These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

Watch Lists in High Sec

Author
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#181 - 2016-12-03 09:53:53 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Dracvlad wrote:
I am not a merc either, however I have started to do war decs, what is important to me is target selection which I have touched on before, and the target selection aspect which is most important is that your target has something tangible in space.

The very fact that you are targeting a character who can move around different systems should make it hard and the easy no cost perfect intel of the watch list was abhorrent to me as is much of the data on the Eve map. The sad fact is that many of you got used to that free intel and based you play around that, and of course it hurts your play style.

I see baltec1 who is a can flipper, 0.0 player and ganker who has never done hisec merc stuff claiming that it is next to impossible to hunt targets and bow beating people who go against his point of view. Well as you are after a character who can go anywhere on Eve it damn well should be and to equate it to missions as he did above is so laughable that it pushed me to make this post.

Over time hisec has developed into an area where people avoid war decs, fair enough success in the end has turned into a loss of potential targets, so all you really have left is people who can avoid and people doing logistics from null sec alliances which is what the majority of kills are, it is simple evolution, but I see more and more Citadels put up and no war decs, and I have to wonder why you are war dec'ing people who can easily run away and hide and yet you do not war dec the people with Citadels, is that because you are failing to evolve. I went after POCO's owned by war dec entities, quite fun that, I have little chance of winning, but I am having a good laugh at the over kill brought to the first defence and then the failed log off trap on the second POCO, but it was P I R A T who are laughable.

I think that with the removal of the watch list giving you free intel on people logged will result in your prey changing their approach to move around less because their login status is not reported, give it time and stop being so defeatist, the prey will adjust and think that their log off not being detailed will make it easier for them and will make it easier for you in fact I am sure that you are seeing that happen.



Only 10% of a corp/alliance will be online at any given time, that means 90% of your targets are not playing and you have no idea which they are. This is the problem, the vast majority of your time as a merc is spent chasing targets that don't even exist which is why I used that mission example as that is exactly what mercs face now.

I'm not exactly shocked the biggest anti pvp campaigner is against giving mercs a simple tool that tells them a target is offline so they can actually go hunt things rather than spend all of their time chasing none existent targets.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#182 - 2016-12-03 10:18:58 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
I am not a merc either, however I have started to do war decs, what is important to me is target selection which I have touched on before, and the target selection aspect which is most important is that your target has something tangible in space.

The very fact that you are targeting a character who can move around different systems should make it hard and the easy no cost perfect intel of the watch list was abhorrent to me as is much of the data on the Eve map. The sad fact is that many of you got used to that free intel and based you play around that, and of course it hurts your play style.

I see baltec1 who is a can flipper, 0.0 player and ganker who has never done hisec merc stuff claiming that it is next to impossible to hunt targets and bow beating people who go against his point of view. Well as you are after a character who can go anywhere on Eve it damn well should be and to equate it to missions as he did above is so laughable that it pushed me to make this post.

Over time hisec has developed into an area where people avoid war decs, fair enough success in the end has turned into a loss of potential targets, so all you really have left is people who can avoid and people doing logistics from null sec alliances which is what the majority of kills are, it is simple evolution, but I see more and more Citadels put up and no war decs, and I have to wonder why you are war dec'ing people who can easily run away and hide and yet you do not war dec the people with Citadels, is that because you are failing to evolve. I went after POCO's owned by war dec entities, quite fun that, I have little chance of winning, but I am having a good laugh at the over kill brought to the first defence and then the failed log off trap on the second POCO, but it was P I R A T who are laughable.

I think that with the removal of the watch list giving you free intel on people logged will result in your prey changing their approach to move around less because their login status is not reported, give it time and stop being so defeatist, the prey will adjust and think that their log off not being detailed will make it easier for them and will make it easier for you in fact I am sure that you are seeing that happen.



Only 10% of a corp/alliance will be online at any given time, that means 90% of your targets are not playing and you have no idea which they are. This is the problem, the vast majority of your time as a merc is spent chasing targets that don't even exist which is why I used that mission example as that is exactly what mercs face now.

I'm not exactly shocked the biggest anti pvp campaigner is against giving mercs a simple tool that tells them a target is offline so they can actually go hunt things rather than spend all of their time chasing none existent targets.


That mission example was pathetic, evolving target selection is the issue mate, but you are too entitled to see that and without the watch list people will change their habits and become easier for intelligent players to pin down, thankfully I think a lot of hunters will actually be able to work that out and those that don't, well there is always pipe and hub hunting...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#183 - 2016-12-03 11:06:57 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Dracvlad wrote:


That mission example was pathetic


Its exactly the situation as mercs face applied to missions.




Dracvlad wrote:


evolving target selection is the issue mate, but you are too entitled to see that and without the watch list people will change their habits and become easier for intelligent players to pin down, thankfully I think a lot of hunters will actually be able to work that out and those that don't, well there is always pipe and hub hunting...


How exactly is it easier to hunt people when you cannot tell when they are offline meaning 90% of the target you will hunt don't even exist.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#184 - 2016-12-03 11:13:56 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


That mission example was pathetic


Its exactly the situation as mercs face applied to missions.




Dracvlad wrote:


evolving target selection is the issue mate, but you are too entitled to see that and without the watch list people will change their habits and become easier for intelligent players to pin down, thankfully I think a lot of hunters will actually be able to work that out and those that don't, well there is always pipe and hub hunting...


How exactly is it easier to hunt people when you cannot tell when they are offline meaning 90% of the target you will hunt don't even exist.


Change in behaviour, when an absolute is removed people change their behaviour, simple stuff do keep up.

As for that mission comment, Roll

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#185 - 2016-12-03 11:28:06 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Change in behaviour, when an absolute is removed people change their behaviour, simple stuff do keep up.

As for that mission comment, Roll


So, the fact that 90% of targets dont exist and mercs have no way to tell has no impact at all? Your logic is once again bollocks.

Spacing Cowgirl
Holland NV
#186 - 2016-12-03 11:35:57 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Spacing Cowgirl wrote:
Eve, its just a little less safe , can live very good with that.


Where the hell did you suddenly appear from.

And no, EVE is not "just a little less safe" now.
Its even safer than before. The complete opposite.
Especially for NS Titan/Cap pilots.



That depends very much if your hunting, or hunted..

* example, was hunted last weekend, moving a big asset trough the bad neighborhood of eve

I did not have ( not enough bro's around ) to give me early warning about incoming hunters.
Also i was not able to see if my hunters where online.

Yet, it went the same for the one's looking to chew on me.

Its more based on chance and skill then "look, he is online .. he can take only *that* route.. lets go grab em"
( in my case, it was easy, not so much route choice, there where certain points i HAD to go trough )

And, on that aspect, i would loved to have a watchlist back..
And, so as my hunters.. ( by so , by using ****-o-clock-alarmclock was able to ninja trough there space )

Thats, my point. ( on , supers .. that is )
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#187 - 2016-12-03 11:37:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Change in behaviour, when an absolute is removed people change their behaviour, simple stuff do keep up.

As for that mission comment, Roll


So, the fact that 90% of targets dont exist and mercs have no way to tell has no impact at all? Your logic is once again bollocks.



They exist, they had under the watch list chosen not to log in, how many of them without being reported for free on teh watch list will decide to log in now, how many of them will not bother to change their location because the perfect intel of watch lists is gone, how many of them will now start doing something in space now that the perfect intel of watch lists is removed.

That 90% figure you brandy around as a prop, like a walking stick to lean upon in your dotage is not going to be 90% is it?

The simple fact is that peoples behaviour changes when things get changed, my own behaviour has changed in fact.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#188 - 2016-12-03 11:46:16 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Dracvlad wrote:


They exist


They do not.

As a test, feel free to tell me which members of my own corp are currently online and available to hunt
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#189 - 2016-12-03 11:59:08 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


They exist


They do not.

As a test, feel free to tell me which members of my own corp are currently online and available to hunt


Actually I will tell you how many of the people in the corp I have war dec'd are operating in the area in which I am operating, and how many of their allied mercs are around, zero. Notice that I said operating which is important.

When I go blap their POCO I expect 3 PIRAT tackle and 8 PIRAT DPS and 6 neutral reppers, perhaps one or two people from Vendetta or Public-Enemy.

Does that make a point or not?

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#190 - 2016-12-03 12:02:07 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


Actually I will tell you how many of the people in the corp I have war dec'd are operating in the area in which I am operating, and how many of their allied mercs are around, zero. Notice that I said operating which is important.


No more lies, answer the question

Spacing Cowgirl
Holland NV
#191 - 2016-12-03 12:31:38 UTC
Different ,
I suspect ( don't know, really ) that the change was made to slow down the highsec-wardec-noob-bashers a bit.
The before mentioned , im leet.. i just killed a T1 cruiser with my decked out faction whore-boat.

In that, working as intended. ( i guess, if that was the intention )
In that, good job of ccp protecting the new breed of players.

Face it, we all know players who stopped playing after endless highsec wardecs who they could
not match SP and experience wise.
Working as intended ? Empty servers = no game, for none of us.

And, while this is my personal opinion, when your one of those hero's who bash the new guys,
your not worthy to name yourself mercenary.

The real mercenary's can still do there job, no watch list needed.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#192 - 2016-12-03 12:50:23 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


Actually I will tell you how many of the people in the corp I have war dec'd are operating in the area in which I am operating, and how many of their allied mercs are around, zero. Notice that I said operating which is important.


No more lies, answer the question



I answered the question, your corp would be a stupid target for me to select, you have nothing that ties you down in my area, nothing of value and you are in areas that I do not currently operate. perhaps not for Vendetta or Pubiic-Enemy or P I R A T who could interdict some dumb asses shopping in hisec, but for me it makes zero sense.

The trick is in target selection, and you made my point for me, thank you for that.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Starrakatt
Celtic Anarchy
Dead Terrorists
#193 - 2016-12-03 13:11:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Starrakatt
Dracvlad wrote:
That mission example was pathetic, evolving target selection is the issue mate, but you are too entitled to see that and without the watch list people will change their habits and become easier for intelligent players to pin down, thankfully I think a lot of hunters will actually be able to work that out and those that don't, well there is always pipe and hub hunting...
You speak as if we were debating coming changes or one that just happened and say 'nayh doomsayers!' except taht the change has been made for a while now and I can tell you, as non-pipe/hub camper merc, yesI am a hunter, always have been, my gameplay now is running some Locators on high profile targets/contracts, send scouts to check on them see if they are online (most of the time they are not) for hours on end.

My main stays logged off in the meanwhile to maximize scouting on this account too. When I find no target, I check main mission/mining hubs, because. Sometimes I get lucky.

For example, I got no kill yesterday, after 4-5 hours of roaming and running some Locators. found some Alpha accounts/new players in frigates, I didn't bother the 15 jumps to kill a Venture. I don't focus on newbros.

As for your 'but wardec and attack structures to get a response' argument: Sometimes you get contracts over structures, fine enough, mostly not though, most of the time it's the players thet are the targets. Nobody that I know bash structures for fun.

Spacing Cowgirl wrote:

The real mercenary's can still do there job, no watch list needed.

For heaven's sake, where did you read we ask for the Watchlist back? We do not. We get it we won't have it back. What we want is SOME fonctionality (like Locator changes for example) to PARTIALLY compensate the empty void it's removal created.

Dracvlad wrote:

I answered the question, your corp would be a stupid target for me to select, you have nothing that ties you down in my area, nothing of value and you are in areas that I do not currently operate. perhaps not for Vendetta or Pubiic-Enemy or P I R A T who could interdict some dumb asses shopping in hisec, but for me it makes zero sense.
You do realize you will get zero kills out of that war right? That is you will spend HOURS on end reinforcing POCO, for NOTHING, except annoying PIRAT and friends.

That's target selection.
Spacing Cowgirl
Holland NV
#194 - 2016-12-03 13:35:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Spacing Cowgirl
Quote:

For heaven's sake, where did you read we ask for the Watchlist back? We do not. We get it we won't have it back. What we want is SOME fonctionality (like Locator changes for example) to PARTIALLY compensate the empty void it's removal created.


First post, original poster.

* i want my watchlist back in highsec *



suggestion , ability to tag ships.. like you tag wildlife , or .. cars for that matter..
Got to be on grid, but you can put a tracker on a ship without aggro or being noticed.

The dumb one's you can track and kill ( clean ship as fix ) , the smart one's will adapt

And, even a new bro ( im into new-bro-protection ) , can protect himself.
( as, even a alpha can clean his ship )


I can also see some uses as a tracked ship can be a perfect bate.



*and somehow i broke the quote thing*
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#195 - 2016-12-03 13:35:23 UTC
Starrakatt wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
That mission example was pathetic, evolving target selection is the issue mate, but you are too entitled to see that and without the watch list people will change their habits and become easier for intelligent players to pin down, thankfully I think a lot of hunters will actually be able to work that out and those that don't, well there is always pipe and hub hunting...
You speak as if we were debating coming changes or one that just happened and say 'nayh doomsayers!' except taht the change has been made for a while now and I can tell you, as non-pipe/hub camper merc, yesI am a hunter, always have been, my gameplay now is running some Locators on high profile targets/contracts, send scouts to check on them see if they are online (most of the time they are not) for hours on end.

My main stays logged off in the meanwhile to maximize scouting on this account too. When I find no target, I check main mission/mining hubs, because. Sometimes I get lucky.

For example, I got no kill yesterday, after 4-5 hours of roaming and running some Locators. found some Alpha accounts/new players in frigates, I didn't bother the 15 jumps to kill a Venture. I don't focus on newbros.

As for your 'but wardec and attack structures to get a response' argument: Sometimes you get contracts over structures, fine enough, mostly not though, most of the time it's the players thet are the targets. Nobody that I know bash structures for fun.

Spacing Cowgirl wrote:

The real mercenary's can still do there job, no watch list needed.

For heaven's sake, where did you read we ask for the Watchlist back? We do not. We get it we won't have it back. What we want is SOME fonctionality (like Locator changes for example) to PARTIALLY compensate the empty void it's removal created.

Dracvlad wrote:

I answered the question, your corp would be a stupid target for me to select, you have nothing that ties you down in my area, nothing of value and you are in areas that I do not currently operate. perhaps not for Vendetta or Pubiic-Enemy or P I R A T who could interdict some dumb asses shopping in hisec, but for me it makes zero sense.
You do realize you will get zero kills out of that war right? That is you will spend HOURS on end reinforcing POCO, for NOTHING, except annoying PIRAT and friends.

That's target selection.


Thanks for a reply, it is good to get one from a merc, first of all I know of you, there are some war dec players I keep tabs of, mainly though reputation and contacts and of course forum posting.

The population in hisec is pretty much beaten down into a quivering mass of avoidance, your failure to find anything worthy to shoot is perhaps more due to that then anything else. People who are into that sad and sorry state will take time to start doing things when they see threads like this and they have people like me telling them not to fear, from my prespective the change in attitude has not really happaned yet and will it happen, yes, when the new bros that went into null sec first come to hisec for a different type of play.

I actually do support the locator agent change and I hope CCP sees sense in doing that, however I would also like it so that if you ask an agent who I have high standings with, that agent will tip me off, no such thing as a free lunch...

I repeat the key thing is target selection, you as mercs do not get to chose who people are paying to hit, but you do have a choice on whether to take the contract, for example one forum warrior got uptight with me and asked a number of mercs to war dec me and they said no as it was not worth it, and you know why, because my play style is to make it too damn difficult and they know it. They refused a contract because they knew that I would just be too much of a pain.

I do realise that it will be difficult to get kills out of that war dec, but not impossible, and I have my reasons which I will not go into at this point, but I have been having fun, when the campaign is over I will explain it to you. But I have annoyed PIRAT, I had their CEO camping me, which was funny as hell and the log off trap was hilarious.

As I said it is target selection or contract acceptance which is key, going after a character who can move around and has assets all over the place like me is very difficult, I get someone who wants to camp me all the time in hisec with too much force, well I will see him in Stain then, or Tenal, or low sec, or he makes a mistake and gives me an opportunity.

You are doing it right, you have my respect and I hope that hisec can start to improve over time to give you more of what you find fun, but it was beaten down into a quivering mass of mass avoidance and people like me want to change that.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#196 - 2016-12-03 13:41:26 UTC
Spacing Cowgirl wrote:
Different ,
I suspect ( don't know, really ) that the change was made to slow down the highsec-wardec-noob-bashers a bit.
The before mentioned , im leet.. i just killed a T1 cruiser with my decked out faction whore-boat.

In that, working as intended. ( i guess, if that was the intention )
In that, good job of ccp protecting the new breed of players.

Face it, we all know players who stopped playing after endless highsec wardecs who they could
not match SP and experience wise.
Working as intended ? Empty servers = no game, for none of us.

And, while this is my personal opinion, when your one of those hero's who bash the new guys,
your not worthy to name yourself mercenary.

The real mercenary's can still do there job, no watch list needed.


The change was made so the likes of us could not see when supercaps and titans logged in, mercs were not thought of.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#197 - 2016-12-03 13:42:28 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:


I answered the question


No you prattled on like you always do and avoided it.

Its a simple question, how many in my corp are online right now.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#198 - 2016-12-03 13:44:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
baltec1 wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:


I answered the question


No you prattled on like you always do and avoided it.

Its a simple question, how many in my corp are online right now.


It is a stupid question as I pointed out above, your corp is poor target selection for me, I don't give a rats ass if any of you are online or not.

But those I am at war with in my operating area do matter to me and I just told you that.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Neuntausend
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#199 - 2016-12-03 13:45:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Neuntausend
Spacing Cowgirl wrote:
suggestion , ability to tag ships.. like you tag wildlife , or .. cars for that matter..
Got to be on grid, but you can put a tracker on a ship without aggro or being noticed.

The dumb one's you can track and kill ( clean ship as fix ) , the smart one's will adapt

And, even a new bro ( im into new-bro-protection ) , can protect himself.
( as, even a alpha can clean his ship )


I can also see some uses as a tracked ship can be a perfect bate.

If I am on grid with the target already, I will either kill them, or follow them if they manage to run. At that point I know they're online, I know they're in space and I can see them and should be able to kill them. If they escape at that point - well done, well deserved.

Really, we don't need a way to track down players, because we already have one. We need a way to tell if these players are online *before* we spend lots of time trying to track them down, because it is really frustrating to track down mark after mark, only to find that they aren't playing the game.

Unlike players in Eve, wildlife or cars in the real world cannot just vanish. If I follow an animal track, I will eventually either find the animal or lose the track, but I can be sure that the animal still must be around somewhere, so it may be worth to keep looking. Maybe I can pick the track back up, maybe I run into the animal while searching. But if a player logs off, he just ceases to exist. And if I cannot tell whether the target I'm tracking actually exists or not, that's rather frustrating.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
Astral Alliance
#200 - 2016-12-03 13:57:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Neuntausend wrote:
Spacing Cowgirl wrote:
suggestion , ability to tag ships.. like you tag wildlife , or .. cars for that matter..
Got to be on grid, but you can put a tracker on a ship without aggro or being noticed.

The dumb one's you can track and kill ( clean ship as fix ) , the smart one's will adapt

And, even a new bro ( im into new-bro-protection ) , can protect himself.
( as, even a alpha can clean his ship )


I can also see some uses as a tracked ship can be a perfect bate.

If I am on grid with the target already, I will either kill them, or follow them if they manage to run. At that point I know they're online, I know they're in space and I can see them and should be able to kill them. If they escape at that point - well done, well deserved.

Really, we don't need a way to track down players, because we already have one. We need a way to tell if these players are online *before* we spend lots of time trying to track them down, because it is really frustrating to track down mark after mark, only to find that they aren't playing the game.

Unlike players in Eve, wildlife or cars in the real world cannot just vanish. If I follow an animal track, I will eventually either find the animal or lose the track, but I can be sure that the animal still must be around somewhere, so it may be worth to keep looking. Maybe I can pick the track back up, maybe I run into the animal while searching. But if a player logs off, he just ceases to exist. And if I cannot tell whether the target I'm tracking actually exists or not, that's rather frustrating.


I have sympathy for you in once sense because it is disheartening in that before you had a free way to run along all jolly and get that key with the only effort being to catch him, but don't you even acknowledge that the very fact they log off and don't play for a week is even worse and is one of the reasons you are now in this mess?

EDIT: I also think it was frustrating that you were given that information free like and did not have to work for it in anyway, like many I would acccept the online information being given by a locator agent, however if I have standings with that agent I expect to be told of your interest...

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp