These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

CCP why can't I log an Omega and Alpha account on at the same time

First post
Author
Keno Skir
#81 - 2016-11-22 14:51:42 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
For the OP, the simple answer to your question is that Eve has always been a pay to win game, you can only play the game effectively with two characters in space, otherwise you are an easy kill and I think you understand that by the way you posted.



Just because YOU cannot play effectively with one character does not mean the rest of us are as floppy and flacid as you, sir Pirate
Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#82 - 2016-11-22 14:57:50 UTC
Keno Skir wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
For the OP, the simple answer to your question is that Eve has always been a pay to win game, you can only play the game effectively with two characters in space, otherwise you are an easy kill and I think you understand that by the way you posted.



Just because YOU cannot play effectively with one character does not mean the rest of us are as floppy and flacid as you, sir Pirate


Well, that's probably also because the rest of us know how to make friend and join communities.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#83 - 2016-11-22 15:14:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
For the OP, the simple answer to your question is that Eve has always been a pay to win game, you can only play the game effectively with two characters in space, otherwise you are an easy kill and I think you understand that by the way you posted.



HAHAHA! Whatever mate, I've only ever played with one account and my KB speaks for itself.


Calm down ganker! Also there is no proof that you have only one account, just your word, which I have to say is not worth much!


Everyone that knows me well enough knows I only have one account. Whether or not you believe me is irrelevant. You're a nobody. But you'll never be able to tie another character to me as an alt of any kind, ever, because I don't have or use one. I've only ever played EVE with one account, and the three toons I have on this account, this one being my main, along with a hauling alt and a low-skilled alt for pvp with rookies learning the game. If there was an easy way to prove it, I'd do so in a heartbeat. I have no reason to lie about this.

And you call me ganker as if that's a bad thing. Why are you discriminating against gankers? Seriously dude, don't be racist.

I have never had any intention of getting more than one account. Honestly, if it was true that you needed to pay two subs to achieve anything in this game, I would never have subbed to begin with. That would just be a blatant ripoff, and anyone that thinks you need more than one account is only deceiving themselves, and wasting their own money. Sorry, but I'm just not that easy to swindle.


Calm down ganker is a rip off of the HTFU line calm down miner, it is a nice throw away line that one can use at certain points in time. Wow using racist out of context to boot, you do need to calm down.

There is no way to prove that your words are true, there are so many people who do solo PvP, but have a boosting alt, thankfully made a bit more difficult, a Falcon alt and of course scouts to locate and get close to targets. Put simply it may be possible that you do indeed only have one account, but the odds are very unlikely.

As for being flabby, I played the first two years with a single account and there are a number of things that were high risk because of having one account when there was no one else online. A little bit or organisation and foresight normally sorted that for me, but it got a bit tedious as it often involved a lot of work or waiting around for people to get online.

The issue is that casual players are easy meat because of this, but seeing as you seem to be pushing one account only, can we impose that so everyone has a single account, I would rather like that!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#84 - 2016-11-22 15:17:37 UTC
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Keno Skir wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
For the OP, the simple answer to your question is that Eve has always been a pay to win game, you can only play the game effectively with two characters in space, otherwise you are an easy kill and I think you understand that by the way you posted.



Just because YOU cannot play effectively with one character does not mean the rest of us are as floppy and flacid as you, sir Pirate


Well, that's probably also because the rest of us know how to make friend and join communities.


Which is why you are in your own alt corp with no other players I suppose.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Remiel Pollard
Shock Treatment Ministries
#85 - 2016-11-22 15:20:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Remiel Pollard
Dracvlad wrote:
Meaningless words from a meaningless nobody


Uhuh, I've been playing with a single account since 2012. You don't have to believe it, because once again, you are a nobody who doesn't matter to anybody. There are enough people in the game who do matter that know this is true that I feel no need to convince you, only the people that might read your bullshit and be misled by it. One might even mistake you for a CCP shill trying to convince people to hand over more of their money unecessarily, but only briefly before remembering you're a nobody who just isn't good enough to work with CCP. I'm not pushing for people to have one account, I'm just calling out your bullshit claim that the game can't be played with just one. I'm not the only one who does just fine with one account though, vladdy boy, so you once again do little more than expatiate complete bullshit and subsequently demonstrate your lack of understanding of EVE Online, as usual. Thank you, come again.

“Some capsuleers claim that ECM is 'dishonorable' and 'unfair'. Jam those ones first, and kill them last.” - Jirai 'Fatal' Laitanen, Pithum Nullifier Training Manual c. YC104

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#86 - 2016-11-22 15:21:27 UTC  |  Edited by: Jenn aSide
Memphis Baas wrote:
We get them, just don't agree.


Highlighted the part that will go way over his head Big smile .

I'd wager we all know people like this IRL, folks with severely suspect and self serving ways of thinking that always mistake disagreement as lack of understanding. ie "You would agree with me if you could just understand what I mean!!". I think it's a clear indication that the person can't grasp the idea that other people are different from them and will have different opinions even with the same information and understanding.

In this particular case we can also see the deep and selfish shortsightedness and lack of ability to understand consequences.

When CCP 1st announced alpha clones on this forum, I was one of the first few posters to say that multiboxing must not be allowed for alphas. The reason was simple, I could easily see how I myself would be able to use these things for my own benefit.

Even if CCP were to only allow the use a single alpha alt, that would be too much, my alpha would fly a vexor with medium faction drones and follow my main ratting ship around anomalies and missions clearing up all the small stuff while i killed the bigger stuff, increasing my isk per hour greatly. And If I can figure that out, so can every other ratter and mission runner (and lets not even think of what real PVPrs would do), and having a 'cleaner alt' would become more than standard, it would be required.

If I were as shortsighted as Salvos and the OP appear to be, the thought of the consequences (and well as being able to understand WHY that would be bad) would never have crossed my mind. So again it's not a lack of being able to understand the guy, it's understanding all to well why such ideas are bad.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#87 - 2016-11-22 15:38:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Dracvlad
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Meaningless words from a meaningless nobody


Uhuh, I've been playing with a single account since 2012. You don't have to believe it, because once again, you are a nobody who doesn't matter to anybody. There are enough people in the game who do matter that know this is true that I feel no need to convince you, only the people that might read your bullshit and be misled by it. One might even mistake you for a CCP shill trying to convince people to hand over more of their money unecessarily, but only briefly before remembering you're a nobody who just isn't good enough to work with CCP. I'm not pushing for people to have one account, I'm just calling out your bullshit claim that the game can't be played with just one. I'm not the only one who does just fine with one account though, vladdy boy, so you once again do little more than expatiate complete bullshit and subsequently demonstrate your lack of understanding of EVE Online, as usual. Thank you, come again.


You do need to calm down, did the threat of legal action from those Scientologists really get you that worked up, and you have never calmed down since?

So when people play with one account like I did for two years and those around me had two, three or even more accounts I am at a massive disadvantage am I not? My statement is that Eve has always been pay to win and having the ability to pay for more than one account is effectively paying to win, the OP asked to even that up a bit by allowing him to run an Alpha account alongside his Omega clone which is a fair point.

That you state rather self pompously that you have one account as if it means anything when the majority of PvP players have multiple accounts makes no real difference, the majority of people that one plays against in Eve have multiple accounts, or at least the ones who matter do. I for one would be very happy to restrict Eve to one account only, I guess you would not!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Keno Skir
#88 - 2016-11-22 18:35:38 UTC
Dracvlad wrote:
Remiel Pollard wrote:
Dracvlad wrote:
Meaningless words from a meaningless nobody


Uhuh, I've been playing with a single account since 2012. You don't have to believe it, because once again, you are a nobody who doesn't matter to anybody. There are enough people in the game who do matter that know this is true that I feel no need to convince you, only the people that might read your bullshit and be misled by it. One might even mistake you for a CCP shill trying to convince people to hand over more of their money unecessarily, but only briefly before remembering you're a nobody who just isn't good enough to work with CCP. I'm not pushing for people to have one account, I'm just calling out your bullshit claim that the game can't be played with just one. I'm not the only one who does just fine with one account though, vladdy boy, so you once again do little more than expatiate complete bullshit and subsequently demonstrate your lack of understanding of EVE Online, as usual. Thank you, come again.


You do need to calm down, did the threat of legal action from those Scientologists really get you that worked up, and you have never calmed down since?

So when people play with one account like I did for two years and those around me had two, three or even more accounts I am at a massive disadvantage am I not? My statement is that Eve has always been pay to win and having the ability to pay for more than one account is effectively paying to win, the OP asked to even that up a bit by allowing him to run an Alpha account alongside his Omega clone which is a fair point.

That you state rather self pompously that you have one account as if it means anything when the majority of PvP players have multiple accounts makes no real difference, the majority of people that one plays against in Eve have multiple accounts, or at least the ones who matter do. I for one would be very happy to restrict Eve to one account only, I guess you would not!


Think you both need to walk away, nobody looks good here Blink

(enjoying it all tho)
Salvos Rhoska
#89 - 2016-11-22 19:33:42 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Jenn aSide:

So many vitriolic hooks and barbs...
Why you want to hurt my feelings :(

A) I do not expect rote agreement. If I did, I would only say things that everyone can agree with (if such a thing exists)
B) "Getting" it was in reference to a number of other posters who did not understand the underlying concenpt I was talking about.
C) This lack of understanding is evidenced not by their lack of agreement, but by their kneejerk reaction and/or avoidance of the issue in their responses.
D) I was not aware Alphas can use faction items. This seems a stupid and incongruous decision, but nevermind that now.
E) My point was to explore/discuss a perspective on the nature of equity between a free and paid service, not to whine or demand anything.
F) I dont care, either way. As it stands, my only use for Alphas atm is to setup as many of them as I can be bothered to login to update skill ques on for whichever future purpose.

I still stand on the validity of my argument, but I concede that is not how CCP chose to rationalize their decision.
I had considered the possible repercussions (albeit I was not aware Alphas can use Faction items), but found them largely inconsequential for the following reasons:
- Regulation is possible by requiring both to have the same email registration.
-Paying clients, pay. Free Alphas, dont. It is rational that a paid account can also use free services. This has been discussed by from both sides.
-Barring this new info on Alphas being able to use Faction items, I found Alpha account potential to be largely inconsequential.
-Eve is, imo, best played with atleast 2 accounts simultaneously inorder to leverage capacity into accessing more content, and also creating more content. This is my subjective view. Some have stated they prefer one account. So be it. Nobody is forcing them to use 2+, nor to use the Omega +1 Alpha solution I proposed. They can fly solo to their hearts content.
-I find the above is especially true considering the proliferation of multi-account players in EVE.
-The equity would be the same for both new and old players, on Omega. Both receive the same simultaneous Alpha. This is less useful to established pkayers, cos Alphas are pretty crap. It is, however, a tremendous boon for newer and less established paying players.

By all means, we can discuss this. But the barbs, hooks, vitriol are not constructive or necessary.
Vortexo VonBrenner
Doomheim
#90 - 2016-11-22 19:46:50 UTC
Rayit wrote:
Wow. I thought the toxic reputation that the Eve community has was just a running joke.

Don't make suggestions people. You're being entitled, narrow minded and should just shut up.

What you may not realise is that the OP's "suggestion" is entitled (wants free stuff without considering the effects that would have on the game) is narrow minded (devs considered the issue and publicly addressed it long ago) and well...perhaps...

If you consider this bad, might I suggest you evaluate your hardness vs. softness level?

Welcome to the internet and welcome to EvE.




Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#91 - 2016-11-22 19:50:10 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Jenn aSide:

So many vitriolic hooks and barbs...
Why you want to hurt my feelings :(

A) I do not expect rote agreement. If I did, I would only say things that everyone can agree with (if such a thing exists)
B) "Getting" it was in reference to a number of other posters who did not understand the underlying concenpt I was talking about.
C) This lack of understanding is evidenced not by their lack of agreement, but by their kneejerk reaction and/or avoidance of the issue in their responses.
D) I was not aware Alphas can use faction items. This seems a stupid and incongruous decision, but nevermind that now.
E) My point was to explore/discuss a perspective on the nature of equity between a free and paid service, not to whine or demand anything.
F) I dont care, either way. As it stands, my only use for Alphas atm is to setup as many of them as I can be bothered to login to update skill ques on for whichever future purpose.


I refer to that poster as Jenn a'Snide with good reason... Big smile

I certainly understood what you were getting at, but what you have to understand is that the existing easy kill player base do not want the prey players to have something that will enable them to avoid expensive losses by being able to scout themselves with a cheap alpha clone. That is the reason for the knee jerk reaction, this would threaten their easy kills and ability to laugh at people who can't afford more than one account... It is human nature of people who want easy stuff and hate challenges, a challenge is for other people not them. And that is a large segment of the Eve player base I am sad to say, though it looks like I can give credit to Keno Skir as not being one of them which is good to see.

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp

Jenn aSide
Shinigami Miners
Already Replaced.
#92 - 2016-11-22 20:11:51 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
Jenn aSide:

So many vitriolic hooks and barbs...
Why you want to hurt my feelings :(


That's a foolish way to think, Can't speak for anyone else, but i don't care about your feelings, I don't even know you. Any word I say is said because it's necessary , not because it makes you feel something.

Quote:

E) My point was to explore/discuss a perspective on the nature of equity between a free and paid service, not to whine or demand
anything.


Then this means you don't know how to communicate. Your repeated statement of "my argument is valid" (when this is something for others to decide) is a very clear indicator of this.


Quote:

I still stand on the validity of my argument, but I concede that is not how CCP chose to rationalize their decision.
I had considered the possible repercussions (albeit I was not aware Alphas can use Faction items), but found them largely inconsequential for the following reasons:
- Regulation is possible by requiring both to have the same email registration.
-Paying clients, pay. Free Alphas, dont. It is rational that a paid account can also use free services. This has been discussed by from both sides.
-Barring this new info on Alphas being able to use Faction items, I found Alpha account potential to be largely inconsequential.
-Eve is, imo, best played with atleast 2 accounts simultaneously inorder to leverage capacity into accessing more content, and also creating more content. This is my subjective view. Some have stated they prefer one account. So be it. Nobody is forcing them to use 2+, nor to use the Omega +1 Alpha solution I proposed. They can fly solo to their hearts content.
-I find the above is especially true considering the proliferation of multi-account players in EVE.
-The equity would be the same for both new and old players, on Omega. Both receive the same simultaneous Alpha. This is less useful to established pkayers, cos Alphas are pretty crap. It is, however, a tremendous boon for newer and less established paying players.

By all means, we can discuss this. But the barbs, hooks, vitriol are not constructive or necessary.


You haven't seen vitriol. What you've seen is annoyance, the same annoyance you generated the last time you were here.

Who is talking about faction items except the drones? Faction items don't mean anything, my own example of a 'pet' Vexor clean up alt requires nothing better than best name t1 gear. Hell, t1 drones would be fine for the purpose.

The reason why so many of us told CCP no to multiboxing alphas was because (unlike you) we know what we WOULD do with a few alt, and are honest enough to say so, and honest enough to be able to say that we know this would turn into a bad thing. The current way (ie "if you want to multibox, you can but at a cost) is more reasonable and fair for everyone.

So even though a few alpha alt would help me by giving me a vexor alt to sweep away small ships making my PVEing more efficient for no cost after buying the vexor, mods and drones, as well as giving me a low cost 'sacrifice ship' I could use in null sec to kill raiders who try to kill me while I am ratting, I know it's all a bad idea, because EVe is bigger than my individual wallet concerns.

If you weren't so selfish as to want something for free (and you can hide behind "I was just making an argument about value" all you like), you'd see why so many of us and CCP think the idea of multiboxing alphas is wrong for the game.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#93 - 2016-11-22 20:12:40 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
...E) My point was to explore/discuss a perspective on the nature of equity between a free and paid service, not to whine or demand anything...
The parity between the paid and free services have been explored. Specifically in noting that the full use of the free service is allowed to you with all the limitations associated with that service.

Allowing an Alpha without cost to be logged in beside an omega may or may not be personally desirable, but either way that's very literally asking for more than what the limits of an alpha allow, as was the case with trial account before.

Simultaneous logins have always had a price point for additional logins equal to a paid account each. That has in no way changed. It isn't part of the free service either, and thus can't be an omission when moving from free to paid.
Salvos Rhoska
#94 - 2016-11-22 20:16:14 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
Vortexo VonBrenner wrote:
] entitled (wants free stuff without considering the effects that would have on the game)


The operative term here, is "free".

An Omega account is not free, in anyway, shape or form.

It is not rational that a paying client loses access to a free service, when they pay.
This has been argued that the payment upgrades a "free" service into a paid one for specific benefits.
I can see that. I get it.
But free, is free.
Expecting to be beneficiary of something that is free, is not u reasonable.
Certainly not "entitled". It is free, afterall.

It cannot be argued that something that is free to all, and in infinite abundance, as is Alpha, should suddenly not apply to a paying customer. Ofc CCP can line up their service however they want, but this does not change the nature of that which is free and that which is paid. This is largely academic, but is valid and sound in and of itself.

The rational solution would be to include an Alpha (as free) with each paid Omega account.
CCP has chosen to view this issue differently, cos CCP, perhaps arguaby exploitation issues and due to pressure of opinion/argument (for whichever reason/motivation) by the community before this was finalized per its current state.



Dracovlad:

Yes, but we have already established that it is possible to create an Alpha for each Gate in the entire game (barring inconvenience and keeping them located ofc). The scouting "scare" is thus rendered largely moot.Alphas already mean there are an infinite potential for scouts throughout EVE, regardless of my suggestion.

They are ofc very crappy scouts, as my antagonists agree with. But therein lies a paradox in their logic. If they are so crappy scouts, then just use another Omega account as a better scout. The entire logic cascades to the point that all Omegas, in my proposal, will be able to fly a simultaneous Alpha (as having paid for omega, and still having access to an Alpha, but EVERYONE can fly an indefinate amount of Alpha as a scout anyways.

I wasnt around for the debates/feedback for this particular articulation of Alpha/Omega, and yes, I agree with you that there are ulterior motives at stake, rather than ones related to just the health of the game.

Anyways, it is what it is. We will see how EVE adjusts/granulates the Alpha/Omega situation.

Thanks for your feedback.
Cookie
Snakeoil Industries Ltd.
#95 - 2016-11-22 20:18:44 UTC
Everybody and his dog gets a 1-floor building to live in, for free.
You can, however, choose to build a second floor on top of it with your own funds.
Demanding another 1-floor building (because you just own a 2-floor one) is a bit off imo.
Salvos Rhoska
#96 - 2016-11-22 20:33:51 UTC  |  Edited by: Salvos Rhoska
There is articulation and distinction between free and paid.

For your example:

Everyone gets a 1 floor building for free.
They infact can get an infinite amount of 1 floor buildings, only one of which they can use at once.

But when you PAY to build/inhabit 2nd floor in a specific building, suddenly you lose the right to inhabit the 1st floor of that same building/account.

This doesnt make sense, cos all 1 floor buildings are free, for everyone.
Yes, you get the advantage of the 2nd floor when you PAY, but you irrationally lose access to the 1st floor of that building, which are still free for everyone else that hasnt paid, and in infinite supply.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#97 - 2016-11-22 20:35:41 UTC
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
...
Dracovlad:

Yes, but we have already established that it is possible to create an Alpha for each Gate in the entire game (barring inconvenience and keeping them located ofc). The scouting "scare" is thus rendered largely moot.Alphas already mean there are an infinite potential for scouts throughout EVE, regardless of my suggestion.

They are ofc very crappy scouts, as my antagonists agree with. But therein lies a paradox in their logic. If they are so crappy scouts, then just use another Omega account as a better scout. The entire logic cascades to the point that all Omegas, in my proposal, will be able to fly a simultaneous Alpha (as having paid for omega, and still having access to an Alpha, but EVERYONE can fly an indefinate amount of Alpha as a scout anyways.

...

That's a somewhat less than genuine analysis. The paradox you're trying to create lies in the logic that all alpha scouts are equal between what you're advocating and the current state of affairs.

The problem there is that the value of an alpha account isn't realistically the same. A scout you can move and have intel you can simultaneously act on is clearly superior to one that you can only use by eliminating your ability to act with any other character and lose the ability to use for intel gathering in order to act on intel already gathered.

Now to the point about just using an omega, there is a price point for that. What you're trying to do is remove the price point for that function by suggesting the only gains are the skill/ship use abilities of an Alpha vs an Omega. As I illustrated, that's not the case. Realistically specific ships/skill are not even the main benefit of a scout. Simultaneous action is.

And that's exactly what your asking to be made free despite not being a part of the free package as used by paying or non-paying players.
ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
#98 - 2016-11-22 20:35:50 UTC
Quote:
It is not rational that a paying client loses access to a free service, when they pay

I think that this is the line of logic that many of us take issue with.

When you upgrade an account, you lose nothing.
Literally, nothing.
In fact, you gain quite a bit (access to more skills, mods, etc).

What you actually asking for it, "I want more free stuff... why am I not allowed to have more free stuff?"


Jenn has already pointed it out why you are not allowed to have a second free account.

Frankly, I am of the opinion that secondary accounts should be banned outright for all players. No more alt character shenanigans and force players to rely on each other more than empty characters.
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#99 - 2016-11-22 20:37:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Tyberius Franklin
Salvos Rhoska wrote:
There is articulation and distinction between free and paid.

For your example:

Everyone gets a 1 floor building for free.
They infact can get an infinite amount of 1 floor buildings, only one of which they can use at once.

But when you PAY to build/inhabit 2nd floor in a specific building, suddenly you lose the right to inhabit the 1st floor of that same building/account.

This doesnt make sense, cos all 1 floor buildings are free, for everyone.
Yes, you get the advantage of the 2nd floor when you PAY, but it doesnt make sense you lose access to the 1st floor, which is free for everyone and in infinite supply.
Except you don't. You still get the first floor of the same house. You're asking to use one of the other 1 story houses at the same time as the 2 story house.

If we were barred as omega accounts from using T1 Frigates/Destroyers/Cruisers or associated T1/meta mods you would have a case there, but I retain all alpha abilities on this account in addition to the Omega ones.
Dracvlad
Taishi Combine
#100 - 2016-11-22 20:46:39 UTC
ShahFluffers wrote:
Frankly, I am of the opinion that secondary accounts should be banned outright for all players. No more alt character shenanigans and force players to rely on each other more than empty characters.


Good on you sir!

When the going gets tough the Gankers get their CSM rep to change mechanics in their favour.

Blocked: Teckos Pech, Sonya Corvinus, baltec1, Shae Tadaruwa, Wander Prian, Daichi Yamato, Jonah Gravenstein, Merin Ryskin, Linus Gorp