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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

First post First post First post
Author
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#401 - 2016-10-12 00:41:13 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
One thing I really don't like, and haven't seen a remark on yet, is lumping in copying with the ME/TE module instead of invention.

This means you can have a fairly economical single-service pure research (ME/TE/Copy) EC, but if you want to run invention, you either have to buy BPCs, or run two services.

Ignoring manufacturing for a moment, and looking at JUST research as a for-profit exercise, I really don't think the fuel cost of an invention service could be justified when, instead, I could just install the one service and spend 15 blocks an hour making perfect BPOs and copies with a lot less hassle and half the overhead.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#402 - 2016-10-12 01:28:00 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:

Will it be true for using public facilities?
Will it be true for a number of solo industrialists banding together to share the costs and benefits?


I have several concerns with the use of public facilities that seem to be repeatedly glossed over:

1. The more people using a facility, the higher the system's Index is going to be, and the less value will be found in that facility. Look at Jita as an example of what happens when you get a high Index cost: the Index cost can knock out a quarter to a third of the profit on an item compared to a system with a much lower Index.

2. The more people using a facility, the more desirable it will be to kill, as there will be more materials in use. You can use mercenaries up to a point, but eventually, if the facility becomes attractive enough (something easy to see thanks to the visibility of the Index cost), they're going to be wardec'ed pretty much constantly, and having mercenaries available at every vulnerability time is going to burn away significant amounts of profit, even with many people adding to the pot. People say "defend them yourself" but they gloss over that most people don't want to be spending that much time defending, especially when there's no guarantee that any action will even happen. I'll be damned and quit before I spend my time in the game being repeatedly blueballed again, and if the typical highsec wardec groups smell any hint of resistance at all, that's all that's going to happen.

3. You're at the whims of the facility owner, and if they decide to pull out without any warning, it doesn't matter if you're at 1% or 99% completion of a job, you lose all the progress and materials with it. My lines are generally going for a week at a time, and each one will have around a hundred mil on it. Risking 4 bil across 4 characters to get a 3.6% material savings isn't feasible. Losing those materials would wipe out my net profits for close to three months, all for something that I have zero control over. At least with a war, there's a warm-up period to allow time to get mercenaries set up and, if you're lucky, you can hold off on starting any new lines that complete.

4. You're still shuffling goods around, and it can be quite often, but now instead of moving them between Arrays inside the same POS, you're moving them between facilities that may not be anywhere near each other (see point 1 for why they're unlikely to be in the same system). Not every facility is going to have every set-up that you need, and the ones that do are going to be extremely attractive to people who can't afford to run their own facility. At this point, see points 1 and 2 for how that becomes a problem.

A person can choose to only work in the facility by a known entity, but that goes back to the first point, where the local Index is going to be very high, followed up by point 2 as it becomes a bigger and bigger lot pinata of in-use materials as more people flock to it for the believed safety of it.

Public facilities aren't the be-all, end-all that people are making them out to be, and considering it's going to take 4-5 Mediums, 2-3 Larges, or one XL to emulate what is currently done at a Small POS (and roughly double that if you get into a Medium POS), this change is going to push small groups out of the running once arrays lose their bonuses. They'll be relegated to NPC stations if they want anything more than short-term usability.

Vald Tegor wrote:
What if it made sense for them to be in your main corp, provide it with benefits of their products and enjoy the security provided by your mates?

We're a small low-class wormhole group. We do PvP and have somewhat nomadic tendencies. We're not a part of an alliance, and we're not willing to join an alliance, either, because we've all been a part of nullsec at one point or another and we don't feel like subjecting ourselves to the politics of some egoist again.

So no, shoving my industry into my main corp isn't a feasible option.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#403 - 2016-10-12 01:35:53 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
HaubPlan1 Wads wrote:
HI all
Our corp has a small Faction POS that runs on 8 Fuels blocks/hour.
It does invention, ME, TE, and manufacturing of Teck II modules.

With this new system, 60 blocks/hr will be needed to do the same thing. Is that right?

If so.. it's not helping the small corps with reducing costs.

I would sure like to see an example of a small setup and what it would cost to run per hour.

Thanks


ccp is using these to "reward" large groups by locking gameplay like this away from smaller/newer ones

Think about this for a minute.

How hard is it for a miner to compress his ore for transport these days?
How hard is it to find a dirt cheap, public refinery?

Did the miner's costs and investment go up, requiring building defending and fueling a personal Astrahus? Or did they go down, no longer requiring a compression array, or indeed his own pos in the first place?

You're done producing, time to sell your wares. I guess this means you have to build a Fortizar in Perimeter now, keep it defended, and fuel the market service in order to save on broker fees and "remain competitive"?
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#404 - 2016-10-12 01:36:26 UTC
Why are you going to need an XL to match the capacity of a small POS?
Taylor Mill
Doomheim
#405 - 2016-10-12 02:12:11 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:

How hard is it for a miner to compress his ore for transport these days?
How hard is it to find a dirt cheap, public refinery?

Did the miner's costs and investment go up, requiring building defending and fueling a personal Astrahus? Or did they go down, no longer requiring a compression array, or indeed his own pos in the first place?

You're done producing, time to sell your wares. I guess this means you have to build a Fortizar in Perimeter now, keep it defended, and fuel the market service in order to save on broker fees and "remain competitive"?

It's a bad comparison to say this. It's stupid and what you compare is large in your price cost difference.

The fuel costs for compressing ores is 5 for an hour and the citadels take 25% off that. It's 3.75 fuel for one hour. One module for indy is 15 after EC discount. But you don't get full service with one module you need 3, so you have 45 fuel for an hour. You compare 3.75 to 45. They are 67.500.000 for compressing and 810.000.000 to run indy. If someone owe you 810.000.000 but pay you 67.500.000 it is OK because they are comparable? No.

Even if you say "but but but but you only need 1 service" because you don't know how to do indy and thing it's only building, not research or copy or invention, then cost is still 15 fuel for an hour. It makes 270.000.000 to the month. You give me 270.000.000 and I give you 67.500.000 twice. It is comparable to you once so twice means you are doing better!

I was going to make this chara a new indy to fill this account now I will rethink on it. A new chara will make a pos a good cost for me when I do indy in station with 2 but this ec is a bad choice. Maybe I will go to incursions? It is much safer and easier and ccp don't touch them.
Babbet Bunny
#406 - 2016-10-12 02:16:43 UTC
Just for reference on how much indexes matter

A comparison of ME research on an Archon going from 9 to 10

0.1% index blank no bonus system 34m (34,512,709.71 ISK)

1.3% index system would cost 443m (443,499,237.02 ISK)

10.9% index (highest system in EVE) would cost 3.8B (3,851,935,708.95 ISK)

This is why I don't want to share the system, much less the facility, I am doing research in.



Remove indexes may help this work better.


And people in Saisio: Why are you pouring ISK out the window???

Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#407 - 2016-10-12 02:25:16 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:

I have several concerns with the use of public facilities that seem to be repeatedly glossed over:


These are the issues that require thorough discussion to make sure it works in practice. I feel like too many people in the thread need to get over the idea of "I have to run my own after, because i run my own now" to join in on the discussion of how it will work a year from now.

A few ideas to poke at:

You can keep the index and loot value under control by having a limited number of members of the project with reasonable rates, while taxing the living hell out of everyone else, or denying access entirely. You could also have two or more sets of identical facilities in different systems. When the index spikes, you offline the service and shift to the next facility in the cycle. This keeps fuel costs down to one facility (set) running at a time. It will also make attackers go to a bit of effort to figure out which one actually has a potential loot drop right now, should they destroy it.

You can keep it down by actively shooting anyone else that is driving up your index in YOUR system with their own EC, and target large shipments into local stations. The high sec version of benefits of living in your space. This is all flowing into the design idea that's been going for years about empires losing control and capsuleers taking over.

You could theoretically put EC's up with low public tax rates in systems you know to have direct competitors production facilities. This will attract people and trash the index.

Running a public facility can be a profitable venture in and of itself. The owner need not have personal assets actually building there, or even be an industrialist in the first place. The high sec pvp corps that everyone seems so afraid of could themselves provide these as a profitable venture.

Public facilities will spike the index for sure. The usage will come in waves. As the index goes up, less people will continue using it. The index will go down. This will lead to a different kind of nomadic industry. One where you don't take the factory with you, but instead looking for the factory that makes sense for the next batch of jobs. Then shipping your bpc's and raw materials there instead. Just because you're a small time brewery doesn't mean you have to own a bottling plant, nor do you have to sign a 300 year contract with coca cola bottling co.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#408 - 2016-10-12 02:30:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Vald Tegor
Taylor Mill wrote:

The fuel costs for compressing ores is 5 for an hour and the citadels take 25% off that. It's 3.75 fuel for one hour. One module for indy is 15 after EC discount. But you don't get full service with one module you need 3, so you have 45 fuel for an hour. You compare 3.75 to 45. They are 67.500.000 for compressing and 810.000.000 to run indy. If someone owe you 810.000.000 but pay you 67.500.000 it is OK because they are comparable? No.


I'll take you word for that.

You see, when my mining alt was in high sec, I compressed billions of isk worth of ore in an Astrahus. And I payed exactly 0.00 Isk for that service.

The Point
permion
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#409 - 2016-10-12 02:35:40 UTC  |  Edited by: permion
At first it was an exciting read, then it got more and more disappointing.

It's like the past year or two of updates before this future one, were designed to defeat any benefit these structures could provide. It's actually kind of disappointing watching CCP plan for years all the other content in the game, then utterly fail to have foresight or any sort of a plan for industry.

It seems like the only reason these structures exsist is to give a new thing for PvPers to loot and KM up. As if industrialists didn't have enough PvPer to worry about on just the market itself.

It's like CCP hasn't even played industry where they've had over a decade of time where you were encouraged in all ways and with all mechanics to play industry like it was a small farm (sure you might bring on farm hands, but they were just hands). Any other mechanics that encouraged larger group play were closer enabling game play, rather than the core feedback loop. The small industrialist is so core to your design that YOU PUNISH PLAYERS FOR EVEN WORKING IN THE SAME SYSTEM.

_________________

Right now there are probably a lot of industrialists that have played the game you've wanted them to for the past decade, wondering if they're stuck trying to join another social network or just tossing industry to the side. Because their current one/group/network is NOT "we're industrialists it's what we do", they're probably closer to "we're X type of players, that has an industrialist or two that also like the first X type of play".

you're requiring a massive change in player interactions(and trust). This point is the bigger of the pain points(with the new system), especially when CCP has explicitly designed previous mechanics against playing as a group of industrialists.

EDIT: having your own array is kind of a big deal. A PvPer or PvEer will have the ability to custimize and own the device of their core feedback loop(their ship). For an industrialist you have what ME/PE research now? You're completely taking this away from industrialists that were large enough to solo out of a POS(I wasn't one of those)
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#410 - 2016-10-12 03:08:16 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Taylor Mill wrote:

The fuel costs for compressing ores is 5 for an hour and the citadels take 25% off that. It's 3.75 fuel for one hour. One module for indy is 15 after EC discount. But you don't get full service with one module you need 3, so you have 45 fuel for an hour. You compare 3.75 to 45. They are 67.500.000 for compressing and 810.000.000 to run indy. If someone owe you 810.000.000 but pay you 67.500.000 it is OK because they are comparable? No.


I'll take you word for that.

You see, when my mining alt was in high sec, I compressed billions of isk worth of ore in an Astrahus. And I payed exactly 0.00 Isk for that service.

The Point

To be fair, you may not have paid anything for it, but somebody was. I think the point he was trying to make was that a public Complex with a working industry set-up is going to be significantly more expensive for someone than a public Citadel with Refining / Compression available. It's a lot easier to absorb a 60 mil cost than it is to absorb an 800 mil cost each month.

In all honesty, I have my doubts as to how common public Complexes are going to be, anyway. The ones that go public are unlikely to be ran by industrialists, because we really don't want a lot of people in our system due to how much the Index cost affects our work. Babbet Bunny provided an example a few posts back (it's a bit of an extreme example, but on a lower-end example, taking a Vexor BPO from 9 to 10 ME will cost an extra 4 mil in a 1.5% Index system to about 9 mil in a 5.0% system. In a 10.0% Index system, it costs 25 mil.

Building is along the same scale. Building in a 1.5% system has a 95k install price. It's 260k in a 5.0% system, and 886k in a 10.0% system. Those may sound like trivial numbers at a glance, but with the price of a Vexor in Jita being 12.3 mil, the jump from a 95k install price to 886k represents a significant jump. The cost is 0.77% of the hull in the 1.5% system, 2.11% in the 5.0% system, and a whopping 7.20% of the hull in the 10.0 system. The Index is a killer of profit margins.

Another thought is that, for the industrial groups large enough to afford and run a Complex of their own, they're probably capable of hiring mercenaries to go after any public Complex in the system with them. The cost of the mercenaries is going to be cheaper over the long-run for them than dealing with the higher Index.

If the industrial corp owning the Complex are part of a larger alliance, they probably won't even need to pay for mercenaries; the alliance would likely be willing to harass the public Complex until it leaves in order to allow their industrial group to produce at better margins, allowing them to provide to the alliance at lower rates.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#411 - 2016-10-12 03:14:50 UTC
Babbet Bunny wrote:

This is why I don't want to share the system, much less the facility, I am doing research in.

What is your opportunity cost per hour locking that BPO from use in a research job?
How much higher does the index have to be in the EC research facility (which takes less time) to break even?

Keeping in mind that you do not even need to break even on the research cost. The research will increase your future profits per hour of using the BPO. Having the research done faster means you can be realizing those increased profits that much sooner.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#412 - 2016-10-12 03:16:17 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Taylor Mill wrote:

The fuel costs for compressing ores is 5 for an hour and the citadels take 25% off that. It's 3.75 fuel for one hour. One module for indy is 15 after EC discount. But you don't get full service with one module you need 3, so you have 45 fuel for an hour. You compare 3.75 to 45. They are 67.500.000 for compressing and 810.000.000 to run indy. If someone owe you 810.000.000 but pay you 67.500.000 it is OK because they are comparable? No.


I'll take you word for that.

You see, when my mining alt was in high sec, I compressed billions of isk worth of ore in an Astrahus. And I payed exactly 0.00 Isk for that service.

The Point



the point is compression needs to be taxable -.-
Broken Borders
Spatial Distortions
#413 - 2016-10-12 03:18:51 UTC
Ashterothi wrote:
Opner Dresden wrote:
The docking restrictions are goofy and unintuitive to players. They should be Small, Medium, Large for consistency. I'm disappointed that CCP continues to push pilots into mega-alliance groups and encourage blue donut mentality by forcing the choice of coffining players in supers or joining those who can afford a Keepstar.

Today, you can store and build a supercapital in a 2b isk POS... now it's a 30b+ structure with no ability to store them? This is a horrible shift of power to larger groups.


By that same logic you can tether a super outside a Medium for low cost and no fuel.



Exactly, the tether on ALL citadels should add 99.99% mass so that anything tethered cannot be bumped. What are you going to do when pos's are removed and there is 5 keepstars in nullsec to bridge safely, dock, switch pilots, take a 6 month break ect.

Also ccp i swear if you give the carebears an afk cloaky descanner, you better remove local, or atleast give a 3 minute local delay.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#414 - 2016-10-12 03:27:23 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:

In all honesty, I have my doubts as to how common public Complexes are going to be, anyway.

Hard to say at this point. But there will certainly be some. The question is how do we ensure they are attractive enough. They have to be worth using for the guys running a small tower right now over stations. Ideally it would warrant the risks, and cost them as much or less than the fuel of their own tower did in the past.

The problem of usage taxes is that they are tied to the installation costs. Therefore the tax rate will only make the issue of index spikes more significant.
Babbet Bunny
#415 - 2016-10-12 03:29:47 UTC
Was using that as an example. Manufacturing costs are similarly effected.

And only 1% faster if you have the T2 rig.

The savings of using the low index systems justifies rotating my POS every few weeks and essential subsidizes the fuel cost.

An EC would triple the fuel in that equation negating any benefit.
David Grogan
NerdHerd
#416 - 2016-10-12 03:40:20 UTC  |  Edited by: David Grogan
i think the medium industry complex should get slightly better defenses to be viable in null or wormholes

maybe give it 2 fighter launch slots. not OP but at least capable of defending itself from a greifer. maybe also add a restriction that fighters can only be launched when the vunerability mode is active

Everytime you buy something that says "made in china" you are helping the rising unemployment in your own country unless you are from china, Buy locally produced goods and help create more jobs.

Soleil Fournier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#417 - 2016-10-12 03:55:37 UTC
Winter Archipelago wrote:

Honestly, an increase in fees paid for industry wouldn't bother me, as long as it's done in small steps with enough time for the markets to adjust due to the sheer volume of goods created prior to the change. Having the huge jump that they're pulling with these Complexes is too much, too fast. Extra costs will be passed along, so ultimately it's the end users who will be making do with less ISK, but a huge single jump is moving too quickly due to existing supply.

That all said, those very same economic blog posts you mention show that we've had several months this year so far where we've had a net loss of ISK in the game. April, May, June, and August all had net losses to ISK. The reports were only started in February, so February, March, July, and September had net increases. Half of the months we've received economic reports for this year have had net losses of ISK.

If pulling ISK out of the economy is such a huge concern to you, though, there are two better sources: get rid of default insurance payments, and reduce the payout for highsec Incursions. Incursions, especially, as they're the third-highest faucet of ISK in the game, but are done by only around 1% of the players.


Small incremental changes are the way to go for sure.

I'd fully support nerfing highsec incursion payouts because it breaks the risk/reward scale, and it's a huge amount of money being added to the system that's going to a small percentage of players. But....I doubt it would happen because when they nerfed it before players just stopped running them altogether.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#418 - 2016-10-12 04:08:13 UTC
Babbet Bunny wrote:

And only 1% faster if you have the T2 rig.

Can you elaborate on this?
An Azbel gets a base 10% reduction to build and research times. A high sec T2 rig gives a further 28.8% build time reduction. The hull itself increases the rig by 25% to a 36% reduction.

That is a net build time of 57.6% of base, or a 42.4% reduction.

I don't have a high sec station on hand to compare, but null outposts only get a 30% bonus. That's a hell of a lot more than 1% faster. The job also only costs 96.4% of the materials in said Azbel.
Agfro Er
Secret Wormhole Authority Group
#419 - 2016-10-12 04:56:37 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:

Do you think if I asked them really nicely the sleepers in the C3 would put up a NPC station for me to research my blueprints

It's almost as if your isolation bubble has a door.

You can come into the out now. If it doesn't make sense for your operation to put up research and invention facilities, keep the BPO's safe in stations for those tasks. Or at a public facility suitable for those tasks. Periodically import the copies you need.


It's true that WH corps can move their assets out of system and leave them isolated at a station they wont be able to visit again until they're lucky enough to. It's also true we can compress our ore and haul it out too. But a new series of endless hauling, on-top of regular fuel acquisition, and long trips away from home system are not the play style options I was hoping for with these structures. Especially after all the effort of moving these assets in and defending them.

Before the dev blog I had been eagerly waiting for these new structures. My corp has begun some small scale production, researching cheap BPOs, reacting up resources harvested or brought in. We were excited and hopeful that these structures would allow us to finally turn our components into ships and mods in a better and shared experience for the players.

Now we are dreading the slow eventual shuttering of our POS. I don't yet know what this means for the future of our corp, but the options presented so far will probably lead to us shutting down our industrial branch. We never operated our industry for profit. It was a fun casual option for us when we weren't busy blapping things. I am prepared and plan to move all BPOs into NPC stations and give them to an alt. For the time being, ECs appear logistically impossible to manage.

That being said, CCP, you've brought me back from despair before. I'm looking forward to hearing more from other WH corps.
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#420 - 2016-10-12 05:17:08 UTC
Most of the people I know who are involved in small wormhole corporations have an army of alts in known space to take care of "normal" industry and fuel acquisition. The activities in wormhole space are the this that have to happen in wormhole space: eg. reactions, reverse engineering. Then all the goop is shipped out while they shift new fuel in.

In your case, I would wait and see what comes down the pipeline for those activities. What we have now covers only a portion of the industry space.