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Battleships and newbs.

Author
Jenshae Chiroptera
#1 - 2012-01-15 22:15:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenshae Chiroptera
Please add something to the description of battleships or add requirements to fly them, such as medium turret type V.

I have seen so many newbies getting ganked in their badly fit battleships then rage quitting it isn't even funny. It is just too easy for them to get into them with minimal skills and they spend too much ISK on them for their level.

As it stands this is
- bad for players because there are less for us to play with.
- bad for CCP because they are losing subscribers over such a small possible change.

Brand new character with no implants, no re-maps, nothing can get into a battleship in 8 days and 3 hours. They get the skill, they save up, they buy the ship and they lose it.

Please append requirements as with this example:

Minmatar Battleship
Primary Skill required
Battlecruisers IV
- Space ship command IV

Secondary Skill required
Minmatar Cruiser IV
- Spaceship Command III
- Minmatar Frigate IV
-- Spaceship Command I

Tertiary Skill required
Medium Projectile Turret
-Trajectory Analysis III
-- Gunnery IV
- Small Projectile Turret III
-- Gunnery I
- Motion Prediction III
-- Gunnery II
- Combat Drone Operation III
-- Drones III

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Goose99
#2 - 2012-01-15 22:16:47 UTC
Make BS harder to gank instead.Cool
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba
Crunchy Crunchy
#3 - 2012-01-15 22:48:35 UTC
If they didn't quit then they would just quit slightly later on, muppets are muppets regardless.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#4 - 2012-01-15 23:40:47 UTC
FlinchingNinja Kishunuba wrote:
If they didn't quit then they would just quit slightly later on, muppets are muppets regardless.


Further on they don't have stars in their eyes and aren't so full of dreams. At the point I am talking about, they are investing all they have done, all they hope and all their ISK into one egg basket.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Simi Kusoni
HelloKittyFanclub
#5 - 2012-01-15 23:46:47 UTC  |  Edited by: Simi Kusoni
Goose99 wrote:
Make BS harder to gank instead.Cool
1) Make BS harder to bank by buffing BS.
2) Gankers start using more battleships.

EDIT: Forgot to say I support this post :D the number of times I see horrific fits with full meta4 or deadspace items is horrendous. Losing those things must seriously make some new players want to rage quit. Keep them in battlecruisers etc. until they're ready, it'll cost them less and they'll perform better in them with low SP.

[center]"I don't troll, I just give overly blunt responses that annoy people who are wrong but don't want to admit it. It's not my fault that people have sensitive feelings"  -MXZF[/center]

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#6 - 2012-01-16 11:30:29 UTC
I believe tier 3 BCs are just about the right compromise.

I have been avoiding Battleships ever since I started playing eve less than a year ago, because of the price tag, the skill requirements and the risk of losing them.

Recently, I bought a Talos and fitted it for ratting purposes, and I think it is quite instructive about how to handle large guns, while still allowing some safety thanks to the speed and agility of the ship. This first approach to the bigger guns has changed my mind about BSs, and I now plan on skilling for and buying a Megathron.

The pricetag is roughly the same as for tier 1 BSs, true, but you can try them out with only large gun skills added to your BC skills, which is less frustrating of a skillplan.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#7 - 2012-01-16 11:50:44 UTC
There are a lot of game mechanics (missions and other PVE specifically) that actually do tell newbies to go up in ship class as fast as they can.

How about we just reform that?
Jenshae Chiroptera
#8 - 2012-01-16 13:03:18 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
... that actually do tell newbies to go up in ship class as fast as they can. ...


Never noticed that myself but maybe it depends on the missions, which I don't do many of as it is.

As for Tier 3 battle cruisers, I think they will and should have a nerf to tracking, tracking enhancers, tracking computers and webs. Besides which, Tier 1 and 2 battle cruisers can do L4 missions and they have more active tank.
Tier 3 also doesn't stop players skipping battle cruisers to go straight for the battle ships. Cruiser III I think is the requirement?

Should be Cruiser IV, Battle Cruiser IV and Medium turrets V

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Kahega Amielden
Rifterlings
#9 - 2012-01-16 13:32:25 UTC
Quote:
Never noticed that myself but maybe it depends on the missions, which I don't do many of as it is.


In order to make any real amount of money in missions you need to run level 4s...which are best done in battleships.
Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#10 - 2012-01-16 13:32:32 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
[quote=Kahega Amielden]

Should be Cruiser IV, Battle Cruiser IV and Medium turrets V


Medium turrets V is an awfully long skill for a new player. Plus it doesn't help the noob flying his BS in any way.

How about the core competency certificates ? Have the standard version be a prereq for battleships sounds like a more reasonable solution. It's even longer than Medium Turrets V, that's true, but at least it helps the noob with balancing his skillplan.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Jenshae Chiroptera
#11 - 2012-01-16 13:42:41 UTC
Kahega Amielden wrote:
... In order to make any real amount of money in missions you need to run level 4s...which are best done in battleships.

... groups with T2 fits and a dedicated salvager.
Iris Bravemount wrote:
... Medium turrets V is an awfully long skill for a new player. Plus it doesn't help the noob flying his BS in any way. ...


The Medium V skills make for a really good battle cruiser and have a lot of supporting skills that will de-n00b the guns on a battleship somewhat.

Certificates are odd but possible I guess.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#12 - 2012-01-16 14:38:27 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:

The Medium V skills make for a really good battle cruiser and have a lot of supporting skills that will de-n00b the guns on a battleship somewhat.

Certificates are odd but possible I guess.


Medium V only leads to tech 2 skills. How good that is for BC pilots isn't what matters here IMHO. What matters is that noobs don't fly BSs without the appropriate set of skills, so core competency standard comes in handy. While we are at it, core competency basic could be a prereq for BCs.

Noobs don't need help to understand that you need your weapons skill, but they need it to understand the importance of support skills. And I speak of experience here. I was sitting in a Myrmidon before I even realized the potential of my Vexor and then I wondered why my BC was so weak. It's only after extensive explanations from online tutorials and corp mates that I understood how things work.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#13 - 2012-01-16 14:59:30 UTC
Prerequisites are fine, and upping them isn't the way to prevent people from doing stupid, silly things.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#14 - 2012-01-16 15:01:16 UTC
I was trying to be general and it would only be level 1 of the specialisations but they can make a case function for it:

MgunsT2 = boolean

Set MgunsT2 =
Case MgunsT2()
when Autocannons Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true
when Artillery Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true
when Blasters Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true
when Railguns Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true
when Beams Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true
// et cetera copy paste and edit
End;

IF MgunsT2 = TRUE AND Cruisers IV = TRUE AND Battle cruisers IV = TRUE THEN Battleships = TRUE

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#15 - 2012-01-16 15:02:42 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
Prerequisites are fine, and upping them isn't the way to prevent people from doing stupid, silly things.


That's true, but they can still be a good guideline. If you force people to up their support skills before even can get into BSs, they will realize all by themselves how much they help them.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#16 - 2012-01-16 15:07:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
I was trying to be general and it would only be level 1 of the specialisations but they can make a case function for it:

MgunsT2 = boolean

Set MgunsT2 =
Case MgunsT2()
when Autocannons Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true
when Artillery Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true
when Blasters Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true
when Railguns Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true
when Beams Specialization = true then MgunsT2 = true
// et cetera copy paste and edit
End;

IF MgunsT2 = TRUE AND Cruisers IV = TRUE AND Battle cruisers IV = TRUE THEN Battleships = TRUE


Why T2 medium guns should be a prerequisite for a battleship? Do you plan to put undersized guns on it? And why BC to IV should be a prerequisite, as well? That adds unrelated BC training to a BS.

You can't see how much your proposal DON'T make sense? For example here in E-UNI we advise training to a BC and BS to be a priority because newbie will be able to join an incursion fleet and his ISK problems will be gone. Do you realize your proposal wont help that but hinder it?
Jenshae Chiroptera
#17 - 2012-01-16 15:24:25 UTC
Nestara Aldent wrote:
...Why T2 medium guns should be a prerequisite for a battleship? Why BC to IV should be a prerequisite, as well? ...


Medium guns T2 + BC IV is a good stepping stone before training a battleship and it gives me a good idea of what a battle cruiser can do. Requirements for T2 mediums are the same support skills that Large guns need; ergo T1 Large would at least have support skills.

I am trying to look at some other skills that the support gunnery and missile ones can be put under.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Iris Bravemount
Golden Grinding Gears
#18 - 2012-01-16 15:41:21 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:


Medium guns T2 + BC IV is a good stepping stone before training a battleship and it gives me a good idea of what a battle cruiser can do. Requirements for T2 mediums are the same support skills that Large guns need; ergo T1 Large would at least have support skills.

I am trying to look at some other skills that the support gunnery and missile ones can be put under.



The problem is that what you propose wouldn't prevent our dear noob from training straight to Med Weapon Spec 1, without any support skills (not even gunnery support skills) and then jump into his BS. It wouldn't fix anything and only add a bit more futile training time.

By using certificates as prereqs, he gets a whole set of skills that will actually help him with his BS.

"I will not hesitate when the test of Faith finds me, for only the strongest conviction will open the gates of paradise. My Faith in you is absolute; my sword is Yours, My God, and Your will guides me now and for all eternity." - Paladin's Creed

Nestara Aldent
Citimatics
#19 - 2012-01-16 15:42:33 UTC  |  Edited by: Nestara Aldent
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
Nestara Aldent wrote:
...Why T2 medium guns should be a prerequisite for a battleship? Why BC to IV should be a prerequisite, as well? ...


Medium guns T2 + BC IV is a good stepping stone before training a battleship and it gives me a good idea of what a battle cruiser can do. Requirements for T2 mediums are the same support skills that Large guns need; ergo T1 Large would at least have support skills.

I am trying to look at some other skills that the support gunnery and missile ones can be put under.



No.

How about pirate battleships, you'll have to need two medium T2 gun or missile skill to fly them? Why? Just because _you_ perceive ganking of newbies in battleships to be a problem. But there isn't such a problem at all.

In all your care about those newbies you'd achieve only to prevent them to get easily into pirate BS for running incursions, and if your proposal gets by some miracle into the game, these same newbies will rage because of it.

@iris

They'd get blown up in some other ships instead of battleships. You really want to make running incursions and L4 missions harder for these newbies, dont you?
Max Von Sydow
24th Imperial Crusade
Amarr Empire
#20 - 2012-01-16 15:57:33 UTC
How about updating the fitting window so that it can identify bad fits and warn the player about it. Like if they guy are mixing weapons, tank etc, then they get some orange warning symbol in the fitting window telling them that they are morons (in a nice way) and tell them what the problems are.
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