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[New Structures] Condensed thread

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Pryce Caesar
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#301 - 2016-05-04 21:46:33 UTC
Alexander Otium wrote:
I have been saying this stuff for weeks now and everyone kept brushing it off. Citadels are not cost effective as a defensive asset and require a boost to their damage, particularly the bombs (including the neutbomb, its application is too weak).


It should be at least as expensive to destroy a defensive asset in a pitched battle as it is to construct the defensive asset. That's my opinion on how expensive or difficult it should be to destroy a Citadel.


Because everyone else understands the common sense of having a supporting fleet to back up the Citadel, instead of incessantly asking for personal Death Stars that can wipe out fleets on their own.

Stop thinking in terms of DPS and start thinking in terms of the overall utilities a Citadel - A SPACE STATION - is supposed to provide. Citadels are priced as such because they are expected to replace Outposts, and serve similar functions to the older Player-owned Stations, not be a player's personal armed bunker.

They are meant to support a Corporation and/or Alliance by being a place where all their assets are held. That's why they are so priced.

If your corporation or Alliance cannot commit to the defense of your assets, that is as good as saying you don't deserve a Citadel in the first place.
Aurare Bel
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#302 - 2016-05-05 05:23:45 UTC
Just gonna throw this out here, if one has fighters deployed while in control of a citadel and for whatever reason, leaves that position, thus causing the fighters to be disconnected. As far as i can tell, there is no way to reconnect them, without having to haul a indy to each group to scoop. Thanks in advance.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#303 - 2016-05-05 05:40:42 UTC
Aurare Bel wrote:
Just gonna throw this out here, if one has fighters deployed while in control of a citadel and for whatever reason, leaves that position, thus causing the fighters to be disconnected. As far as i can tell, there is no way to reconnect them, without having to haul a indy to each group to scoop. Thanks in advance.


the hot key for reconnect still seems to work

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#304 - 2016-05-05 05:42:20 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
Alexander Otium wrote:
I have been saying this stuff for weeks now and everyone kept brushing it off. Citadels are not cost effective as a defensive asset and require a boost to their damage, particularly the bombs (including the neutbomb, its application is too weak).


It should be at least as expensive to destroy a defensive asset in a pitched battle as it is to construct the defensive asset. That's my opinion on how expensive or difficult it should be to destroy a Citadel.


Perhaps the long recognised general rules of war should be applied.... Big smile

That a minor fortification needs a 3:1 ratio of attacker to defender to guarantee success and a major fortification 5:1 - with the attacker expecting to take not dissimilar losses.

Ergo - a properly managed and setup Medium Citadel (worth 1b for example) would be expected to kill 3b in ships - a 180b XL then would normally kill some ~900b of ships.

Citadels, the structure(s) designed for defence, would be completely killable - but would require the attacking fleet to commit and take losses.


because large established groups should be invincible to new smaller onesRoll

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Rek Seven
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#305 - 2016-05-05 06:02:02 UTC
I would like station interiors/captains quarters to be in citadels, and I doubt it would be difficult to implement... Why is it not being included?

The wishlist is pretty much complete...
Aurare Bel
HIgh Sec Care Bears
Brothers of Tangra
#306 - 2016-05-05 06:09:45 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Aurare Bel wrote:
Just gonna throw this out here, if one has fighters deployed while in control of a citadel and for whatever reason, leaves that position, thus causing the fighters to be disconnected. As far as i can tell, there is no way to reconnect them, without having to haul a indy to each group to scoop. Thanks in advance.


the hot key for reconnect still seems to work

Not in my case
http://imgbox.com/yD8Y1mpr
Lugh Crow-Slave
#307 - 2016-05-05 06:11:48 UTC
Rek Seven wrote:
I would like station interiors/captains quarters to be in citadels, and I doubt it would be difficult to implement... Why is it not being included?


probably because ccp didn't want to look into the UI and didn't want to have ppl needing to click that button twice to get to the camera they wanted.

but i agree this would be nice.


i would also like it if we could pick our interiors (even if its just for the hangers and cq is never added) so i can have my citadel with a gal/amarr station hanger

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Lugh Crow-Slave
#308 - 2016-05-05 06:12:37 UTC
Aurare Bel wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Aurare Bel wrote:
Just gonna throw this out here, if one has fighters deployed while in control of a citadel and for whatever reason, leaves that position, thus causing the fighters to be disconnected. As far as i can tell, there is no way to reconnect them, without having to haul a indy to each group to scoop. Thanks in advance.


the hot key for reconnect still seems to work

Not in my case
http://imgbox.com/yD8Y1mpr


hmm send in a bug report i haven't been able to test since things left sisi and moved onto tq

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#309 - 2016-05-05 11:19:35 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
.........................

because large established groups should be invincible to new smaller onesRoll


Then you should absolutely re-think your rather biased point of view.....

For the current situation means that 'smaller groups' have little to no chance against the 'larger established groups'. For if the smaller manages the not inconsiderable feat of establishing its own base, then the larger can really easily blow it up.

Don't be silly and just look at my affiliation - read what is written instead

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
Lugh Crow-Slave
#310 - 2016-05-05 12:28:08 UTC
O.o i hadn't even looked at your affiliation. i was talking as a small group who would like to be able to siege these if the defender doesn't bother to show up.

no matter what the smaller group is going to be in trouble if they get sieged by a major force

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#311 - 2016-05-05 14:25:03 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
O.o i hadn't even looked at your affiliation. i was talking as a small group who would like to be able to siege these if the defender doesn't bother to show up.

no matter what the smaller group is going to be in trouble if they get sieged by a major force


That's not really the issue though. The issue is how little it takes. 5 man corp throws a citadel up, 6 people can knock it down.. and how hard is it to find 6 peolple when you have 3 guys meeting the dps minumum and 2 logi tanking it (assuming no ecm). At least in HS there has to be a wardec.

Oh the corp is forming up a defense fleet in low, null, wh? Great, say the words 'we have pew' in any number of channels and you'll have peolle coming out of the wordwork... and it takes no great effort on the attackers part to make thaf happen.

My only point is that atfacking medium pos should be at least as difficult as attacking a large especially considering someone has to actually sit in it and t bhai us not be avail in a ship. If I can kick someones sand castle with 6 dudes compared to the 10-20 a large pos takes... then why would people bother?
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#312 - 2016-05-05 20:36:44 UTC
I think this is one of those things CCP throws out there not knowing for certain how people will adapt to it.

Maybe 5 guys are not supposed to run a Citadel? Maybe sometime in the future another citadel-like structure will come up more closely resembling a medium POS (like a SMALL citadel) ?
Lugh Crow-Slave
#313 - 2016-05-05 21:32:04 UTC
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
O.o i hadn't even looked at your affiliation. i was talking as a small group who would like to be able to siege these if the defender doesn't bother to show up.

no matter what the smaller group is going to be in trouble if they get sieged by a major force


That's not really the issue though. The issue is how little it takes. 5 man corp throws a citadel up, 6 people can knock it down.. and how hard is it to find 6 peolple when you have 3 guys meeting the dps minumum and 2 logi tanking it (assuming no ecm). At least in HS there has to be a wardec.

Oh the corp is forming up a defense fleet in low, null, wh? Great, say the words 'we have pew' in any number of channels and you'll have peolle coming out of the wordwork... and it takes no great effort on the attackers part to make thaf happen.

My only point is that atfacking medium pos should be at least as difficult as attacking a large especially considering someone has to actually sit in it and t bhai us not be avail in a ship. If I can kick someones sand castle with 6 dudes compared to the 10-20 a large pos takes... then why would people bother?


why would you assume no ECM when a citadel can kick out very powerful ecm i feel like ppl are only looking at the DPS of citadel missile launchers and nothing else. a M citadel is far more defensible than a large POS

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Alexander Otium
Mothhat
#314 - 2016-05-05 23:59:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Otium
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Noxisia Arkana wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
O.o i hadn't even looked at your affiliation. i was talking as a small group who would like to be able to siege these if the defender doesn't bother to show up.

no matter what the smaller group is going to be in trouble if they get sieged by a major force


That's not really the issue though. The issue is how little it takes. 5 man corp throws a citadel up, 6 people can knock it down.. and how hard is it to find 6 peolple when you have 3 guys meeting the dps minumum and 2 logi tanking it (assuming no ecm). At least in HS there has to be a wardec.

Oh the corp is forming up a defense fleet in low, null, wh? Great, say the words 'we have pew' in any number of channels and you'll have peolle coming out of the wordwork... and it takes no great effort on the attackers part to make thaf happen.

My only point is that atfacking medium pos should be at least as difficult as attacking a large especially considering someone has to actually sit in it and t bhai us not be avail in a ship. If I can kick someones sand castle with 6 dudes compared to the 10-20 a large pos takes... then why would people bother?


why would you assume no ECM when a citadel can kick out very powerful ecm i feel like ppl are only looking at the DPS of citadel missile launchers and nothing else. a M citadel is far more defensible than a large POS


With a Fortizar you can only jam 5 people, max, and that's assuming you don't fit any other kind of E-war like painters or scrams. So they bring 7 Guardians instead of 2, five get jammed, and you can still outrep all of the Citadel's damage for a fraction of the cost.

Aside from that, a Fortizar is just not cost-effective as a defensive asset. You can get much more defensive power by spending the ISK on tech 1 battleships. You can buy ~90 fully-fitted battleships for the price of a fully-fitted Fortizar, and you can use 4-5 of them to do more damage than a Citadel, with the advantage of mobility so you can use it offensively as well.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#315 - 2016-05-06 01:45:43 UTC
then its a good thing they don't have to defend themselves alone huh

BLOPS Hauler
The 16.8km Bubble
Noxisia Arkana
Deadspace Knights
#316 - 2016-05-06 17:44:50 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
then its a good thing they don't have to defend themselves alone huh


You seem to fixate on one piece of every argument to prove your point... you could just acknowledge that I assumed no ecm tomade the conversation easier and for comparison purposes. I mean do we want to get into scram strength per ecm (fyi citadel is signifacantly lower).

Structures aren't meant to be owned by 5 man corps? We need to take a step back here and assume that we're using examples... great lets say its a 20 man corp, or 50 casual players.. or 1000 risk adverse bears. The point is, the structure is **** in comparison to the tools we have to defend ourselves now, why are we paying more for less?

There is 0 incentive for me as a wh corp to pull down my large and pop up a medium citadel. Can you give me one good reason outside of corporate theft?
Nikolai Mazinkov
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#317 - 2016-05-07 21:10:26 UTC
I agree that a citadel should have better DPS and defensive capability. A thing that is that huge and expensive should be more capable. Look at a Large citadel vs a Supercarrier, carrier, dread, or battleship. You should get more ability rom thestructure, even if that means scrapping or changing the DPS mitigation system and vulnerability windows.

Also, I couldn't find in here or elsewhere if there is a standings-based docking system or if you can't dock at a citadel if you are at war with the owner, anyone know?

"Momento Mori", Remember That You Must Die

www.rvbeve.com
Marcus Tedric
Zebra Corp
Goonswarm Federation
#318 - 2016-05-07 21:46:36 UTC
Nikolai Mazinkov wrote:
.......................

Also, I couldn't find in here or elsewhere if there is a standings-based docking system or if you can't dock at a citadel if you are at war with the owner, anyone know?


You can set up discrete access groups, which can be from an individual to whole groups.

I've not yet tried this myself, but I think you can even deny all your enemy's Corps and Alliances and still even let individual bad guys in if you so wished.....Twisted

Don't soil your panties, you guys made a good point, we'll look at the numbers again. - CCP Ytterbium
TheSmokingHertog
Julia's Interstellar Trade Emperium
#319 - 2016-05-08 03:32:29 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
Nikolai Mazinkov wrote:
.......................

Also, I couldn't find in here or elsewhere if there is a standings-based docking system or if you can't dock at a citadel if you are at war with the owner, anyone know?


You can set up discrete access groups, which can be from an individual to whole groups.

I've not yet tried this myself, but I think you can even deny all your enemy's Corps and Alliances and still even let individual bad guys in if you so wished.....Twisted


And then let them worry about that "spy" that you let in by "accidentally".

"Dogma is kind of like quantum physics, observing the dogma state will change it." ~ CCP Prism X

"Schrödinger's Missile. I dig it." ~ Makari Aeron

-= "Brain in a Box on Singularity" - April 2015 =-
Nikolai Mazinkov
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#320 - 2016-05-09 20:20:11 UTC
Marcus Tedric wrote:
Nikolai Mazinkov wrote:
.......................

Also, I couldn't find in here or elsewhere if there is a standings-based docking system or if you can't dock at a citadel if you are at war with the owner, anyone know?


You can set up discrete access groups, which can be from an individual to whole groups.

I've not yet tried this myself, but I think you can even deny all your enemy's Corps and Alliances and still even let individual bad guys in if you so wished.....Twisted


Fantastic, that is exactly the answer I was hoping for :)

Thanks

"Momento Mori", Remember That You Must Die

www.rvbeve.com