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Watch Lists in High Sec

Author
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#141 - 2016-12-02 17:30:02 UTC
let's work out a pattern of log in times without knowing when someone logs in.
London Spy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#142 - 2016-12-02 17:31:49 UTC  |  Edited by: London Spy
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
let's work out a pattern of log in times without knowing when someone logs in.


Scout?

The more difficult part of the solution is where. But that is solved with locators and roaming and taking on a contract - of course if you are a genuine merc with more information than none. Otherwise if someone is paying you to go find them that is a different matter. But all the tools are the same.
Xavier Higdon
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#143 - 2016-12-02 17:54:46 UTC
London Spy wrote:


Thats a problem how?

Because then you can work out a pattern of log in times. Seriously, i dont want to teach you how to suck eggs but you need to put work in - thats what you get paid for.


People don't really still pay merc corps, do they? I thought people would have figured out they were just another scam ages ago. I always thought it was smart that they got paid to do what they were gonna do anyway.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#144 - 2016-12-02 17:56:26 UTC
London Spy wrote:

Thats a problem how?


Hour after hour of finding nothing sound fun to you?


London Spy wrote:

Because then you can work out a pattern of log in times.


How? There is no tool to see if they are online and you have 130 to keep tabs on. The system simply does not work in its current form. Mercs have to mass war dec no matter what they do just to get a high enough chance of running into someone and the smaller the merc organisation the more penalized they are.

London Spy wrote:

Seriously, i dont want to teach you how to suck eggs but you need to put work in - thats what you get paid for.


Note the organisation I'm in. Note that I am not asking for watchlists to return.

Watchlists were removed for a very good reeason, they were bullshit for super pilots but their removal screwed over all of the other mercs in the process. I cannot make this any simpler for you to understand, running around looking for 4 guys online out of a 130 man is not fun gameplay, mercs need a way to see if a target is online or not and that can be done simply by having locator agents return a negative result if the target is offline. Its not free intel, it stops people wasting hours chasing things not there and mercs no longer need to blanket wardec every corp they can find for content.
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#145 - 2016-12-02 17:58:52 UTC
London Spy wrote:
Thats a problem how?

Because then you can work out a pattern of log in times. Seriously, i dont want to teach you how to suck eggs but you need to put work in - thats what you get paid for.

I think you are forgetting one basic concept here: EVE is a game. Nobody is going to set up a team of observer(s) on 24 hours shifts for days, sitting in a station to see if War Targets are actually loggin in. Do that in 10-20 systems to cover all of the targeted corp characters. And that is ONE contract.

That's called a job, and a ******, very boring one at that. That would be better done, in RL, remotely, with camera systems and recordings.
London Spy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#146 - 2016-12-02 18:06:32 UTC
Starrakatt wrote:
London Spy wrote:
Thats a problem how?

Because then you can work out a pattern of log in times. Seriously, i dont want to teach you how to suck eggs but you need to put work in - thats what you get paid for.

I think you are forgetting one basic concept here: EVE is a game. Nobody is going to set up a team of observer(s) on 24 hours shifts for days, sitting in a station to see if War Targets are actually loggin in. Do that in 10-20 systems to cover all of the targeted corp characters. And that is ONE contract.

That's called a job, and a ******, very boring one at that. That would be better done, in RL, remotely, with camera systems and recordings.


I don't see this is a problem. Im sure some will leave it logged in so you can camp outside the station for days. Pick a more lucrative target next time. You only get out what you put in, you put in no effort, you get nothing out of it.

You are bitter around game mechanics which have been forever. Which arent even an issue really. Sounds like a whole lot of whining for nothing really. Plenty to shoot in lowsec also if you are bored.
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#147 - 2016-12-02 18:09:30 UTC
Now I know you are just trolling, that or you have really no idea.
London Spy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#148 - 2016-12-02 18:09:58 UTC
Starrakatt wrote:
Now I know you are just trolling, that or you have really no idea.


I'm not trolling, the complainers just seem inherently lazy.
Salvos Rhoska
#149 - 2016-12-02 18:10:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Vimsy Vortis
Shoulda Checked Local
Break-A-Wish Foundation
#150 - 2016-12-02 18:10:38 UTC
The problem is that what you're describing requires dozens of man hours of work just to know if someone is online or not.

That simply isn't either a fun or effective use of time.
London Spy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#151 - 2016-12-02 18:13:43 UTC  |  Edited by: London Spy
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The problem is that what you're describing requires dozens of man hours of work just to know if someone is online or not.

That simply isn't either a fun or effective use of time.


As the attacker that is your issue to deal with, not the defenders. You can do something else you know. Sounds like the life of merc/bounty hunting is not for you.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#152 - 2016-12-02 18:19:00 UTC
London Spy wrote:


As the attacker that is your issue to deal with, not the defenders. You can do something else you know. Sounds like the life of merc/bounty hunting is not for you.


This is a game not a CCTV job.

Games should be fun to play and sitting there doing nothing other than waiting for someone to log in is not fun gameplay.
Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#153 - 2016-12-02 18:19:50 UTC
London Spy wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The problem is that what you're describing requires dozens of man hours of work just to know if someone is online or not.

That simply isn't either a fun or effective use of time.


As the attacker that is your issue to deal with, not the defenders. You can do something else you know. Sounds like the life of merc/bounty hunting is not for you.

A troll is a troll, and a parrot troll at that, safe to ignore when you have read it once.

Thus, blocked. Big smile
London Spy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#154 - 2016-12-02 18:21:00 UTC
Starrakatt wrote:
London Spy wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
The problem is that what you're describing requires dozens of man hours of work just to know if someone is online or not.

That simply isn't either a fun or effective use of time.


As the attacker that is your issue to deal with, not the defenders. You can do something else you know. Sounds like the life of merc/bounty hunting is not for you.

A troll is a troll, and a parrot troll at that, safe to ignore when you have read it once.

Thus, blocked. Big smile


Fair play. But opposing view does not equal troll. Perhaps it may be related to why you struggle to find your targets.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#155 - 2016-12-02 18:23:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Ralph King-Griffin
London Spy wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
let's work out a pattern of log in times without knowing when someone logs in.


Scout?

The more difficult part of the solution is where. But that is solved with locators and roaming and taking on a contract - of course if you are a genuine merc with more information than none. Otherwise if someone is paying you to go find them that is a different matter. But all the tools are the same.

For hours and hours.
Typically only 10% of a corporations members are online.
Regardless of size that's pretty much the wartime rule of thumb.
Now, out of a 60 man group ,whom do you look for?

Let's assume they're activity profile matches your own (research ftw)
But in the 24h before the war going live they've moved, some to wh space, some to solitude, some dropped
We now have 40, most of whom are not going to login (and that's fine)
We can assume an 8 minute return on locates and a pool of maby 4 level 4 locates per constellation (5. Standing isn't quick to get with a range of corps)

Starting to see where this is going?

You have to run the locates, scout them out, if they're not there you need to run them again to verify location,
if they're moving fantastic, you're hunt is on but by and large you are told they're still docked in the top station ...
Now you're looking at this another 39 times,
you're going to spend an entire night at this and it's the least engaging thing I can possibly imagine doing in EVE.

But GOOD NEWS , luckily for you in this scenario there's one facet of mercenaries that were completely unaffected by this! remember those degenerate hubhumping undock queens we all love so much?
Yesssereeebob they're almost 100% unaffected and they're growing.

You say maybe we should go do something else,
well most of us did,
they're by and large sitting in or near one of the hub's or connecting pipes.
London Spy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#156 - 2016-12-02 18:29:53 UTC  |  Edited by: London Spy
Ralph King-Griffin wrote:
London Spy wrote:
Vimsy Vortis wrote:
let's work out a pattern of log in times without knowing when someone logs in.


Scout?

The more difficult part of the solution is where. But that is solved with locators and roaming and taking on a contract - of course if you are a genuine merc with more information than none. Otherwise if someone is paying you to go find them that is a different matter. But all the tools are the same.

For hours and hours.
Typically only 10% of a corporations members are online.
Regardless of size that's pretty much the wartime rule of thumb.
Now, out of a 60 man group ,whom do you look for?

Let's assume they're activity profile matches your own (research ftw)
But in the 24h before the war going live they've moved, some to wh space, some to solitude, some dropped
We now have 40, most of whom are not going to login (and that's fine)
We can assume an 8 minute return on locates and a pool of maby 4 level 4 locates per constellation (5. Standing isn't quick to get with a range of corps)

Starting to see where this is going?

You have to run the locates, scout them out, if they're not there you need to run them again to verify location,
if they're moving fantastic, you're hunt is on but by and large you are told they're still docked in the top station ...
Now you're looking at this another 39 times,
you're going to spend an entire night at this and it's the least engaging thing I can possibly imagine doing in EVE.

But GOOD NEWS , luckily for you in this scenario there's one facet of mercenaries that were completely unaffected by this! remember those degenerate hubhumping undock queens we all love so much?
Yesssereeebob they're almost 100% unaffected and they're growing.



Yep, completely get that - so you go back to your issuer and say, look they ran off - if you want us to keep going you pay for another week or agree a sum to hunt via WH. Move on to the next contract. Sometimes the disruption is enough for the issuer.

But as a merc, you need to resist the fixation - pay per kill makes hunting more worthwhile and more satisfying in my book. You get a slippery prey and its a game of cat and mouse.

The 'bad' thing about the hub campers and the blanket wardec faux merc corp policy is it will dissolve the power of the hubs. Not sure what that will do to the long term state of the economy, but it will force distribution away from hubs, which may mean that roaming mercs may become standard practice again eventually.

Hubcampers, the economists at heart. Who would have thunk.
Salvos Rhoska
#157 - 2016-12-02 18:41:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
I dont care if CCP makes locator agents more efficient, institutes a purchasable service to access Watchlist as it was before, or any number of potential options.

Just as long as its not free or automatic.

Participation in this thread and doing some thinking has finally congealed my previous nascent undifferentiated antipathy, into abject hate of the availability of free information in EVE.

Intel being free devalues the most valuable resource in EVE, information, to zero.
I find that unacceptable, and directly harmful to content creation, competition and opportunity.



BUT

I have contempt for the fact that what finally broke the Watchlists back, was the concerns of NS Titan/cap pilots.

I get why, but I find it a petty and self-serving justification as compared to the argument that free intel is bad for EVE throughout.

The premise and impetus is all wrong. The change was made for the wrong reasons, and thus did not consider its repercussions.

So now NS Titan/Cap pilots are happy, but the results of the change has caused serious problems for other content providers which seemingly where not considered or represented in the change.

Leaves a really bad taste in my mouth.



I recognise that the removal of Watchlist as it was, is a serious problem for some content providers., Mercs in particular.
But I would argue its not the removal of Watchlist itself, as a free and automatic service, that is the problem, its the inefficiency and inadequacy of underlying systems/mechanics to take up the slack thereafter.

Im all for options to reconcile this difference, but they MUST require effort/time/SP/isk, or some matrix of these.

Im perfectly fine with even massive buffs to locating and gathering intel on targets, to the point of immediate pinpoint accuracy and even target tracking, as long as they require a rational expense in some intermix of effort/time/SP/isk.

If someone wants intel, ranging from ambiguous to perfect, and is prepared to invest for it, by all means, let it be so.
Buff the hell out of locator agents, as long as people pay something for it,
Just as long as its not free of investment in effort/time/SP/isk in some configuration.

Merc Corps can then adjust their fees, margins and operations accordingly.



PS: It really is **** that the self-serving interest of super-rich NS entities was the petty straw that broke the Watchlists back, and then cascaded without compromise/compensation in mechanics onto the necks of Merc Corps and the already crippled Bounty Hunters profession.

The argument and basis, should have been removing free universal automatic intel on the login behavior of other players, not the whining of NS Titan/cap pilots whom are a tiny minority of EVE.

Basically Merc Corps got f***ed, just so NS Titan/Cap pilots can be even safer.
Nobody seemingly bothered to consider the repercussions, or make plans for change accordingly.

PPS: Buffing the hell out of location/tracking possibilities is the natural counterpoint, at commensurate investment in effort/time/SP/isk in some configuration.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#158 - 2016-12-02 18:58:20 UTC
London Spy wrote:

Yep, completely get that.


No, you don't.

You are saying mercs are not allowed to have a fun game.
London Spy
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#159 - 2016-12-02 19:09:12 UTC  |  Edited by: London Spy
baltec1 wrote:
London Spy wrote:

Yep, completely get that.


No, you don't.

You are saying mercs are not allowed to have a fun game.


I was mercing before hubcamping became the done thing - including when the playerbase was a fraction of the size now. Im saying you need to go back to the oldschool. Not this wardec everything and pop a hauler in jita lark. Im quite dissapointed on how the recent methods have blighted the profession.

Eve is all about the long game - not COD mechanics. Information is key, and use of that information is crucial.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#160 - 2016-12-02 19:18:54 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
London Spy wrote:


I was mercing before hubcamping became the done thing


It was a thing 4 years before you started. The only reason all the mercs are at it now is because they have no other option.

London Spy wrote:


- including when the playerbase was a fraction of the size now. Im saying you need to go back to the oldschool. Not this wardec everything and pop a hauler in jita lark. Im quite dissapointed on how the recent methods have blighted the profession.


It can't go back until mercs have a tool that will allow them the filter out the targets not playing the game.

London Spy wrote:


Eve is all about the long game - not COD mechanics. Information is key, and use of that information is crucial.


And spending all of your time chasing people not even logged in is **** gameplay.