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[New Structures] Condensed thread

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Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers
The Initiative.
#261 - 2016-04-24 20:08:55 UTC
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
...and unless your Citadel DPS start ALPHAing people off the field, your argument will always be the same: logi counters "everything" according to some.


Just blow up the logi and then move on to the rest. It's like "shooting the Medic" in Team Fortress 2: kill the healer, and the attackers will fall in short order.

As for the weapons review, it seems that they neglected to post the fire rate of the weapons. The actual damage of the missiles and bombs is the fire rate multiplied by damage per second, although they only seem to explain the "burst damage" for the bombs.

For that matter, the burst damage of the bombs as a whole is equal to almost the whole EHP value of a single ship of their class size (NOT 10%), and the bombs apply this damage to all ships in range of the detonation. They're meant for AoE, not mini-Doomsdays. Yes, problems would arise with resistances, but even that can easily be dealt with by concentrated fire or multiple bomb drops.

Moreover, with Citadels as a whole, best thing to do is likely to target and destroy the heavier DPS ships first, and then shift your attention to the lesser ships that deal less damage. When you're as big as a Citadel, you can't afford to have Battleship-sized ships sticking around.

If they have logistics, pop the logistics first and then take care of the big ships and work your way down to smaller ships. Combine that with webbers or other EWar items, and any potential down-sides are rectified.

Did Alexander Otium actually use these things in a mock battle, or just look at the statistics. The Citadel, like any ship, needs to be battle-tested before its effectiveness is to be judged.
Alexander Otium
Mothhat
#262 - 2016-04-24 20:37:23 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Otium
Pryce Caesar wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
...and unless your Citadel DPS start ALPHAing people off the field, your argument will always be the same: logi counters "everything" according to some.


Just blow up the logi and then move on to the rest. It's like "shooting the Medic" in Team Fortress 2: kill the healer, and the attackers will fall in short order.

As for the weapons review, it seems that they neglected to post the fire rate of the weapons. The actual damage of the missiles and bombs is the fire rate multiplied by damage per second, although they only seem to explain the "burst damage" for the bombs.

For that matter, the burst damage of the bombs as a whole is equal to almost the whole EHP value of a single ship of their class size (NOT 10%), and the bombs apply this damage to all ships in range of the detonation. They're meant for AoE, not mini-Doomsdays. Yes, problems would arise with resistances, but even that can easily be dealt with by concentrated fire or multiple bomb drops.

Moreover, with Citadels as a whole, best thing to do is likely to target and destroy the heavier DPS ships first, and then shift your attention to the lesser ships that deal less damage. When you're as big as a Citadel, you can't afford to have Battleship-sized ships sticking around.

If they have logistics, pop the logistics first and then take care of the big ships and work your way down to smaller ships. Combine that with webbers or other EWar items, and any potential down-sides are rectified.

Did Alexander Otium actually use these things in a mock battle, or just look at the statistics. The Citadel, like any ship, needs to be battle-tested before its effectiveness is to be judged.



With the missiles I posted their DPS, with the bombs I posted their burst damage and DPS. DPS is damage per shot multiplied by firerate. Damage per second is NOT "the fire rate multiplied by damage per second".

The problem with killing the logi first is that the damage dealt by the Citadel is so small that the logi can very easily heal each other faster than the Citadel can deal damage. That is just silly, a Citadel is supposed to be a military emplacement, a Citadel, a fortress. It should not be easy to take one on with zero casualties.

With the stats right now, having a Citadel on field gives you about the same DPS, under optimal conditions, as 4 tech1 battleships, for an immensely higher cost and without mobility. I admit that I had not factored Fighters into it.

Looking at fighters now, taking Dragonfly I's as the example, 5 full squadrons gets you 718.2dps according to my skills on the test server. 718 from fighters, plus 1443 from 3 anti-cruiser missile launchers, and you have about 2161 DPS applicable to cruisers and up. This is still outdone with 2-3 Tech1 battleships, and very easily outrepped by a small amount of logi.

Again, as it stands, it's impossible for the Citadel to even kill any attackers unless it has an equally large and powerful fleet with it, because it is outperformed by a handful of ships that take a minute fraction of the cost. And if you need to have a fleet that's more powerful than the enemy fleet, what help is the Citadel? it offers no military advantage and would be more of a liability due to its cost and immobility.



I don't know where you get the idea that the bombs deal the entire EHP of their class size. How is 4k damage equal to a Tech1 Cruiser's HP? Or a battlecruiser? or a battleship?


One thing that I failed to factor in was the neut bombs. They neut 4000 raw GJ, with an explosion radius of 500. Against a Guardian logi cruiser, for example, that comes out to only 14% effectiveness due to its signature of ~70. 4000GJ from the bomb, multiplied by 0.14 due to the target's signature, comes out to about 560GJ neuted. Divided by the 20 second firing rate of the bombs, that's only 28GJ/s neuted.

To me, that sounds negligible.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#263 - 2016-04-24 20:54:52 UTC
Then it's a good thing you have a fleet there to give you the rest of the dps you need
Alexander Otium
Mothhat
#264 - 2016-04-24 21:07:04 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Then it's a good thing you have a fleet there to give you the rest of the dps you need


If you need a fleet strong enough to beat the attackers on their own to defend a Citadel, why have the Citadel? Your fleet can beat them without its help anyways, so what military purpose does the Citadel serve?
Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#265 - 2016-04-24 21:19:27 UTC
But you do not need a fleet strong enough to defend the Citadel alone.

The citadel is still quite strong, and should be able to defend from small fleets without much problems. For example the ECM has a strength of 60 when scripted, so it should be able to shut down basically everything.

And with the dps from fighters+missiles even the small citadel can kill a logistic in a short time. So a few logi is not a problem... just pop then one after the other while you ecm the rest. Of course a large number of logi will be a problem... but thats ok, a citadel should not be able to beat everything alone. If the enemy fleet is large then you need a support fleet, but still a much smaller one.
Alexander Otium
Mothhat
#266 - 2016-04-24 21:29:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Otium
Marranar Amatin wrote:
But you do not need a fleet strong enough to defend the Citadel alone.

The citadel is still quite strong, and should be able to defend from small fleets without much problems. For example the ECM has a strength of 60 when scripted, so it should be able to shut down basically everything.

And with the dps from fighters+missiles even the small citadel can kill a logistic in a short time. So a few logi is not a problem... just pop then one after the other while you ecm the rest. Of course a large number of logi will be a problem... but thats ok, a citadel should not be able to beat everything alone. If the enemy fleet is large then you need a support fleet, but still a much smaller one.


It only takes 3-5 logi ships to outrep the damage from a Citadel depending on composition, and if you're using basilisks or guardians said logi ships can out-cap the citadel's neuts. You can only fit 5 ECM max, which means only 5 logi can be jammed, so if you bring 10-15 logi and 5-10 tech 1 battleships, your citadel is being outperformed and will not be able to defend itself.

A station that is difficult to manufacture, difficult to transport, difficult to construct, and difficult to maintain, should not be able to be destroyed by 20 ships that cost a minute fraction of the cost and effort. If a fortification is difficult and expensive to put up, it should be more difficult and expensive to take it down.
Crazy KSK
Tsunami Cartel
#267 - 2016-04-24 21:33:18 UTC
Alexander Otium wrote:
Citadels offensive capabilities against subcapitals are inadequate.

I agree, citadels should be more powerful then they currently are in accordance with their price in relation to comparable ships.

Quote CCP Fozzie: ... The days of balance and forget are over.

Marranar Amatin
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#268 - 2016-04-24 21:38:41 UTC
Alexander Otium wrote:
so if you bring 10-15 logi and 5-10 tech 1 battleships, your citadel is being outperformed and will not be able to defend itself.


yeah, so?
A fleet with 10-15 logi in it is not really small anymore, at that point its ok that you cant solo that with a small citadel.

Alexander Otium
Mothhat
#269 - 2016-04-24 21:53:28 UTC
Marranar Amatin wrote:
Alexander Otium wrote:
so if you bring 10-15 logi and 5-10 tech 1 battleships, your citadel is being outperformed and will not be able to defend itself.


yeah, so?
A fleet with 10-15 logi in it is not really small anymore, at that point its ok that you cant solo that with a small citadel.




This is a Fortizar, a Large, not a Medium.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#270 - 2016-04-24 23:09:14 UTC
Alexander Otium wrote:
Marranar Amatin wrote:
But you do not need a fleet strong enough to defend the Citadel alone.

The citadel is still quite strong, and should be able to defend from small fleets without much problems. For example the ECM has a strength of 60 when scripted, so it should be able to shut down basically everything.

And with the dps from fighters+missiles even the small citadel can kill a logistic in a short time. So a few logi is not a problem... just pop then one after the other while you ecm the rest. Of course a large number of logi will be a problem... but thats ok, a citadel should not be able to beat everything alone. If the enemy fleet is large then you need a support fleet, but still a much smaller one.


It only takes 3-5 logi ships to outrep the damage from a Citadel depending on composition, and if you're using basilisks or guardians said logi ships can out-cap the citadel's neuts. You can only fit 5 ECM max, which means only 5 logi can be jammed, so if you bring 10-15 logi and 5-10 tech 1 battleships, your citadel is being outperformed and will not be able to defend itself.

A station that is difficult to manufacture, difficult to transport, difficult to construct, and difficult to maintain, should not be able to be destroyed by 20 ships that cost a minute fraction of the cost and effort. If a fortification is difficult and expensive to put up, it should be more difficult and expensive to take it down.


Yes 3-5 logi can out rep the citadels damage but every bit of damage they need to rep because of the citadel is damage they can bit rep from your fleet.


When ccp announced citadles they said that without a defending fleet even a shall attack force could siege them. Also remember the mods we have now are only meta 1 so they can't be all that strong so that there is still room for higher meta weapons.


Lugh Crow-Slave
#271 - 2016-04-24 23:10:28 UTC
Alexander Otium wrote:
Marranar Amatin wrote:
Alexander Otium wrote:
so if you bring 10-15 logi and 5-10 tech 1 battleships, your citadel is being outperformed and will not be able to defend itself.


yeah, so?
A fleet with 10-15 logi in it is not really small anymore, at that point its ok that you cant solo that with a small citadel.




This is a Fortizar, a Large, not a Medium.


What's your point citadels are not supposed to be able to defend themselves at any size they are only supposed to aid the fleet that is defending them
Alexander Otium
Mothhat
#272 - 2016-04-25 01:29:43 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Alexander Otium wrote:
Marranar Amatin wrote:
Alexander Otium wrote:
so if you bring 10-15 logi and 5-10 tech 1 battleships, your citadel is being outperformed and will not be able to defend itself.


yeah, so?
A fleet with 10-15 logi in it is not really small anymore, at that point its ok that you cant solo that with a small citadel.




This is a Fortizar, a Large, not a Medium.


What's your point citadels are not supposed to be able to defend themselves at any size they are only supposed to aid the fleet that is defending them



if we're talking military and combat strength, why have a Citadel when a couple of battleships is more effective for a fraction of the cost?
La loca Fappuccino
DEFCON.
The Initiative.
#273 - 2016-04-25 02:05:53 UTC  |  Edited by: La loca Fappuccino
Because you can't set up hangars, be invulnerable for all but 9 hours of the week, set up a market and contracts and everything else in 2 battleships.

Citadels are not meant to be unkillable. If they were much stronger, nobody would ever be able to kill them alongside a defense fleet - and nothing is meant to be unkillable in this game. Making a large Citadel able to take on a fleet of 30 people and win, without any backup support, is not good for promoting content at all.

If you want to keep your citadel, get your ass out of it and start defending it. This is not a tower defense game.
Alexander Otium
Mothhat
#274 - 2016-04-25 02:48:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Otium
If it's not going to be a fortress, why call it a Citadel? With how weak its defenses are, all it's useful as is a market platform, not as any kind of military emplacement. Their name should be changed to "Economic Platform" or similar if their combat ability is going to be so anemic.

for the cost of a Fortizar with tech 2 rigs, you can buy about 90 or so tech 1 battleships, and you only need a handful of those to kill a Fortizar

With how it is now, only the big powerblocs will be able to deploy and maintain Citadels because of the manpower required to defend them. Only the big established powerblocs will be capable of keeping them alive longer than the first vulnerability window. I thought CCP was trying to steer things away a bit from big monolithic powerblocs?

Even in highsec, you won't be able to deploy and maintain the Citadels, no matter the size, without a big group because of wardecs.

It's just silly, it's like a joke from a sci-fi comedy. The big incompetent space empire builds a huge war station, and they arm it with slingshots and popcorn blowguns.

Imagine every sci-fi movie or show about a battlestation being attacked, except make them unable to kill even a single one from a group of 5-10 ships. Pretty boring battle sequence, isn't it? Underwhelming and dissatisfying. That's how Citadel battles will end up if they aren't buffed significantly.

I still repeat, it would be FAR BETTER for the Citadels to be overpowered at release than underpowered. It would be pretty crappy if people deployed Citadels, they got destroyed in a complete curbstomp, then CCP buffed them afterwards. It would be much less objectionable for them to be too difficult to destroy at first, then CCP tuning them down afterwards.

The Citadels should be vulnerable during construction, but be extremely difficult to destroy once online and armed. It's just better from gameplay, narrative, balancing, advertising, and coolness perspectives to do it that way.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#275 - 2016-04-25 03:54:24 UTC
right because everyone and there grand mother is going to want to kill these things. people manage to put up plenty off POS that are never bothered even long after the corp that put them there is dead and citadels are harder to kill and have a far lower loot potential than pos do. so tell me why are so many ppl gunna go out of their way to kill them?

citadels are already very hard to kill if you have a support fleet with them. the large gets about 2k dps from sub cap launchers and then can get another 3-4 from its fighters. on top of that it has very powerful e-war and nuets.

and again these are only t1 meta 1 mods so they are the bottom of the line
Brokk Witgenstein
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#276 - 2016-04-25 04:55:24 UTC
I think you severely underestimate the area of effect abilities, as well as the remote bump / minidoomsdays.

As "special ability" support for your fleet, they'll definitely make for interesting combats! Time will tell.
Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers
The Initiative.
#277 - 2016-04-25 06:38:11 UTC
Alexander Otium wrote:
Pryce Caesar wrote:
Brokk Witgenstein wrote:
...and unless your Citadel DPS start ALPHAing people off the field, your argument will always be the same: logi counters "everything" according to some.


Just blow up the logi and then move on to the rest. It's like "shooting the Medic" in Team Fortress 2: kill the healer, and the attackers will fall in short order.

As for the weapons review, it seems that they neglected to post the fire rate of the weapons. The actual damage of the missiles and bombs is the fire rate multiplied by damage per second, although they only seem to explain the "burst damage" for the bombs.

For that matter, the burst damage of the bombs as a whole is equal to almost the whole EHP value of a single ship of their class size (NOT 10%), and the bombs apply this damage to all ships in range of the detonation. They're meant for AoE, not mini-Doomsdays. Yes, problems would arise with resistances, but even that can easily be dealt with by concentrated fire or multiple bomb drops.

Moreover, with Citadels as a whole, best thing to do is likely to target and destroy the heavier DPS ships first, and then shift your attention to the lesser ships that deal less damage. When you're as big as a Citadel, you can't afford to have Battleship-sized ships sticking around.

If they have logistics, pop the logistics first and then take care of the big ships and work your way down to smaller ships. Combine that with webbers or other EWar items, and any potential down-sides are rectified.

Did Alexander Otium actually use these things in a mock battle, or just look at the statistics. The Citadel, like any ship, needs to be battle-tested before its effectiveness is to be judged.



With the missiles I posted their DPS, with the bombs I posted their burst damage and DPS. DPS is damage per shot multiplied by firerate. Damage per second is NOT "the fire rate multiplied by damage per second".
[
The problem with killing the logi first is that the damage dealt by the Citadel is so small that the logi can very easily heal each other faster than the Citadel can deal damage. That is just silly, a Citadel is supposed to be a military emplacement, a Citadel, a fortress. It should not be easy to take one on with zero casualties.


Then you severely misinterpreted what I said. The damage per second for any missile is equivalent to to its base damage divided by its rate of fire. And I said "the actual damage", not "damage per second".

Did you ever bother testing it out in an actual battle? Even then, a Citadel is not made to be some nigh-impenetrable fortress. Like every ship in the game, it is able to be killed, even if it takes longer than other ships due to the fact that it goes into an invulnerability state every time the shields and armor get down to zero for an extended period of time.

You sound like you are arguing over a single, protracted engagement; Citadels in Null-Sec, last I heard, could stretch out any attempts to destroy them to over a week. The Citadels are meant to defend themselves, not be single-handed destroyers of fleets. You and your Corp are supposed to be able to step in to defend and fight alongside your Citadel.

Quote:

With the stats right now, having a Citadel on field gives you about the same DPS, under optimal conditions, as 4 tech1 battleships, for an immensely higher cost and without mobility. I admit that I had not factored Fighters into it.

[/quote]

Honestly, DPS is not all there is to Citadels. They perform a wide variety of other functions as well, and those 4 tech 1 Battleships can effectively add up to 2-4 Dreadnoughts w/o Siege Modules. Besides, missiles and bombs are not the only thing that Citadels have going for them.

Quote:

Looking at fighters now, taking Dragonfly I's as the example, 5 full squadrons gets you 718.2dps according to my skills on the test server. 718 from fighters, plus 1443 from 3 anti-cruiser missile launchers, and you have about 2161 DPS applicable to cruisers and up. This is still outdone with 2-3 Tech1 battleships, and very easily outrepped by a small amount of logi.

Again, as it stands, it's impossible for the Citadel to even kill any attackers unless it has an equally large and powerful fleet with it, because it is outperformed by a handful of ships that take a minute fraction of the cost. And if you need to have a fleet that's more powerful than the enemy fleet, what help is the Citadel? it offers no military advantage and would be more of a liability due to its cost and immobility.

One thing that I failed to factor in was the neut bombs. They neut 4000 raw GJ, with an explosion radius of 500. Against a Guardian logi cruiser, for example, that comes out to only 14% effectiveness due to its signature of ~70. 4000GJ from the bomb, multiplied by 0.14 due to the target's signature, comes out to about 560GJ neuted. Divided by the 20 second firing rate of the bombs, that's only 28GJ/s neuted.

To me, that sounds negligible.


THEN FIRE EVERYTHING AT THE LOGI AND BLOW THEM OUT OF THE SKY. If they are that much of a concern to you and that much of a worry, then use the Citadel to wipe the Logistics out, and then take care of the rest. The Citadels have a monumental amount of HP for a reason.

You are only focusing on the DPS, and that is your problem. The Citadels can also fit a wide range of Ewar modules, webs, and other associated Medium Modules that it can also use on enemies.

Problems with enemy Frigate speed? Web them, paint them, and then shoot them. Same goes for Logistics if you are that concerned. If you are that concerned about weapon effectiveness, then pair them with the Medium support modules.

But even with all that said,a Citadel shouldn't be without a fleet to help defend itself, anyway.


Pryce Caesar
Cloak and Daggers
The Initiative.
#278 - 2016-04-25 06:41:43 UTC
Quote:
I don't know where you get the idea that the bombs deal the entire EHP of their class size. How is 4k damage equal to a Tech1 Cruiser's HP? Or a battlecruiser? or a battleship?


Not taking into account any shield, armor or hull resistances, that is how the numbers add up.

The Bombs are single-damage type based, correct? A single bomb of the appropriate type should at least carve straight through the shields of most Cruisers in one detonation.

But I digress, since you seem intent on only focusing on individual attributes, rather than concerning yourself with how you can use all the attributes of the Citadel together to mount an effective defense.
Alexander Otium
Mothhat
#279 - 2016-04-25 16:07:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Alexander Otium
Pryce Caesar wrote:
Quote:
I don't know where you get the idea that the bombs deal the entire EHP of their class size. How is 4k damage equal to a Tech1 Cruiser's HP? Or a battlecruiser? or a battleship?


Not taking into account any shield, armor or hull resistances, that is how the numbers add up.

The Bombs are single-damage type based, correct? A single bomb of the appropriate type should at least carve straight through the shields of most Cruisers in one detonation.

But I digress, since you seem intent on only focusing on individual attributes, rather than concerning yourself with how you can use all the attributes of the Citadel together to mount an effective defense.



You seriously have no idea what you're talking about.

Bombs deal equal damage of each type as of last night when I was actually on SiSi toying with them. There are AS and AM sized bombs.

The AS bombs do 300 damage of each type every 20 seconds. 1200 damage total.

The AM bombs do 1000 damage of each type every 20 seconds. 4000 damage total.

Tech 1 cruisers easily have over 30k EHP on their tank type (Shield or Armor). Using an anti-cruiser bomb against cruisers, using 30k as the health amount, and you only do 7.5% of their health under these very generous ideal conditions. You only deal, at most, 4k damage without factoring in resistances. This is repped with no significant effort.


The Citadel is less effective than 3 or 4 tech1 battleships. How is that so hard to understand? Why do people seem to be okay with that? A structure that is literally called a "Citadel", as in a fortress, is outperformed by a couple of battleships that are a fraction of the size and cost? It's silly.

You're talking about things you haven't actually even read about and your replies show it.
aldhura
Blackjack and Exotic Dancers
Top Tier
#280 - 2016-04-25 19:58:26 UTC
Anyone know if orca mining boosts will work while tethered ? I can't seem to find any info on this.