EVE General Discussion

How does one have an 'ulterior motive' about something that works the way one already wants? The only people who would have ulterior motives are people who want something changed to benefit them.

That would be you lol.\

It reminds me of Goonswarm and Dominion Sov. Back when CCP announced Dominion sov, they claimed "it will be great for small groups and offer small gang objectives". It was supposed to be this cure for the ills of the old POS bash based system.

Many of us (including many goons) looked at the system and instantly understood that the opposite would occur, it would favor huge groups and even pave the way for bigger groups. The people who (in their anger and hatred of Goons and big coalitions) thought that this would finally open the door for them were actually just being stupid and shortsighted. And Goons told them so (so did others of us btw).

Their response? "you big group people and Goons just don't want Dominion's system because you know it spells the end of your bullying everyone else!!!". The Goon posters kept going, kept telling them "wwe are telling you, we will use Dominion to screw you". They didn't listen, they claimed Goons had (wait for it.................) Ulterior Motives for opposing Dominion Sov.

The result. 5+ years of Goon Empire, Blue donuts and big alliances growing fat off of rental income (small guys DID get to null sec...as paying renters only!).

The people who loved the idea of Dominion because they thought it meant they could screw goons were actually celebrating their own screwing... Because they were stupid.



You're doing kind of the same kind of thing Salvos. You think CCP took something from you for not letting you have a free alpha (this is laughably false), but more to the point, you think a free alpha alt is fine, but if it happened so many aspects of the game would be screwed up, and not just pvp, I'd personally help contribute even more to the isk stuffing of EVE with my PVE alpha alt along side me 4 Omega accounts.

Except, what actually happens is that when you pay to inhabit the second floor, you're still allowed to inhabit the first floor of that building.

In fact, they'll even let you inhabit the first floor of a completely separate building, too! Obviously you can't physically be in both buildings at the exact same time, but you're free to move between them as often as you like.

Pretty generous, really.

I give you props for clever rebuttal.

You were good with the first sentence. Not so much with the second. Alphas are not attached to anything. They, like every other account, are standalone entities which change in no way functionally whether owned by a single player or not.

To be explicit: You are NOT alluding to something that is free. You are referring to something that does not exist and suggesting it should be free.

The proof this is wrong is easy to obtain: Let an Omega account lapse. What abilities do you retain? If the answer is none, IE: you cannot log into the game or play in any manner, your statement that "everything on an Omega costs" is correct. If not, then we have an issue as that statement is factually untrue and any assertions based on that falsehood are irrelevant to what CCP actually offers and restricts.

Also, regarding using technical means to bypass login restrictions: That's just a way of saying "some people don't get caught [insert thing you want to do here, IE: botting/exploiting/etc], thus [that thing] should be legal". It's never been and never will be a good argument for anything. And it's a problem that only gets exasperated when there is no legitimate way to have alt accounts.

This is not about you, I looked at your killboard and you stopped for a couple of months being obviously bored with RvB and started again recently after the arrival of Alpha clones and you are busy killing new players in low sec who are for me easy uninteresting kills, but if that is what shakes your boat that's fine, it just is not for me. What you are killing does not need more than one account and a Curse or Assault Frigate are the perfect ship to kill players that have no idea how to fit properly or fight back in the ships that they are in. Perhaps one of them will setup a ship to kill your AF, but their fitting skills may not enable them to do so. Yeah you only need one account for what you do.

You may see my reply as a personal attack, you rage enough to do so, but it is not, it is clarifying why you do not matter, not that this bothers me, my post was always about the use of a second account as a scout so that people would be able to lose the scout instead of the juicy Omega clone full of goodies or have the intel not to jump into something, this would prevent a lot of kills and for obvious reasons certain players such as high sec gankers and gate campers would rather people did not have that second account...

I hope that this does not turn your back into a raging fanatic, but it is of course fun to read, but over to you and your anger control issues...

Im engaging in this thread for debate on the issue between free/paid.
Id have done the same had I been here back when the change was being discussed before it was implemented.
Maybe Im just jelly I missed all the fun back then.

---

I dont expect or demand CCP to change the current system.

I dont personally have any use for Alphas, except as slow SP farms from which to draw and specialize potential future Omega accounts, and a reserve against balance/equi5y changes.

Ofc other players may have use for them, or even more use of the hypothetical change I proposed for sake of argument on free/paid, and use against that against me, but that also does not concern me, cos this thread will not lead to a CCP change anyways.

---

1) Jenn Aside mentioned using them as an assist while she clears L4s with her 4 Omegas. I dont care if she does. Personally I think its a waste of time/effort for very little profit/efficiency. It might shave a few minutes off completion. Ofc time is ISK, but it also means the effort of handling a pretty ****** Alpha simultaneously, compared to her Omegas

I readily recognise and salute Jenn Asides expertise and experience for this kind of content, and have myself followed her advise on many occassions from her many informative posts on those issues. But I dont believe she would actually bother flying an Alpha alongside her (probably perfect) Omega fleets for this purpose.

I love ya, Jenn. Please dont hate me.
I am not what you think I am. I am also not your enemy, though I am an opponent.

2) The issue of simultaneous Alphas as scouts is interesting.
-Since all Omegas could field one in my proposal, the advantage is shared. Status quo remains the same.
-As aother poster pointed out, there are some people with ulterior motives that specifically did not want this to happen, as it would systemically impair their particular way of creating content.
-As also has been shown, it is currently possible to field an infinite amount of free scouts, albeit with only one active ingame at a time. Yes, Alphas are crap scouts, but they are scouts in infinite supply and cost nothing.

3) This however can readily be sidestepped by using multiple computers or IPs, and other options I wont elaborate on.This has always been the elephant in the room. CCP has largely turned a blind eye to this, because it is practically impossible to enforce systemically, and I would argue because it helps retain players and create content. Its good for the game, but also bad. CCP ofc is empowered by the TOS/EULA to enforce this in specific instances with any recourse they wish, leaving it up to the account holders whether or not to pursue a civil case in a commerce court, which would be rare, complicated, expensive and an area of law without much precedent or legislation.

4) There is no point in attempting to paint or construe me as a whiner, or "entitled" gib me the free stuffs.
I really dont care either way. I love EVE just fine as it is.
In my top 10 list of regrets in my life, not starting EVE when it began rates a solid 5.
Im just discussing/debating the issues.
Forum warfare is what it is, but its important here too to say GF, as ingame, and not take it "too" personally.

---

Special props to Tyberius Franklin and Dracvlad in particular for understanding that. and discussing the issue itself, rationally and capably, rather than resorting to ad hominem and false implications. I thoroughly enjoyed debating with you, I hope I offered some challenge for your enjoyment too.

I concede, that CCPs choice, was the best choice, as argued here.
I, however, maintain my position and impetus of questioning the equity of free vs paid.

o7 and GF to all participants.

Fascinating, you are still butt hurt, next time you jump into a discussion like this make sure that your play style meshes when stating that you r example means anything in regards to the issue at hand, in affect when we look at your play style we can see that you do not gank, at least on this character and you do not appear to gate camp, you catch people in belts or missions, so a scout alpha will have no impact on your play at all, either for or against. Going back to the comment that I am fail because I use multiple accounts and your are 'better' because you use a sole account, well simple enough it is because what you are doing requires that you have a paid for Omega account that can pick off noobs. While I was operating against people who used multiple accounts as does anyone who moves a freighter or industrial in hisec for example.

So your retort on my original point is null and void because it has no relevance and neither do you, your play style is not affected by an alpha account being allowed at the same time for an Omega account player, what this impacts is people who have easy kills like gate camps and gankers in general. Not withstanding your failure to say that you would be happy to see one account per player, which you are not man enough to say even though you chest beat on being ace with a single account, wow!

The key issue for me is in regards to the casual hisec players who have been leaving this game, I for one think that allowing them to use an alpha character at the same time as their Omega character will enhance their game play and make them a tougher target. Creating more challenging game play for those that want to feed off them and I hope reduce the feeling that many have that they are just there to feed easy kills to people who have a beer with certain Devs and laugh at how they screw over carebears in hisec. But then whine when there are less and less people in the game to get their easy kills which then resulted in this desperate attempt to get more players by creating a F2P play setup that brings in lots of easy kill players for you to have fun on with minimal risk to your 80m SP character in T2 ships in low sec for example. At the same time people who have a single Omega clone are blocked from having an active Alpha account because they have paid for an Omega account which of course would make it more difficult for people who gate camp or gank, so bang, not allowed.

CCP really do have some fun moments in how they bend over backwards to support easy kill ganking in this game. I rather enjoy watching this train wreck continue, it is quite fascinating to me as it offers a deviation from watching Western civilisation collapse, which is fun for anyone who studied the fall of Rome for example. Fun times indeed, funny enough because I really enjoyed this game for many years I guess I am watching it with a morbid fascination because there are so many pointers here in terms of what is going on in real life too and there are over lapping attitudes, truly fascinating for me at least.

And I find you rather interesting because you show heavy virture signalling to the peer group in Eve and yet once you stood up for free speech over the use of a term that some people found unacceptable which garnered some respect for you from me, for what it is worth of course.

Time for that meaningless nap I guess...

I'm in lowsec shooting at anything that moves. If it happens to be newbies in ventures, then it's newbies in ventures. If it's a vet pvp'er in a t3c, then it's a vet pvp'er in a t3c. I've fought plenty of them. You can cherry pick from my kb all you like, at the end of the day, the kills that prove my understanding of this game and my superiority over you are there. You have never once demonstrated a sufficient enough understanding of this game to offer what I would consider credible advice to new players. Meanwhile, the vast majority of newbs that are dying to me in lowsec are getting good advice, and some isk, from me. I don't really care what you think of me, or what you believe of what I say, I'm doing far more for the health of this game than your half-baked backwards-arsed mumbo-jumbo walls of text on the forums. So please, go take a nap before you blow a fuse, and then when you come back to EVE, accept that you have a lot to learn, and go ******* learn it.

Like watch local when there are people in local all the time, check D-scan, ah you use a curse silly me, or keep aligned while mining a rock that moves quickly out of range, fun advice and utterly meaningless.

I am fascinated to ask you something, do you get the same buzz from killing an Alpha clone or a noob as you do for killing someone like yourself?

Is it the fact that you managed to catch someone perfect execution style that gives you the buzz and happiness?

But does that ultimately feel stale and that is why you drop the game for a while?

Glad to hear it, but these are players that had the courage to go into low sec, just like I did when I first started in 2009, except that I only died once in low sec when doing that. And I trained myself before heading to NPC 0.0 about 6 months into the game, getting through HED in a Hurricane, bet you did not do that? So a bit of blowing my own trumpet there, just to inform you that making assumptions that I do not understand Eve, which is amusing because I have done almost everything in this game except for hisec merc and living in a WH.

What I did in low sec was quite simple, understanding what people like you did to try to get kills, it took me less than a week to work out how easy it was to move around low sec and avoid people, though it was easier to evade at that point as all ships had the same warp speed and there was no ships with D-scan immunity. 0.0 was more of a challenge and what I did was send an alt that I biomassed into 0.0 to check bubble camps and find out how to get through them, was fun and it died a lot. I don't care for your respect, what I look for is whether I have done it for my own satisfaction.

I am good but I am not great at PvP, for example I was a micro-second too late on an ASB and lost a Vagabond, the reason being that I was dual boxing and trying to get my bait maller on another Assault Frigate, that was fun and I enjoyed that fight against people who started in 2003 and were very good PvP players. If I had not clicked too late I would have won that totally, that was however a great fight, and the reason I played Eve. That is why I get Eve.

Still killing noob players and Alphas does not get my juices flowing, sorry...