.
Praetoria Imperialis Excubitoris
#737 - 2012-05-15 18:15:25 UTC
By the way, give input in the official Soon™ threads"

FW: rebalancing NPCs and you.

FW: I-hub and system upgrades
Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#738 - 2012-05-15 18:25:48 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:

PS: RP in FW context now reflects badly on the community as a whole, does it? *insert image of octo-facedesk* What?


No, you're taking what I said out of context. Obviously I have no issue with role play in Faction Warfare, I'm specifically referring to the mixing of role play with complaints directed at either CCP or the CSM regarding changes game mechanics. CCP does not care who's winning or losing the war, I'm saying players who want to be relevant when it comes to providing effective feedback on an issue need to be able to know when to separate one from the other.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Hans Jagerblitzen
Ice Fire Warriors
#739 - 2012-05-15 19:38:19 UTC
Veshta Yoshida wrote:
By the way, give input in the official Soon™ threads"

FW: rebalancing NPCs and you.

FW: I-hub and system upgrades


Yes, thanks for reminding everyone Veshta! This is a *GREAT* place to be putting concrete feedback about what you guys want to see, and I'm glad that both the NPC rebalancing project is "out of the closet" as well as the fact that the developers are proving that they're more than willing to tweak the system as needed, including addressing full lockout if need be.

CPM0 Chairman / CSM7 Vice Secretary

Andiedeath
Konvict Cartel
Solyaris Chtonium
#740 - 2012-05-16 05:16:52 UTC
Hidden Snake wrote:
Mike Whiite wrote:
It will draw new FW players, it already does, sadly old FW players are leaving.

my self included, these changes make FW a full time job, untill now I ran a couple of PI stations did some anomalies and then joined up with a fleet to run plexes.

I considered the different disaplines a fun mix, current changes make that all but impossible.

I'll probably be back after I'f trained an alt on this account so I can keep my income.

Sure changes give you LP, though most of that need a s^&t load of tags and Plexes are almost never salvaged, new system will make that even harder.So jack casual still needs a side income, which will be very hard after the patch, unless you want to run FW missions.

Untill later FW Friends and Enemies



I am afraid new people are not comming ... only attention of some "roll over them for lulz" alliance.




LOLs! I'm getting 20+ convos per week (for the last 3 weeks) about joining Militia... I would suggest to start recruiting... ;)

Director

Sefem Velox

INGAME CHANNEL: Sefem Public