These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Battleships and newbs.

Author
Jenshae Chiroptera
#41 - 2012-02-15 16:27:29 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
...
I recently took part in a NPC corp chat with a couple of month old player who was trying to fit not only multiple types of size guns to a dominix for level 2's, but also fitting both armour and shield tanks, while also attempting to both go active and buffer. Madness.


I can empathise. Recently had a new player that was determined that a Tornado was the best ship they could fly in PVE because it was fast and had large guns. Big smile

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Xolve
State War Academy
Caldari State
#42 - 2012-02-15 18:24:18 UTC
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
New players > people who care.

Game seems to be stacked in the favour of gankers and gratuitous destruction. I suspect that people like the way things are because it gives them more easy victims and battleship kills for their precious kill board. Roll


Welcome to this Competitive MMO PvP Game, EvE: Online.

Everyone makes mistakes in the beginning, everyone loses ships one way or another in the beginning, learning the game mechanics is a vital portion of this game. BattleClinic still has a 400 page guide on basic fittings and number crunching "how stuff works"; obviously this game has a natural built in buffer for people that read up on the game as opposed to those that just jump in and wing it.

The newbie experience now is far easier then it ever was when I started, it practially rains free ships, skills and ISK in the Tutorials, and with an Epic Arc that anyone with 3 brain cells to rub together for ISK every few months, what more could you ask for?

OP I think you are greatly under-estimating the amount of 'stupid' in Empire space. If a 2 month old character rage quits after losing his 200m ISK fitted battleship, whats he going to do when he loses a HAC, Recon, T3 or Logi ship? I'm sure there are tons of people that love EvE Online's 'difficulty' factor and are 100% averse to World of Spaceships.
Jenshae Chiroptera
#43 - 2012-02-15 18:29:03 UTC
My problem is that they can get into a battleship too quickly.

CCP - Building ant hills and magnifying glasses for fat kids

Not even once

EVE is becoming shallow and puerile; it will satisfy neither the veteran nor the "WoW" type crowd in the transition.

Velicitia
XS Tech
#44 - 2012-02-15 19:24:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Velicitia
Jenshae Chiroptera wrote:
My problem is that they can get into a battleship too quickly.


seems this is the crux of the issue.

HOWEVER it's more that they think power-leveling into said big ship (bigger is better, and all) is the way to go about playing eve.

In some sense "bigger is better" -- in that a dessie is better than a frigate, or a BC is better than a cruiser. However, the prevailing fittings on a dessie or BC are all centred around the same ideology as a frig/cruiser (i.e. small weapons/armour reppers/shield boosters/etc).

What this means for a newbie is that their L2/3 skills that worked in a frig WILL work in a dessie (and same for a cruiser/BC). There just needs to be a little help in teaching people "what works in a frig will probably work OK in a dessie, will most likely get you killed in a cruiser or BC ... and absolutely so in a BS".

One of the bitter points of a good bittervet is the realisation that all those SP don't really do much, and that the newbie is having much more fun with what little he has. - Tippia

Xi-Admiral-P6045
Severus Transactions LLC
#45 - 2012-04-10 06:55:28 UTC
For battleships they should add the requirement Gunnery V, because the whole point of flying a battleship is to use large turrets, if you require Gunnery V then when they can finally fly the battleship then they are either 25 minutes to a few hours from using large turrets. That happened to me when I was a noob (on an alt), I got into the battleship then I realized i couldn't use large turrets for another 6 days, and I was like "fffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu" and I got really mad. So Gunnery V should be a requirement for battleships.
GizzyBoy
I N E X T R E M I S
Tactical Narcotics Team
#46 - 2012-04-10 07:57:38 UTC
i still run lvl 3's in my bs cause lazy.

in my day rigs where pretty damn expensive and only came in one size, thats a big plus in fitting and running a smaller ship.
to be honest my hyperion was kinda a dissapointment when i got it.

if they can afford to buy and fit a bs after 8 days, well good luck to them,
not sure how you can 'slow' them down to a more sedate pace by getting them to do other things than mission all day.
i don't know what fleets your flying but i wouldn't be too keen on having an 8 day old player in my incursion fleet.
it takes to much work to keep them alive, and they do bugger all effective dps.
Mike Whiite
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#47 - 2012-04-10 12:26:06 UTC
Xi-Admiral-P6045 wrote:
For battleships they should add the requirement Gunnery V, because the whole point of flying a battleship is to use large turrets, if you require Gunnery V then when they can finally fly the battleship then they are either 25 minutes to a few hours from using large turrets. That happened to me when I was a noob (on an alt), I got into the battleship then I realized i couldn't use large turrets for another 6 days, and I was like "fffuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuu" and I got really mad. So Gunnery V should be a requirement for battleships.


Why Would my Raven need Gunnery 5?



Xolve wrote:
[The newbie experience now is far easier then it ever was when I started, it practially rains free ships, skills and ISK in the Tutorials, and with an Epic Arc that anyone with 3 brain cells to rub together for ISK every few months, what more could you ask for?



My ancectors made fire with 2 peaces of flint, that didn't stop people from inventing a lighter, because their fathers had a hard time as well, nor did it make life very simple.

Someone mentioned here to let the recomended certificate box light up slightly when you lack those, that should be enough, no need to spell it out to people no need to leave them in the dark as well.
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#48 - 2012-04-28 14:43:49 UTC
[Maelstrom, Tikktokk Tokkzikk's Maelstrom]

1400mm Howitzer Artillery I
1200mm Artillery Cannon I
1200mm Artillery Cannon I
'Malkuth' Cruise Launcher I
Cruise Missile Launcher I
Ion Blaster Cannon I
Ion Blaster Cannon I
Ion Blaster Cannon I

Large Shield Extender I
Large Shield Extender I
Cap Recharger I
Cap Recharger I
Large Shield Booster I
Large Shield Booster I

1600mm Reinforced Rolled Tungsten Plates I
Reinforced Bulkheads II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Nanofiber Internal Structure II
Large Armor Repairer I

Large Anti-Thermal Screen Reinforcer I
Large Dynamic Fuel Valve I
Large Remote Repair Augmentor I


Warrior I x5
Hobgoblin I x5
Hobgoblin I x5
Warrior I x5



This is the propper way to fit a battleship.
It hits far away, close up and both armor and shield tank for a super strong tank!







I actually saw a corpmate link a similar real fit in chat once. It was so painful I wanted to poke my eyes out. Cry
Astroniomix
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#49 - 2012-04-28 15:21:41 UTC
E man Industries wrote:
I believe ships come with recomended certificates.

This should be better explained to new players.

Battle cruisers are amazing.

Varg Krugar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#50 - 2012-06-18 18:03:28 UTC
you could just add the Core Competency certificates as requirements to the racial cruiser (basic) and battleship (standard) skills.
Carth Oansi
BlackStar Heavy Industries
#51 - 2012-09-13 01:24:43 UTC
Seriously? This thread is a joke.

-Weapon skills dictating ship skills? No sorry, thats what SHIP skills are for. Thats the way it has always been and the way it should stay, no ship requires you to skill in a weapon type nor should it.

-T2 medium guns for a battleship? Why? 5-6 more weeks of training isn't going to make a wink of a difference when that noob takes his megathron into low sec (if wasted on something stupid like T2 medium guns). Way to make them wait longer and try harder for their ship, now they feel worse that they wasted a whole month rather than 7 days. Not to mention, medium guns on a BS is about as noob as it gets. Obviously you dont mean for them to put medium guns on a BS, but this can be misleading to a new player.

-Okay T2 meds for a battleship? Maybe you sold me. So now you say the purpose is so they can fly a battlecruiser well? I thought we were talking about battleships here, not battlecruisers. It will take them longer to train all that extra bull crap up than it would take them to get some weapon/tank specific skills up for a battleship (assuming their core is already okayish). Young BS pilot vs young BC pilot and the BS pilot will kick its ass. Young BS pilot vs two, 1 year old BC pilots (still rather "youngish"), depending on how well the BS has been trained he might kill one of them, but will probably die. Put a young BS pilot vs a 3-4 year old cruiser pilot, and the BS will die in a fire. It's not that BS are easier to fly or better to fly, its the age difference which is intangible. If you take it for what it is and comapre apples to apples, BS beats BC in most cases. (Simply based off of overall DPS and tank)

-Lets NOT create mechanics that make eve a safer place for derps please. If you want to be an idiot go play WoW. If you can't fall on your face in this game (because of something YOU did, most likely), then get back up, eve probably isn't the right game for you.

-Noobs in battleships isn't the problem (as someone said earlier). It's the education level. That being said, it is NOT CCP's job to teach people how to fly a battleship. That should be the job of a friend, corp leader, director, in game organization (E-Uni etc). I have helped plenty of very young players get into a battleship, its probably the BEST ship for a 2-3 month old character in a small to midsize group atmosphere (of course this also depends on what you do, 0.0, wh, highsec, it all will vary). Of course, you need to really help them with their training in skills and practical usage. Most important is that you dont throw them to the wolves. But seriously, think about it. Cruiser or battlecruisers do 200-400/500 DPS for someone who is 2-3 months old. Battleships will do 400-800 (yes I had a megathron pilot get up to 800, not great, but for 2-3 months, not too shabby). The EHP is 100k or more in a BS whereas in a BC you'll be lucky to get more than 50-60k in a solid fit. Sure its more expensive but, again, goes back to being in a group atmosphere where the corp either has industrial friends or their own industrial backbone where they can make ships available and affordable for their members.

Eve is a cut throat game, its got a steep learning curve, and it doesnt cater to stupidity. If a noob has a BS, fine, own it. But be sure you are being smart with it, and unless you've got a friend helping you out, its going to take some losses. Happens to everyone at some point, and if you can't deal with the no respawn, again, WoW is that way. -->
Lilianna Star
Vagrant Empress
#52 - 2012-09-13 04:35:05 UTC
Buzzmong wrote:
You know, when CCP removed the Learning Skills, there was one stand out issue they never addressed:

They were excellent poo filters/buffers.

Simply because they forced people to wait and learn patience before going off into the wider world of EVE. Anyone who couldn't handle flying around with basically no skills (well before they added the 3rd bloodline) never progressed past the first month as they'd quit. Even after they added higher starting skills and stats, the skills still presented a good filter.

Hence the reason now you seen people jumping into BS's as soon as they can without understanding them or really having the skills for them.

I recently took part in a NPC corp chat with a couple of month old player who was trying to fit not only multiple types of size guns to a dominix for level 2's, but also fitting both armour and shield tanks, while also attempting to both go active and buffer. Madness.


No. The learning skills were stupid and they rightfully removed them. They were literally just skills to learn skills and a complete waste of time.

It's good to give players a notable sense of progression at least in the early stages so they can ramp up to the longer skills that take a month to train.
Relient Tolemus
Lazy Town
#53 - 2012-09-13 04:42:13 UTC
There is nothing wrong with the current system. If a new player thinks that battleships are top dog and works to get one as fast as possible, they will lose it. When that 100mil battleship pops they will either learn from the experience or quit. If they learn from the experience they will, move on, and ultimately become better players. If they give up and quit then they probably wouldn't have played EVE very long anyway.

In the end nothing needs to be changed because the best way to learn is not through a bunch of menus and NPC's its through trial and error, "I tried a battleship and got killed maybe I shouldn't be flying one yet".

It's also important to remember that this is a signature.

Shiroh Yatamii
Alexylva Paradox
#54 - 2012-09-13 04:52:35 UTC
Chances are, if the newb in question didn't think to interact with other people and ask if hopping into a battleship right off the bat is a good idea, then they were going to hop into a different ship they shouldn't have been in just yet. EVE is a social game, and if newbies don't ask questions and try to learn, they are forced to learn the hard way. Plenty of us have learned by losing ships. If they ragequit as a result, then perhaps EVE isn't the game for them and they should spend their time doing things they enjoy more. Higher net utility and all.
The Renner
Canadian Operations
#55 - 2012-09-13 06:05:22 UTC
Current system is fine.

If anything just better explain some of the strengths/weaknesses of larger ships in Eve during the tutorials. Perhaps one of them could involve sending the player out in a frigate to orbit a battleship npc and "get under" his guns to help explain the whole tracking thing.

Putting in silly limitations like requiring Unnecessary skills be trained to fly a battleship (T2 medium guns wtf?) wont help new players out.

Bagrat Skalski
Koinuun Kotei
#56 - 2012-09-13 09:13:20 UTC
System is good, new players need helping hand sometimes. I had no idea how to fit battleship, i used small guns on them, combining active and buffer tank, then i found some rules how to fit them.

1. Use only weapon systems that receive bonuses from ship.
2. Don't combine armor and shield tank, don't equip passive and active shield tank on one ship. For active tanks use some modules that give capacitor recharge bonus.
3. Use specific hardeners for specific type of faction in missions.
4. Use small drones on small targets. Pay attention to them.

And with these rules i was able to tank mission npcs even without reading eve survival site.
Dread Pirate Pete
Doomheim
#57 - 2012-09-13 15:37:38 UTC
How about a warning if you undock a ship without the recommended certs? You can turn it of just like lowsec warnings, one warning for each ship size so the noobs get a warning undocking their battleship even if they inactivated the warning after undocking their first cruiser.
HELLBOUNDMAN
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#58 - 2012-09-13 15:50:33 UTC
They can do two things to fix this issue.

1) turrets no longer require training lower level skills.
In other words, they'll be more like missiles and you can directly train the turrets without having to train small and medium first.


2) Ships require you to unlock specific certificates in order to fly them
Certs. like for caldari shield management standard(not sure if that's an actual cert, i'm just winging it and expressing my point)
Gizznitt Malikite
Agony Unleashed
Agony Empire
#59 - 2012-09-13 17:41:56 UTC

Quote:

I have seen so many newbies getting ganked in their badly fit battleships then rage quitting it isn't even funny. It is just too easy for them to get into them with minimal skills and they spend too much ISK on them for their level.


Are you serious??????????

1.) Why exactly is a newb in a BS getting ganked? Either they are flying the BS out of highsec; either they flying a BS during a wardec; either they are stupidly shooting at ninja salvagers; or they are fitting a significant amount of bling to their BS's.
-- I do NOT believe the problem with a noob getting ganked in a BS has ANYTHING to do with them "quickly" skilling into the BS!!

2.) The skill tree is changing in the not too distant future to include Dessie IV and BC IV prior to BS.... so you'll get your wish that a pilot will have an extra day or two of training to skill into a BS. But why would you EVER require medium weapon V or what not for flying a BS? There are soooo many relevant skills to flying a BS semi-effectively, and Medium weapon V is NOT one of them.
-- Your skill suggestion is ridiculous, as the suggested skills don't improve your effectiveness in a BS, but just artificially increase the prerequisite training time.

3.) CCP added certificates to each Ship (including BSs), which show the recommended skills a pilot has for properly fitting and flying a ship. These clearly state solid recommendations, and far exceed your arbitrary and irrelevant skill requirements, as they can be ignored or utilized as each pilot sees fit. Certificate recommendations are the appropriate middle ground for guiding a new player on skilling into a ship!
Alphea Abbra
Project Promethion
#60 - 2012-09-13 18:08:14 UTC
Gizznitt Malikite wrote:

Quote:

I have seen so many newbies getting ganked in their badly fit battleships then rage quitting it isn't even funny. It is just too easy for them to get into them with minimal skills and they spend too much ISK on them for their level.


Are you serious??????????

1.) Why exactly is a newb in a BS getting ganked? Either they are flying the BS out of highsec; either they flying a BS during a wardec; either they are stupidly shooting at ninja salvagers; or they are fitting a significant amount of bling to their BS's.
-- I do NOT believe the problem with a noob getting ganked in a BS has ANYTHING to do with them "quickly" skilling into the BS!!

2.) The skill tree is changing in the not too distant future to include Dessie IV and BC IV prior to BS.... so you'll get your wish that a pilot will have an extra day or two of training to skill into a BS. But why would you EVER require medium weapon V or what not for flying a BS? There are soooo many relevant skills to flying a BS semi-effectively, and Medium weapon V is NOT one of them.
-- Your skill suggestion is ridiculous, as the suggested skills don't improve your effectiveness in a BS, but just artificially increase the prerequisite training time.

3.) CCP added certificates to each Ship (including BSs), which show the recommended skills a pilot has for properly fitting and flying a ship. These clearly state solid recommendations, and far exceed your arbitrary and irrelevant skill requirements, as they can be ignored or utilized as each pilot sees fit. Certificate recommendations are the appropriate middle ground for guiding a new player on skilling into a ship!


I like this answer. The only thing I'd add myself is that I would like more focus on "base certificates". I think they could be used as-are for better effect, for example by pointing them out better in the tutorial, by highlighting them in fitting screen or ship show-info, by making modules refer to certificates instead of just ships and a few other things. It would pretty much only be easier accessibility of the information (Apart from tutorial changes).

I could wish for more/"better" certificates, an update to some would be nice as well, but I can do without, and I'd prefer focus on more important areas given choice anyway ...