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Dev blog: Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes

First post First post First post
Author
Soleil Fournier
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#381 - 2016-10-11 22:27:45 UTC  |  Edited by: Soleil Fournier
Rowells wrote:

What do you mean it's silly? Was it supposed to be somewhere else?

Not every sink in the game needs to be equal to all others. And like I said before, the vast majority of those manufactured materials and products are bought and sold on open markets. This means those increased brokers fees apply there.

So why would an increase be needed? A reason other than "I think it's weird" if you don't mind.


The game needs more isk being taken out of the system. Too much isk is flowing in, too little is pulled out. The players have said so for years, and the devs acknowledged that when they introduced the broker/tax increase stating "the game needs more sinks".

When you look at places where you could take more money out of the system, manufacturing costs jump out at you as an obvious choice because they are so low. And since this expansion is dealing directly with manufacturing, it's the perfect time to do that.

It's irrelevant what isk is taken out after that item is built such as a higher broker fees because that's a separate line item, and there's no law stating a manufactured item has to go on the market after it's built so those increased fees may never be applied.
RainReaper
RRN Industries
#382 - 2016-10-11 22:28:17 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Sorry Pedro but you might want to go "read" the blog.
Pos's are going nowhere for the medium term ( a good while yet), Pos's once setup are more efficient than even the best set up EC and far cheaper to run, easier to defend, cheaper to replace (worst case your pos dies to a rare highsec wardec), cheaper initial outlay (by at least 100% over a medium EC).

Cost (in time and isk) vs Reward - There is as of November NO reason to change what you do now for your manufacturing needs.
EC's are to expensive to buy and maintain, too vulnerable, too limited in output options - for not enough return.
For what these things can do and how vulnerable to destruction they are - They should be as cheap or cheaper than current pos's.
Alternately - Just never remove pos's so manufacturers don't have to risk going broke because Devs have no idea about how Eve is played.
For shites sake, CCP is bleeding subscriptions then Devs come up with new ways to encourage more to quit, how fukin smart is that.
I did read the blog, and am aware they aren't going anywhere for a while.

But the time is fast approaching. Feature parity is closer than you think. Outpost deployment is being frozen already in December and from the CSM minutes they are working hard to get to the point as soon a they can to delete the hated POS code.

CCP is correct to go slow and ease them out of the game only once everything has a replacement. But manufacturing is one of the major uses for POSes and we can tick that off the list, leaving just the upcoming Drilling Platform and perhaps some form of the player star gates which could be out by the spring which will be around the time they start phasing them out. Enjoy your POSes while you still can.

CCP has no choice but to go slow - Forcing players to pay more than double what they do now for less functionality, more risk and less return - How fast do you want to see the next drop in numbers playing eve?

Most games aim for highest number of logins - CCP decided, going for lowest amount we can make the most out of, was a far better idea. So, cost to do anything in the game keeps going up in stupid increments, more players lose interest (or just find they can't compete anymore) - And quit.


CCP needs to start looking after its PAYING customers, or keep losing them.

This plus the Orca changes, could see another 15 accounts unsubbed by Xmas. I'll give it a couple of months to see how badly my operation is affected.
I'm not threatening CCP, 15 subs is nothing to them in the scheme of things (but it is to me, it means even less reason to login my other characters)
No you can'y have my stuff - I'll trash it all and biomass the characters before I'll give a lazy selfish nerd my stuff.



ok YOUUU while I dont like the new structures (for known reasons) the orca changes are sweet, and the new porpoise is cool to.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#383 - 2016-10-11 22:33:35 UTC
Sgt Ocker wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:
Sgt Ocker wrote:

Sorry Pedro but you might want to go "read" the blog.
Pos's are going nowhere for the medium term ( a good while yet), Pos's once setup are more efficient than even the best set up EC and far cheaper to run, easier to defend, cheaper to replace (worst case your pos dies to a rare highsec wardec), cheaper initial outlay (by at least 100% over a medium EC).

Cost (in time and isk) vs Reward - There is as of November NO reason to change what you do now for your manufacturing needs.
EC's are to expensive to buy and maintain, too vulnerable, too limited in output options - for not enough return.
For what these things can do and how vulnerable to destruction they are - They should be as cheap or cheaper than current pos's.
Alternately - Just never remove pos's so manufacturers don't have to risk going broke because Devs have no idea about how Eve is played.
For shites sake, CCP is bleeding subscriptions then Devs come up with new ways to encourage more to quit, how fukin smart is that.
I did read the blog, and am aware they aren't going anywhere for a while.

But the time is fast approaching. Feature parity is closer than you think. Outpost deployment is being frozen already in December and from the CSM minutes they are working hard to get to the point as soon a they can to delete the hated POS code.

CCP is correct to go slow and ease them out of the game only once everything has a replacement. But manufacturing is one of the major uses for POSes and we can tick that off the list, leaving just the upcoming Drilling Platform and perhaps some form of the player star gates which could be out by the spring which will be around the time they start phasing them out. Enjoy your POSes while you still can.

CCP has no choice but to go slow - Forcing players to pay more than double what they do now for less functionality, more risk and less return - How fast do you want to see the next drop in numbers playing eve?

Most games aim for highest number of logins - CCP decided, going for lowest amount we can make the most out of, was a far better idea. So, cost to do anything in the game keeps going up in stupid increments, more players lose interest (or just find they can't compete anymore) - And quit.


CCP needs to start looking after its PAYING customers, or keep losing them.

This plus the Orca changes, could see another 15 accounts unsubbed by Xmas. I'll give it a couple of months to see how badly my operation is affected.
I'm not threatening CCP, 15 subs is nothing to them in the scheme of things (but it is to me, it means even less reason to login my other characters)
No you can'y have my stuff - I'll trash it all and biomass the characters before I'll give a lazy selfish nerd my stuff.




You're talking about the Orca changes that are so awful, all of the affordable Orcas have been sold out and the market price in The Forge is now around 1.5 billion, right?

Yeah, if CCP doesn't recognize how horrible and unpopular those changes are, they're going to lose players in DROVES. Roll

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Aurra Jol
Skouriotissa
Get Off My Lawn
#384 - 2016-10-11 22:33:39 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:

Do you think if I asked them really nicely the sleepers in the C3 would put up a NPC station for me to research my blueprints

It's almost as if your isolation bubble has a door.

You can come into the out now. If it doesn't make sense for your operation to put up research and invention facilities, keep the BPO's safe in stations for those tasks. Or at a public facility suitable for those tasks. Periodically import the copies you need.


BPOs will go into asset safety mode. It is the one item which can be taken anywhere in an EC without fear of loss.
Commandant Fatty
Star Freaks
#385 - 2016-10-11 22:33:46 UTC  |  Edited by: Commandant Fatty
So, let me get this straight:

Right now, my single large tower can build all T1 subcaps, ammo, modules, components, and drones as well as some reasearch. To get the exact same functionality, I'd need to get at LEAST 3 Engineering Complexes that cost far more to run and have triple the startup cost EACH.

Sorry,I'll stick with the POS until the day its removed from the game.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#386 - 2016-10-11 22:37:14 UTC
so looking at the discription on sisi for the large complex it seems the idea to not let them dock capitals was last minute

Quote:

It provides tethering technology and has docking capabilities for capital-size ships and below. The Azbel can be fitted with Upwell's Standup service modules to provide expanded capabilities.


and here i thought these things were going to be more affordable options for smaller groups after the blog that idea went away and using them for industry will be a joke who knew CCP thought POS were so OP their replacements needed such a nerf
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#387 - 2016-10-11 22:39:16 UTC
Aurra Jol wrote:
Vald Tegor wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:

Do you think if I asked them really nicely the sleepers in the C3 would put up a NPC station for me to research my blueprints

It's almost as if your isolation bubble has a door.

You can come into the out now. If it doesn't make sense for your operation to put up research and invention facilities, keep the BPO's safe in stations for those tasks. Or at a public facility suitable for those tasks. Periodically import the copies you need.


BPOs will go into asset safety mode. It is the one item which can be taken anywhere in an EC without fear of loss.


The blog said ECs would use the same asset safety mechanics as Citadels.

Those asset safety mechanics do not exist in WHs. That would be a big enough exception that it would have received special mention, I think.

So, no, probably not.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

RainReaper
RRN Industries
#388 - 2016-10-11 22:57:05 UTC
One thing i have to ask, what happened to the ship tractor/bumping beams? Are they not happening anymore or what?
SpaceTigerCross
Nisus Corporation
#389 - 2016-10-11 22:59:16 UTC
CCP Phantom wrote:
With the huge expansion EVE: Ascension arriving on Nov 8, we will see the introduction of the eagerly awaited new Engineering Complexes.

We will get a new set of service modules that will expand research and manufacturing support to the entire line of Upwell structures. These service modules will be fully compatible with existing Citadel structures. Simultaneously, Upwell will be releasing a new set of Engineering Complex structures which are bonused for optimal performance with these service modules.

All details are now available in the new blog Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes


Rorquals will require the Large engineering complex to dock is that correct similiar to the fortizar citadel requirement?
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#390 - 2016-10-11 23:02:57 UTC
Soleil Fournier wrote:

The game needs more isk being taken out of the system. Too much isk is flowing in, too little is pulled out. The players have said so for years, and the devs acknowledged that when they introduced the broker/tax increase stating "the game needs more sinks".

When you look at places where you could take more money out of the system, manufacturing costs jump out at you as an obvious choice because they are so low. And since this expansion is dealing directly with manufacturing, it's the perfect time to do that.

It's irrelevant what isk is taken out after that item is built such as a higher broker fees because that's a separate line item, and there's no law stating a manufactured item has to go on the market after it's built so those increased fees may never be applied.

Honestly, an increase in fees paid for industry wouldn't bother me, as long as it's done in small steps with enough time for the markets to adjust due to the sheer volume of goods created prior to the change. Having the huge jump that they're pulling with these Complexes is too much, too fast. Extra costs will be passed along, so ultimately it's the end users who will be making do with less ISK, but a huge single jump is moving too quickly due to existing supply.

That all said, those very same economic blog posts you mention show that we've had several months this year so far where we've had a net loss of ISK in the game. April, May, June, and August all had net losses to ISK. The reports were only started in February, so February, March, July, and September had net increases. Half of the months we've received economic reports for this year have had net losses of ISK.

If pulling ISK out of the economy is such a huge concern to you, though, there are two better sources: get rid of default insurance payments, and reduce the payout for highsec Incursions. Incursions, especially, as they're the third-highest faucet of ISK in the game, but are done by only around 1% of the players.
Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#391 - 2016-10-11 23:04:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Vald Tegor
Here's a serious question I have for the "small scale industrialist":

Why did you choose this path?
Why do you want to remain on it?

My feeling is that you are a product of a broken game mechanic that is now being fixed. Lets follow the logic here.

I want to mass produce stuff for the market, because i like making things and it's profitable.
I want to maximize my profits, therefore I need to put up my own tower.
I need to put up my own tower. Corp roles and security suck, therefore i need my own corp to get the roles for using it and control access to ensure my safety.
I'm in my own corp with just my alts, therefore I am a small scale solo industrialist.

Does that sound about right?

These statements are currently TRUE. Once poses are removed, all but the first one will be false. You are back to step one of figuring out what the most profitable arrangement will be for your particular operation. Remaining a solo industrialist will not be a foregone conclusion.

So why are you drawing conclusions based on FALSE statements like
"I need my personal corp to control access to the facility so my stuff doesn't get stolen"
"I need my own building facility, so i need to pay to fuel it, so I need x production volume to cover MY fuel cost"
"I need my own building facility, therefore I need to be able to defend it"

Why do you not want to play a multiplayer game with others, now that you will finally be able to?



Wormhole production is a special snowflake. If you are only supplying your own small corp with ships, you have nowhere near the volume to justify the fuel cost of a tower in the first place. You are a byproduct of needing a tower to live in, and having ample fitting space for industry infrastructure. If you do have the volume, you're probably mass exporting your products to an external market. In that case, you can easily afford to put up facilities and/or already make the trips to bring in BPC's for production.

If you're just building stuff in wormholes part time because you can, there's good news for you. You can install the appropriate module, even temporarily, in your existing combat citadel and use it without the rig bonuses. You can also offline the module to save fuel costs when nothing is in production. You won't be as efficient as someone with a more extensive setup, but you never have been before either.
Winter Archipelago
Autumn Industrial Enterprises
#392 - 2016-10-11 23:16:16 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
You are back to step one of figuring out what the most profitable arrangement will be for your particular operation. Remaining a solo industrialist will not be a foregone conclusion.

Most of us already know what the most profitable arrangement is, and it's returning to NPC stations. We're trying to avoid that, and the fact that people are pushing that as a good option seem to forget that NPC stations offer absolute, perfect security for assets (as long as the person holding them isn't utterly foolish). We're trying to argue for a way to keep ourselves profitable without do that, so we can stay in space, where our assets are at risk, as opposed to using an NPC station, where there's no risk at all.

It seems counter-intuitive to drive high-value assets into an NPC station, but that's exactly what's going to be happening for the small groups.

Vald Tegor wrote:

Why do you not want to play a multiplayer game with others, now that you will finally be able to?

I dare say that most of us are already being social in the game. For many of the small-time and solo industrialists, it's something we do on alts to be able to make ISK that we use on our mains. We interact with our corp on our mains, we're flying out in space on our mains, and we socialize with the game on our mains. We don't socialize with corps on our alts because they're alts that we spend minimal time on in order to spend our time with our mates on our mains.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#393 - 2016-10-11 23:23:13 UTC
Vald Tegor wrote:
Here's a serious question I have for the "small scale industrialist":

Why did you choose this path?
Why do you want to remain on it?

My feeling is that you are a product of a broken game mechanic that is now being fixed. Lets follow the logic here.

I want to mass produce stuff for the market, because i like making things and it's profitable.
I want to maximize my profits, therefore I need to put up my own tower.
I need to put up my own tower. Corp roles and security suck, therefore i need my own corp to get the roles for using it and control access to ensure my safety.
I'm in my own corp with just my alts, therefore I am a small scale solo industrialist.

Does that sound about right?



Nailed it - people who like to have things just for the sake of having them (apparently this is a thing), aside.

I'm quite certain I will remain a small-scale solo industrialist in the sense that my corp, my jobs, and my wallet - all of the inputs and outputs - will continue to be my own.

I don't know, yet, what infrastructure I'll be using to run my operation. I imagine for the time being I'll continue in a POS as I see no huge benefit to early adoption, in my case. From there, I could see a mix of possibilities, depending on how a number of variables shake out.

I've loosely considered:
-Running my own structure or structures.
-Joining an alliance or other larger organization.
-Using NPC facilities.
-Using public ECs.
-Attempting to form a small, informal "co-op" for structure sharing in adjacent systems with other small/solo industrialists I know.

There are some aspects of the current plan that I think could definitely do with some tweaks, but I can't say the sky is falling.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Vald Tegor
Empyrean Guard
Tactical Narcotics Team
#394 - 2016-10-11 23:37:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Vald Tegor
Winter Archipelago wrote:

Most of us already know what the most profitable arrangement is, and it's returning to NPC stations.

When comparing costs of using an NPC station, vs your own personal research and manufacturing citadel network, of course.

Will it be true for using public facilities?
Will it be true for a number of solo industrialists banding together to share the costs and benefits?

Winter Archipelago wrote:

I dare say that most of us are already being social in the game. For many of the small-time and solo industrialists, it's something we do on alts to be able to make ISK that we use on our mains. We interact with our corp on our mains, we're flying out in space on our mains, and we socialize with the game on our mains. We don't socialize with corps on our alts because they're alts that we spend minimal time on in order to spend our time with our mates on our mains.

What if it made sense for them to be in your main corp, provide it with benefits of their products and enjoy the security provided by your mates?
HaubPlan1 Wads
WADS World Corp
#395 - 2016-10-11 23:40:13 UTC
HI all
Our corp has a small Faction POS that runs on 8 Fuels blocks/hour.
It does invention, ME, TE, and manufacturing of Teck II modules.

With this new system, 60 blocks/hr will be needed to do the same thing. Is that right?

If so.. it's not helping the small corps with reducing costs.

I would sure like to see an example of a small setup and what it would cost to run per hour.

Thanks
Lugh Crow-Slave
#396 - 2016-10-11 23:51:54 UTC
SpaceTigerCross wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
With the huge expansion EVE: Ascension arriving on Nov 8, we will see the introduction of the eagerly awaited new Engineering Complexes.

We will get a new set of service modules that will expand research and manufacturing support to the entire line of Upwell structures. These service modules will be fully compatible with existing Citadel structures. Simultaneously, Upwell will be releasing a new set of Engineering Complex structures which are bonused for optimal performance with these service modules.

All details are now available in the new blog Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes


Rorquals will require the Large engineering complex to dock is that correct similiar to the fortizar citadel requirement?



no only the xl can dock caps for some arbitrary reason
Lugh Crow-Slave
#397 - 2016-10-11 23:53:21 UTC
HaubPlan1 Wads wrote:
HI all
Our corp has a small Faction POS that runs on 8 Fuels blocks/hour.
It does invention, ME, TE, and manufacturing of Teck II modules.

With this new system, 60 blocks/hr will be needed to do the same thing. Is that right?

If so.. it's not helping the small corps with reducing costs.

I would sure like to see an example of a small setup and what it would cost to run per hour.

Thanks



ccp is using these to "reward" large groups by locking gameplay like this away from smaller/newer ones
Mara Rinn
Cosmic Goo Convertor
#398 - 2016-10-12 00:05:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mara Rinn
HaubPlan1 Wads wrote:
HI all
Our corp has a small Faction POS that runs on 8 Fuels blocks/hour.
It does invention, ME, TE, and manufacturing of Teck II modules.

With this new system, 60 blocks/hr will be needed to do the same thing. Is that right?

If so.. it's not helping the small corps with reducing costs.

I would sure like to see an example of a small setup and what it would cost to run per hour.

Thanks


With the new system you can lease your labs out to other capsuleers with no risk to your own jobs or materials. The EC will pay for itself if you can attract enough third party users to your facility. You should be able to reduce the capsuleer fees to zero for yourself and your friends, while still running the EC profitably.

The only way small corps will be punished is if they can not find enough allies to defend the EC during a wardec.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#399 - 2016-10-12 00:18:40 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
SpaceTigerCross wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
With the huge expansion EVE: Ascension arriving on Nov 8, we will see the introduction of the eagerly awaited new Engineering Complexes.

We will get a new set of service modules that will expand research and manufacturing support to the entire line of Upwell structures. These service modules will be fully compatible with existing Citadel structures. Simultaneously, Upwell will be releasing a new set of Engineering Complex structures which are bonused for optimal performance with these service modules.

All details are now available in the new blog Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes


Rorquals will require the Large engineering complex to dock is that correct similiar to the fortizar citadel requirement?



no only the xl can dock caps for some arbitrary reason


I don't know that I would call it arbitrary, really. Supercap docking is otherwise limited to the vastly more expensive Keepstar. The hull cost of a Sotiyo is only a bit more than an SC and well less than a titan, so I can kind of see the point, there. If all you wanted was a place to dock supers, a naked sotiyo hull is cheap enough, when you're talking about super-class assets, that it would be a pretty phenomenal value.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Lugh Crow-Slave
#400 - 2016-10-12 00:38:59 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
SpaceTigerCross wrote:
CCP Phantom wrote:
With the huge expansion EVE: Ascension arriving on Nov 8, we will see the introduction of the eagerly awaited new Engineering Complexes.

We will get a new set of service modules that will expand research and manufacturing support to the entire line of Upwell structures. These service modules will be fully compatible with existing Citadel structures. Simultaneously, Upwell will be releasing a new set of Engineering Complex structures which are bonused for optimal performance with these service modules.

All details are now available in the new blog Building Dreams: Introducing Engineering Complexes


Rorquals will require the Large engineering complex to dock is that correct similiar to the fortizar citadel requirement?



no only the xl can dock caps for some arbitrary reason


I don't know that I would call it arbitrary, really. Supercap docking is otherwise limited to the vastly more expensive Keepstar. The hull cost of a Sotiyo is only a bit more than an SC and well less than a titan, so I can kind of see the point, there. If all you wanted was a place to dock supers, a naked sotiyo hull is cheap enough, when you're talking about super-class assets, that it would be a pretty phenomenal value.



read that again we are not talking about super caps we are talking about standard caps