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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

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Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#421 - 2016-10-12 06:12:37 UTC
Agfro Er wrote:

It's true that WH corps can move their assets out of system and leave them isolated at a station they wont be able to visit again until they're lucky enough to. It's also true we can compress our ore and haul it out too. But a new series of endless hauling, on-top of regular fuel acquisition, and long trips away from home system are not the play style options I was hoping for with these structures. Especially after all the effort of moving these assets in and defending them.

Low class wormholes don't generally have difficulties accessing empire space. Especially ones selected as a home by an industrialist.

The main advantage to building in your hole is installation costs are extremely low, and the materials for things you want to build for use have a lower volume than the finished products, resulting in less overall hauling to as you say take you away from the gameplay you enjoy. Your specific operation does not need to be the most isk efficient compared to an NPC station in empire to be viable.

You, specifically, are trying to minimize you haul time, maximize your hole time. Not spend an extra couple hours hauling ships in to save a couple mil in build cost. There is nothing wrong with this, you just have to figure out what makes most sense for your particular operation. If you don't think things are in a better place for wormholes, when I lived there I had to haul my T3 hull and subsystems out into K-space and dock in a station just to assemble the ship and fly it back into the hole for use.

The post I replied to, was complaining about the lack of an available npc station to research at. Quite simply, in terms of wormholes, your best bet will probably be to avoid setting up research infrastructure if possible. The volume of bringing in BPC's compared to ice products for fuel alone is negligible. You also do not have the market to supply that requires mass production. Unless you are taking the finished products to empire - in which case you already have a massive volume of hauling both in and out.

Agfro Er wrote:
We never operated our industry for profit. It was a fun casual option for us when we weren't busy blapping things. I am prepared and plan to move all BPOs into NPC stations and give them to an alt. For the time being, ECs appear logistically impossible to manage.

EC's are not the solution you are looking for. They are for people coprorations who turn over billions on a daily basis.

What you will want, is a Manufacturing Plant service to be installed in your existing Astrahus / Fortizar, and only online it when actually building something to save fuel. Since you are not the kind of person that keeps 90++ production lines running 24/7, you should not have a problem keeping a sufficient stock of BPC's. For that matter, by the time the pos is gone, the inexpensive (and therefore, disposable) ones you have now should be fully researched. They do not even need to be copied. You can build directly from them. Any future blueprints in the disposable category can be researched in empire before bringing them in.
Mark Marconi
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#422 - 2016-10-12 07:07:28 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:

EC's are not the solution you are looking for. They are for people coprorations who turn over billions on a daily basis.

I can just see Obi Wan Kanobi waving his hand at the solo and small group industrialists going "These are not the space structures you are looking for. Move along."

The CSM gets in the way of CCP communicating properly with the players of this game.

After all we are not just players, we are customers.

Time for the CSM to be disbanded.
Urziel99
Multiplex Gaming
Tactical Narcotics Team
#423 - 2016-10-12 07:21:01 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Vald Tegor wrote:
You are back to step one of figuring out what the most profitable arrangement will be for your particular operation. Remaining a solo industrialist will not be a foregone conclusion.

Most of us already know what the most profitable arrangement is, and it's returning to NPC stations. We're trying to avoid that, and the fact that people are pushing that as a good option seem to forget that NPC stations offer absolute, perfect security for assets (as long as the person holding them isn't utterly foolish). We're trying to argue for a way to keep ourselves profitable without do that, so we can stay in space, where our assets are at risk, as opposed to using an NPC station, where there's no risk at all.

It seems counter-intuitive to drive high-value assets into an NPC station, but that's exactly what's going to be happening for the small groups.

Vald Tegor wrote:

Why do you not want to play a multiplayer game with others, now that you will finally be able to?

I dare say that most of us are already being social in the game. For many of the small-time and solo industrialists, it's something we do on alts to be able to make ISK that we use on our mains. We interact with our corp on our mains, we're flying out in space on our mains, and we socialize with the game on our mains. We don't socialize with corps on our alts because they're alts that we spend minimal time on in order to spend our time with our mates on our mains.



Well, this guy gets it. Just so sad so many others don't seem to.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#424 - 2016-10-12 07:58:37 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Sorry Pedro but you might want to go "read" the blog.
Pos's are going nowhere for the medium term ( a good while yet), Pos's once setup are more efficient than even the best set up EC and far cheaper to run, easier to defend, cheaper to replace (worst case your pos dies to a rare highsec wardec), cheaper initial outlay (by at least 100% over a medium EC).

Cost (in time and isk) vs Reward - There is as of November NO reason to change what you do now for your manufacturing needs.
EC's are to expensive to buy and maintain, too vulnerable, too limited in output options - for not enough return.
For what these things can do and how vulnerable to destruction they are - They should be as cheap or cheaper than current pos's.
Alternately - Just never remove pos's so manufacturers don't have to risk going broke because Devs have no idea about how Eve is played.
For shites sake, CCP is bleeding subscriptions then Devs come up with new ways to encourage more to quit, how fukin smart is that.
I did read the blog, and am aware they aren't going anywhere for a while.

But the time is fast approaching. Feature parity is closer than you think. Outpost deployment is being frozen already in December and from the CSM minutes they are working hard to get to the point as soon a they can to delete the hated POS code.

CCP is correct to go slow and ease them out of the game only once everything has a replacement. But manufacturing is one of the major uses for POSes and we can tick that off the list, leaving just the upcoming Drilling Platform and perhaps some form of the player star gates which could be out by the spring which will be around the time they start phasing them out. Enjoy your POSes while you still can.

CCP has no choice but to go slow - Forcing players to pay more than double what they do now for less functionality, more risk and less return - How fast do you want to see the next drop in numbers playing eve?

Most games aim for highest number of logins - CCP decided, going for lowest amount we can make the most out of, was a far better idea. So, cost to do anything in the game keeps going up in stupid increments, more players lose interest (or just find they can't compete anymore) - And quit.


CCP needs to start looking after its PAYING customers, or keep losing them.

This plus the Orca changes, could see another 15 accounts unsubbed by Xmas. I'll give it a couple of months to see how badly my operation is affected.
I'm not threatening CCP, 15 subs is nothing to them in the scheme of things (but it is to me, it means even less reason to login my other characters)
No you can'y have my stuff - I'll trash it all and biomass the characters before I'll give a lazy selfish nerd my stuff.




You're talking about the Orca changes that are so awful, all of the affordable Orcas have been sold out and the market price in The Forge is now around 1.5 billion, right?

Yeah, if CCP doesn't recognize how horrible and unpopular those changes are, they're going to lose players in DROVES. Roll
I never said the Orca changes were bad, I said they will have an adverse affect on my play style by cutting down on my hourly productivity.

NB; you will likely see, most of the Orca's sold recently will be relisted in a month at far higher prices - My trade alt has 3 waiting for the changes to go live, I expect to make a nice profit.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Sgt Ocker
What Corp is it
#425 - 2016-10-12 08:14:53 UTC
Urziel99 wrote:
Winter Archipelago wrote:
Vald Tegor wrote:
You are back to step one of figuring out what the most profitable arrangement will be for your particular operation. Remaining a solo industrialist will not be a foregone conclusion.

Most of us already know what the most profitable arrangement is, and it's returning to NPC stations. We're trying to avoid that, and the fact that people are pushing that as a good option seem to forget that NPC stations offer absolute, perfect security for assets (as long as the person holding them isn't utterly foolish). We're trying to argue for a way to keep ourselves profitable without do that, so we can stay in space, where our assets are at risk, as opposed to using an NPC station, where there's no risk at all.

It seems counter-intuitive to drive high-value assets into an NPC station, but that's exactly what's going to be happening for the small groups.

Vald Tegor wrote:

Why do you not want to play a multiplayer game with others, now that you will finally be able to?

I dare say that most of us are already being social in the game. For many of the small-time and solo industrialists, it's something we do on alts to be able to make ISK that we use on our mains. We interact with our corp on our mains, we're flying out in space on our mains, and we socialize with the game on our mains. We don't socialize with corps on our alts because they're alts that we spend minimal time on in order to spend our time with our mates on our mains.



Well, this guy gets it. Just so sad so many others don't seem to.

Including Devs..

You would think after all this time Devs would have at least some knowledge of how their player base plays the game.

My opinions are mine.

  If you don't like them or disagree with me that's OK.- - - - - - Just don't bother Hating - I don't care

It really is getting harder and harder to justify $23 a month for each sub.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#426 - 2016-10-12 08:48:29 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
Vald Tegor wrote:

EC's are not the solution you are looking for. They are for people coprorations who turn over billions on a daily basis.

I can just see Obi Wan Kanobi waving his hand at the solo and small group industrialists going "These are not the space structures you are looking for. Move along."

Definition required

Throwing my 10/10 Caracal BPO into build for 24 hours, in an unbonused outpost, is 12 runs. This has a material cost of approximately 120 million ISK. For a single production line.

If you're not cycling 10 times that value in materials a day, can you go so far as to be called an industrialist requiring deployment of a personal structure?

There's people that "build a player house" and pay the rent because they like having it. They tinker in it making random things for fun. Then there are industrialists, who are doing it in an optimized way to maximize the income per blueprint / production line. They are not the same thing.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#427 - 2016-10-12 08:50:10 UTC
Althalus Stenory wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:

How are you "entrusting" them with your BPOs? They literally CANNOT steal them under the new structure model, which is what makes public structures feasible in the first place. You can't even lose them if the structure is destroyed (WH space aside).

With asset safety, you'll only recover the BPO, and it's not what's "in risk" (even if you pay to recover it), but it's everything around if the jobs work as they currently are: material components used for jobs. You'll lose them in many case you cannot "choose": structure offline, destruction, access rights and trust around these.
I mean choose, because when you / your corp own a structure, you are able (at least, more than if you don't own it, compared to EC) to deal with your job if you are at war, attacked etc. You'll lose isks too, for sure, but it'll be your choice between "trying to keep the job running" and "stop it now and be sure you'll not have any problems"

Angela Zelin wrote:
There is risk involved in doing things in eve. If you want higher rewards, higher risk comes with that.
Where are those "higher rewards", because there are none with the current structures bonuses. (I'm not considering 0.8% material bonus compared to POS is a "higher reward" considering the price behind and the trust required).

This mechanics works really well with citadels, but it won't with EC, because currently it's not "switching from POS to structures", it's "forcing people to renounce to some... way to play".
You cannot use "everyone's structures" everytime, and especially everywhere. I don't believe everypeople in 0.0 will have "shared" EC. neither will those who live in WH.

I think the problem with POSes will be fixed once CCP removes POSes. Then you will have good balance: NPC station (secure, lower profits) vs EC (risk, higher profits).

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
DiDDleR
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#428 - 2016-10-12 09:24:19 UTC
A few more things :)

"Build all the things"...

A number of posters are suggesting that small scale industrialists don't need or shouldn't run their own facility with the incoming changes. My argument is this is a sandbox and everyone should be able to play the game how they like, it feels as though the existing POS functionality is being entirely removed and broken up into a number of structures making industry more logistically challenging.

Time for something more constructive...

1. Will we be able to compress and reprocess ore in the new engineering complexes?

2. I've noticed in the dev blog that there is some confusion over build materials for the RAITARU class medium engineering complex around "1 x Structure Reprocessing Plant", which has also been incorrectly named as "Structure Reprocessing Bay" -

In the description section the build materials are -

Structure Construction Parts 1
Structure Hangar Array 1
Structure Storage Bay 1
Structure Laboratory 1
Structure Factory 1
Structure Repair Facility 1
Structure Reprocessing Bay 1
Structure Docking Bay 1
Structure Office Center 1

[url]http://i.imgur.com/UmqCWq3l.jpg[/url]

However in the "The Spreadsheets You’ve All Been Waiting For! (Lots of Numbers)" the build materials are different -

Structure Construction Parts 1
Structure Hangar Array 1
Structure Storage Bay 1
Structure Laboratory 1
Structure Factory 1
Structure Repair Facility 1
Structure Reprocessing Plant 0
Structure Docking Bay 1
Structure Office Center 1

[url]http://content.eveonline.com/www/newssystem/media/70592/1/Engineering_Complexes_-_Build_materials.jpg[/url]
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#429 - 2016-10-12 10:06:07 UTC
DiDDleR wrote:


1. Will we be able to compress and reprocess ore in the new engineering complexes?


Sure, if you fit the reprocessing service and fuel it properly.

I'm my own NPC alt.
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#430 - 2016-10-12 10:10:30 UTC
Mark Marconi wrote:
Vald Tegor wrote:

EC's are not the solution you are looking for. They are for people coprorations who turn over billions on a daily basis.

I can just see Obi Wan Kanobi waving his hand at the solo and small group industrialists going "These are not the space structures you are looking for. Move along."

Well...
There is lots of things in EVE you cannot do solo or in 'small group'. For many things you MUST BE part of bigger and stronger group. Looks at Keepstars. Do you think you could have it with your 'small group of players'? Lol

But for industry it is somehow should be different? Why? I think that is ok have reasons for people to group. Be it more complex stuff of higher profits.

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#431 - 2016-10-12 10:27:23 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:

Definition required

Throwing my 10/10 Caracal BPO into build for 24 hours, in an unbonused outpost, is 12 runs. This has a material cost of approximately 120 million ISK. For a single production line.

If you're not cycling 10 times that value in materials a day, can you go so far as to be called an industrialist requiring deployment of a personal structure?

There's people that "build a player house" and pay the rent because they like having it. They tinker in it making random things for fun. Then there are industrialists, who are doing it in an optimized way to maximize the income per blueprint / production line. They are not the same thing.

Now do the same with oh, a Catalyst BPO. Or how about T1 DCU's. Picking an expensive item (If admittedly not one of the most expensive) then saying you should be building with all of your lines on said expensive item is not a good benchmark.
And remind me how many lines you can get on a single character. Running a stable of 10 alts should not be considered standard ever, nor required and is in fact indicative of terrible industry mechanics
permion
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#432 - 2016-10-12 11:52:07 UTC
March rabbit wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Vald Tegor wrote:

EC's are not the solution you are looking for. They are for people coprorations who turn over billions on a daily basis.

I can just see Obi Wan Kanobi waving his hand at the solo and small group industrialists going "These are not the space structures you are looking for. Move along."

Well...
There is lots of things in EVE you cannot do solo or in 'small group'. For many things you MUST BE part of bigger and stronger group. Looks at Keepstars. Do you think you could have it with your 'small group of players'? Lol

But for industry it is somehow should be different? Why? I think that is ok have reasons for people to group. Be it more complex stuff of higher profits.


Because for the past decade CCP has punished their players for being an industrialist in a group. Core mechanics have made it so that if you were building somewhere besides a station you were unable to work with someone because of trust/risk issues. More recent updates have made it so that you're severely punished for even having one other person working in a system.

If you look at PvPer they've pushed the envelope at number/group requirements. experimenting with super high EHP structures, core mechanics rewarding N+1, and similar.

The extent of these updates are comparable to adding friendly fire(or even interception but no damage) to rail/beams/missiles if it's ray/flight path touches an ally, and adding slight spectrum leakage to Ewar modules. Essentially all the N+1 mechanics that players have been rewarded for in the past are now gone, and that part of the player base would be just as in arms.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#433 - 2016-10-12 12:27:47 UTC
Mara Rinn wrote:
Why are you going to need an XL to match the capacity of a small POS?


Because the POS is OP on the cost/benefit scale and CCP is correcting that problem
Skia Aumer
Planetary Harvesting and Processing LLC
#434 - 2016-10-12 12:28:12 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Here's a serious question I have for the "small scale industrialist":

Why did you choose this path?
Why do you want to remain on it?

My feeling is that you are a product of a broken game mechanic that is now being fixed. Lets follow the logic here.

I want to mass produce stuff for the market, because i like making things and it's profitable.
I want to maximize my profits, therefore I need to put up my own tower.
I need to put up my own tower. Corp roles and security suck, therefore i need my own corp to get the roles for using it and control access to ensure my safety.
I'm in my own corp with just my alts, therefore I am a small scale solo industrialist.

Does that sound about right?

These statements are currently TRUE. Once poses are removed, all but the first one will be false. You are back to step one of figuring out what the most profitable arrangement will be for your particular operation. Remaining a solo industrialist will not be a foregone conclusion.

So why are you drawing conclusions based on FALSE statements like
"I need my personal corp to control access to the facility so my stuff doesn't get stolen"
"I need my own building facility, so i need to pay to fuel it, so I need x production volume to cover MY fuel cost"
"I need my own building facility, therefore I need to be able to defend it"

Why do you not want to play a multiplayer game with others, now that you will finally be able to?

Very well said. You folks need to rethink what you're doing from the ground up. The winter is co... I mean the changes are imminent.

With that, I'd like to address the question that keep worrying a lot of people here:
"Industry index drives us apart. This change assumes we start working together. Is CCP schizophrenic or something?"

To answer that question, lets take a look back. Remember the design plan for the industry revamp? Along with industry index, which induces centrifugal force, there were "teams" that were meant to aggregate. It should've created industry clusters. This pattern is a very interesting one, it allows a healthy multiplayer gameplay without dogpiling everyone to the suburbs of Jita. But the implementation of this plan stumbled and "teams" were discontinued.

Now, we have this aggregative force back. It took a while, many have forgotten the original idea and got used to a half-backed feature. Free your mind, embrace what is coming and use it for your fun and profit.
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#435 - 2016-10-12 12:32:16 UTC
Babbet Bunny wrote:
Just for reference on how much indexes matter

A comparison of ME research on an Archon going from 9 to 10

0.1% index blank no bonus system 34m (34,512,709.71 ISK)

1.3% index system would cost 443m (443,499,237.02 ISK)

10.9% index (highest system in EVE) would cost 3.8B (3,851,935,708.95 ISK)

This is why I don't want to share the system, much less the facility, I am doing research in.



Remove indexes may help this work better.


And people in Saisio: Why are you pouring ISK out the window???



It's almost like the removal of the POS causing industry currently being done at them to enter the index system will actually cause the index system to work like CCP intends, pushing people further and further away from hubs and looking for opportunities to lower their own costs through strategic decisions regarding how and where to build.
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#436 - 2016-10-12 13:09:08 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Obil Que wrote:


It's almost like the removal of the POS causing industry currently being done at them to enter the index system will actually cause the index system to work like CCP intends, pushing people further and further away from hubs and looking for opportunities to lower their own costs through strategic decisions regarding how and where to build.


Industry performed at a POS is not (and never has been) exempt from system index costs, so if you kind of feel like everyone is looking at you as if you were speaking in tongues, that may be why.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/
March rabbit
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#437 - 2016-10-12 13:18:28 UTC
permion wrote:
March rabbit wrote:
Mark Marconi wrote:
Vald Tegor wrote:

EC's are not the solution you are looking for. They are for people coprorations who turn over billions on a daily basis.

I can just see Obi Wan Kanobi waving his hand at the solo and small group industrialists going "These are not the space structures you are looking for. Move along."

Well...
There is lots of things in EVE you cannot do solo or in 'small group'. For many things you MUST BE part of bigger and stronger group. Looks at Keepstars. Do you think you could have it with your 'small group of players'? Lol

But for industry it is somehow should be different? Why? I think that is ok have reasons for people to group. Be it more complex stuff of higher profits.


Because for the past decade CCP has punished their players for being an industrialist in a group. Core mechanics have made it so that if you were building somewhere besides a station you were unable to work with someone because of trust/risk issues. More recent updates have made it so that you're severely punished for even having one other person working in a system.

If you look at PvPer they've pushed the envelope at number/group requirements. experimenting with super high EHP structures, core mechanics rewarding N+1, and similar.

The extent of these updates are comparable to adding friendly fire(or even interception but no damage) to rail/beams/missiles if it's ray/flight path touches an ally, and adding slight spectrum leakage to Ewar modules. Essentially all the N+1 mechanics that players have been rewarded for in the past are now gone, and that part of the player base would be just as in arms.

Well.... It looks like CCP finally fixing lots of things.

However i agree that CCP should make something especial for ECs to improve situation with grouping people around. I don't like industry index but something like reduced effect of it to jobs on EC will help (similar to Jump Fatique and transport ships).

The Mittani: "the inappropriate drunked joke"
Brown Pathfinder
Black Spot on Parchment
#438 - 2016-10-12 13:18:54 UTC
Just curious when will the new structures hit the test server? Smile
Obil Que
Star Explorers
Solis Tenebris
#439 - 2016-10-12 13:20:51 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Obil Que wrote:


It's almost like the removal of the POS causing industry currently being done at them to enter the index system will actually cause the index system to work like CCP intends, pushing people further and further away from hubs and looking for opportunities to lower their own costs through strategic decisions regarding how and where to build.


Industry performed at a POS is not (and never has been) exempt from system index costs, so if you kind of feel like everyone is looking at you as if you were speaking in tongues, that may be why.


Given how many people are up in arms about taking down their POSes, either we'll have plenty more industry entering the system in more localized ECs or NPC stations or the rest of us will just have less competition
SurrenderMonkey
State Protectorate
Caldari State
#440 - 2016-10-12 13:58:26 UTC
Obil Que wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Obil Que wrote:


It's almost like the removal of the POS causing industry currently being done at them to enter the index system will actually cause the index system to work like CCP intends, pushing people further and further away from hubs and looking for opportunities to lower their own costs through strategic decisions regarding how and where to build.


Industry performed at a POS is not (and never has been) exempt from system index costs, so if you kind of feel like everyone is looking at you as if you were speaking in tongues, that may be why.


Given how many people are up in arms about taking down their POSes, either we'll have plenty more industry entering the system in more localized ECs or NPC stations or the rest of us will just have less competition


...Industry performed at a POS is already not exempt from the index system. In fact, nothing is. 100% of industry is already in the "system", so how do you imagine we'll have plenty more entering the system?

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/