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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Battleships and newbs.

Author
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#21 - 2012-01-16 16:08:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Iris Bravemount
Max Von Sydow wrote:
How about updating the fitting window so that it can identify bad fits and warn the player about it. Like if they guy are mixing weapons, tank etc, then they get some orange warning symbol in the fitting window telling them that they are morons (in a nice way) and tell them what the problems are.


I like the idea, but some fits could seem ******** to the script while they actually aren't (projectile weapons on amarr ships for instance).

@Nestara

The pirate ships could only have relevant weapon certificates as prereqs. I wasn't thinking of using the prereqs for the BS skills, but for the BSs themselves.

Lvl 4 missions can be run in a BC with decent skills, much easier than in a BS with crappy skills btw.

I don't want to make things harder for noobs. i want to make things easier for them by preventing them from blindly rushing to BSs without appropriate skills, loose their BS and end up broke.

And while some griefers may find it funny to blow up noobs in expansive ships, it IS a real problem for it can make them quit the game.

Edit : Wow, I didn't think that reta***d would be filtered out...

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#22 - 2012-01-16 16:12:24 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
Max Von Sydow wrote:
How about updating the fitting window so that it can identify bad fits and warn the player about it. Like if they guy are mixing weapons, tank etc, then they get some orange warning symbol in the fitting window telling them that they are morons (in a nice way) and tell them what the problems are.


I like the idea, but some fits could seem ******** to the script while they actually aren't (projectile weapons on amarr ships for instance).

@Nestara

The pirate ships could only have relevant weapon certificates as prereqs. I wasn't thinking of using the prereqs for the BS skills, but for the BSs themselves.

Lvl 4 missions can be run in a BC with decent skills, much easier than in a BS with crappy skills btw.

I don't want to make things harder for noobs. i want to make things easier for them by preventing them from blindly rushing to BSs without appropriate skills, loose their BS and end up broke.

And while some griefers may find it funny to blow up noobs in expansive ships, it IS a real problem for it can make them quit the game.


Its not true. Everybody with BS skill can get into a Raven or Domi and run L4s with zero danger given the proper fit. What fit is necessary to run them in a Myrmidon, for example, with same level of safety?
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#23 - 2012-01-16 16:27:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Iris Bravemount
Nestara Aldent wrote:

Its not true. Everybody with BS skill can get into a Raven or Domi and run L4s with zero danger given the proper fit. What fit is necessary to run them in a Myrmidon, for example, with same level of safety?


High

t1 guns (based on preference you can use hybrids or ACs)

Med

t1 AB
t1 Webber (short range) or TP (rails)
t2 Cap rechargers in the remaining slots

Low

t2 Med Armor Repper x2
4 mission specific hardeners (or 3 and a damage mod if you feel like it)

rigs

MCCx3

Drones

t2 Med drones


This worked fine for me. Not very fast, bcs of relatively low dps, but you don't get killed and it's still more profitable than L3 missions.

This seems a bit off topic though...

PS : I used this a few months ago. With capacitor related skills improving, you can get an even better fit of course, but this is what I'd consider the minimum.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#24 - 2012-01-16 16:48:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
What about missions like The Blockade? Your tank will be insufficient if you get webbed because BS will tank twice the DPS that setup can. Sorry but that BC fit don't have the tank of usual BS L4 fit. Also, what about L4 missions where more than two hardeners are needed?

And your DPS will suck and even if you can break the tank of elite BS rat, it will take ages to bring it down.

And wait, its just because you see the problem of newbies getting ganked in a BS, that none else sees, and your solution creates more problems than it solves.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#25 - 2012-01-16 23:43:19 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
...
The problem is that what you propose wouldn't prevent our dear noob from training straight to Med Weapon Spec 1, without any support skills (not even gunnery support skills) and then jump into his BS. ...


Nothing thus far as I know uses certificates. I don't have many of them because I mix races, such as Gallente Industrial and Minmatar war ships.

Medium Autocannon Specialisation I requirements.
- Motion Prediction IV
- Gunnery
- Small Auto Cannon Specialisation
- and ... darn it. I didn't look at it closely enough.

Okay, changing the OP.
Nestara Aldent wrote:
...
In all your care about those newbies you'd achieve only to prevent them to get easily into pirate BS for running incursions, and if your proposal gets by some miracle into the game, these same newbies will rage because of it. ...


Unless they are buying their way into those ships with real money then it won't happen any time soon. If they are buying into ships, they might as well buy a character.
Max Von Sydow wrote:
... then they get some orange warning symbol in the fitting window telling them that they are morons ... and tell them what the problems are.

Personally I think that would be too much hand holding and limit them to cookie cutter fits.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#26 - 2012-01-17 00:23:24 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
What about missions like The Blockade? Your tank will be insufficient if you get webbed because BS will tank twice the DPS that setup can. Sorry but that BC fit don't have the tank of usual BS L4 fit. Also, what about L4 missions where more than two hardeners are needed?

And your DPS will suck and even if you can break the tank of elite BS rat, it will take ages to bring it down.

And wait, its just because you see the problem of newbies getting ganked in a BS, that none else sees, and your solution creates more problems than it solves.


True, I couldn't do some missions, and some required hardener changes between rooms. But it was nonetheless feasable. Believe it or not.

And no, I'm not the only one seeing a problem with noobs getting blown up in expensive ship.

[spoiler] I didn't start this thread. [/spoiler]

My solution doesn't create any problems. It merely keeps noobs from making bad decisions, which in turn avoids ragequits. Don't tell me that you advocate running incursions without the most basic support skills as long as one is sitting in a BS. I expect much better from an EvE University member.

Quote:
Unless they are buying their way into those ships with real money then it won't happen any time soon. If they are buying into ships, they might as well buy a character.


I agree.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Jenshae Chiroptera
#27 - 2012-01-17 00:25:49 UTC
Iris Bravemount wrote:
... I agree.


OP updated with an example of skill requirements. Nothing too arduous but enough for enquiring minds to wonder why they are needed. Smile

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Nikk Narrel
Moonlit Bonsai
#28 - 2012-01-17 02:30:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Nikk Narrel
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Iris Bravemount wrote:
... I agree.


OP updated with an example of skill requirements. Nothing too arduous but enough for enquiring minds to wonder why they are needed. Smile


The problem they have is based on lack of experience.

Create a helper window that let's them perform test fits on various ships. Let it show automated expectations about default fights against different NPC's.

IE: The rogue drones would destroy this ship in 3:30, consider a more sustainable tank, or guns with a higher DPS.

Put in a pull down menu to select a mission level, and another for NPC type.

(Yes, I know EFT and other programs do similar things, but if they already knew about those, they would not be in this position of flying horrible fits doomed to grief)
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#29 - 2012-01-17 02:58:31 UTC
Unless you set all the sensible skills as absolute, mechanics-enforced prerequisites, doing it through skills won't help a bit — they'll just rush through the new prereqs and be, in anything, even less prepared for what's coming (since they've wasted all that time on some silly high prereq rather than on building up a solid broad baseline of skills).

What you're talking about is an education problem — not a mechanics problem. It cannot be solved mechanically without some down-right ridiculous restrictions that will only serve to **** off anyone who isn't in the absolute-first-char-and-absolutely-no-clue stage of their EVE life. And even then, the result is questionable: newbies with a brain will just be annoyed that they aren't allowed to think for themselves; newbies without a brain will still not take the time to learn how to fit a ship properly, will still die, and will still quit (now with even more of a rage: “I spent all this time on this crap and it dies to four frigates?! WTF!!”).

The best you can do (aside from other players giving proper advice to newbies in the n00bcorps) is probably to throw even more Aura in there — delayed lectures that are account-time limited (much like newbie help chat) that triggers the first time you try to buy any kind of slightly advanced skill, and which points out the cert recommendations and how they exist for a reason.
Raina Raimo
Viziam
Amarr Empire
#30 - 2012-01-17 23:24:42 UTC
I cant really blame them. A lot of the new players have a hard time finding what to do and they migh find that instead of levels, you buy ships and buy better ships. So they just try to rush and grind the money for better ships. Someone should tell them to stop and that the point of the game is to.. Is to.. **** i dont even know myself what the point of the game is. Put a pvp fit to a rifter and go explore 0.0? That is my current project at least, no idea if it is wise.
E man Industries
SeaChell Productions
#31 - 2012-01-17 23:38:07 UTC
I believe ships come with recomended certificates.

This should be better explained to new players.

Battle cruisers are amazing.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#32 - 2012-01-19 00:30:36 UTC
Tippia wrote:
What you're talking about is an education problem

The best you can do (aside from other players giving proper advice to newbies in the n00bcorps) is probably to throw even more Aura in there — delayed lectures that are account-time limited (much like newbie help chat) that triggers the first time you try to buy any kind of slightly advanced skill, and which points out the cert recommendations and how they exist for a reason.


Very true.

Maybe adding warnings like :

"You barely meet the prereqs for this ship. The certificates recommended for flying this ship are :
*list of certificates*
Are you sure you want to buy it/make it active/undock in it ?"

... without adding prereqs. But maybe adding more core certificates to various ships' recommendations.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Akatenshi Xi
Elite Shadow Society
ESS Empire
#33 - 2012-01-19 01:21:47 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I said some random crap I didn't think through clearly enough... Sorry guys. Gold Plox!



No. It is not CCP's fault you or anyone else is too ******** to fly what they can't fit properly or know how to use. There are TOO many avenues for help in game and on the web.
Sashi Serakhoi
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#34 - 2012-01-19 16:12:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Sashi Serakhoi
I think this is a meritorious thread and I applaud the OP for it. I tend to agree, game design that promotes tremendous frustration and loss in new players is not optimum game design. I've seen it myself with my buddies in the game, and not merely with BS, with lower ship classes too.

While it is most true of the most expensive ships, it is also true by degrees of cruisers and battlecruisers and even other ships such as higher-tier haulers.

And those falling prey are not all "muppets." It is hard for new comers to EVE, even RL middle-aged professionals wizened by the crucibles of real life work place politics and relationships, to appreciate just how cut throat EVE really is, and just how risky certain foolish actions are. Until you get popped doing something stupid, it is difficult to realize just how stupid it was.

Having said all of that, to basically state agreement with the OP a number of broader issues arise in my mind.

1. I suspect CCP knows pretty well where their bread is buttered, and I suspect that it is mostly buttered by players in the 4month to 4 year age range who live in nullsec. That could be wrong, but all that I have learned about the game so far suggests to me that that is the case. Null sec is the 'gold standard' of PVP and many new players aspire to be there. LOTS of destruction happens there, and I imagine lots of plex and multi-accounts are sold to players who operate there.

2. I suspect that CCP regards the Destruction of assets is the single most important part of its revenue stream. After all, when a typical player suffers a loss, he/she is (all else being equal) more likely to need ISK and if they are as impatient and impetuous as most seem to be, that would increase the likelihood they buy a Plex. It is slow and tedious and a long haul to make true riches in game, but plenty of ISK are always just one secure transaction screen away. None of this is meant to be critical fo CCP, they are smart business people and I applaud their accumen.

3. Based on these two points, it may well be that a constant flow of new players who are foolish enough to get themelves into a ship class they are too 'young' to fly is in fact, exactly what CCPs design strategy is intended to foster. Indeed, when I look at various aspects of game design, this is precisely the tentative conclusion I reach. CCP WANTS noobs to rush into higher ship classes without training the skills and gaining the experience to fly them comptetently.

Again, I'm not saying this to be critical of CCP, they are smart business people.

So, I think the real solution here is as follows: take noobs under your wing. Instruct them, inculcate a patient vision to undertake the longhaul to epic glory. At present, I would not say that this ethos of social interaction is 'the norm' in the EVE community. Certainly there are some VERY helpful, nice and friendly players, but in general, disdain, indifference if not cruelty are the norms.

As some other earlier postrs pointed out: a change to the ship pre-requisits or the ship durability etc., would probably only create some alternative 'problem.'

If you really care about growing the community, and helping to prevent foolish noobs suffering heinous losses and rage quitting, I suggest a focus on the social aspects of the game. Changing game mechanics is not likely to work nearly as well as fostering noobs. Even if only 50% of 'experienced' players took just one "noob" under their wing every six months, I suspect it would make a difference.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#35 - 2012-02-15 12:44:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Sashi Serakhoi wrote:
...
If you really care about growing the community, and helping to prevent foolish noobs suffering heinous losses and rage quitting, I suggest a focus on the social aspects of the game. ...


New players > people who care.

Game seems to be stacked in the favour of gankers and gratuitous destruction. I suspect that people like the way things are because it gives them more easy victims and battleship kills for their precious kill board. Roll

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Di Mulle
#36 - 2012-02-15 12:56:49 UTC
Sashi Serakhoi wrote:
As some other earlier postrs pointed out: a change to the ship pre-requisits or the ship durability etc., would probably only create some alternative 'problem.'



Indeed. OP is falling into a classical trap of curing a symptome rather than illness.
<<Insert some waste of screen space here>>
Yumi Sagara
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#37 - 2012-02-15 13:05:25 UTC
Di Mulle wrote:
Sashi Serakhoi wrote:
As some other earlier postrs pointed out: a change to the ship pre-requisits or the ship durability etc., would probably only create some alternative 'problem.'



Indeed. OP is falling into a classical trap of curing a symptome rather than illness.


Any noob that comes here as a sci-fi fan is likely to fall into this trap. I did it myself when I first started- my goal was to get into a Hyperion ASAP.

In MOST sci-fi (not all, but a good bit), the bigger the ship the better. So when they see a battleship, being the last real step to capitals, it seems like the most obvious goal to reach for. There REALLY needs to be more information available to new players that stresses just how unimportant the battleship can be in this game, and that one can be ripped apart by a smaller ship due to mechanics like tracking and speed. Once newbs started to realize that smaller is better, you'd see less rage quitting overall.
Buzzy Warstl
Quantum Flux Foundry
#38 - 2012-02-15 15:03:42 UTC
There is a tab in info for Recommended Certificates.

Just put a red highlight around the fitting window if the character doesn't have all the recommendations.

You can't force people to not be stupid, but you can let the ones who aren't violently stupid have a last chance to think before getting themselves blown up.

http://www.mud.co.uk/richard/hcds.htm Richard Bartle: Players who suit MUDs

Jenshae Chiroptera
#39 - 2012-02-15 15:08:26 UTC
Buzzy Warstl wrote:
Just put a red highlight around the fitting window if the character doesn't have all the recommendations.


Something like this could be helpful. A warning of sorts. I mentioned changing something in the description originally, maybe an indicator such as:

Weaknesses

- slow moving
- trouble targeting smaller craft.
- larger target.

and / or some hints

Drones are an effective part of running a good battleship.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Buzzmong
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#40 - 2012-02-15 16:20:30 UTC
You know, when CCP removed the Learning Skills, there was one stand out issue they never addressed:

They were excellent poo filters/buffers.

Simply because they forced people to wait and learn patience before going off into the wider world of EVE. Anyone who couldn't handle flying around with basically no skills (well before they added the 3rd bloodline) never progressed past the first month as they'd quit. Even after they added higher starting skills and stats, the skills still presented a good filter.

Hence the reason now you seen people jumping into BS's as soon as they can without understanding them or really having the skills for them.

I recently took part in a NPC corp chat with a couple of month old player who was trying to fit not only multiple types of size guns to a dominix for level 2's, but also fitting both armour and shield tanks, while also attempting to both go active and buffer. Madness.