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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Author
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1661 - 2012-01-11 20:08:48 UTC
i just wonder if this change is now final
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1662 - 2012-01-11 20:33:31 UTC
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
i just wonder if this change is now final


CPP still does a bad job when it is about communication.
Just one post like "We are testing A or B out on Sisi to see how it affects the balance. Please feel free to use Hybrids and let us know your experience...." would have taken them about 5 minutes. Aren't we worth that time? Is it really that difficult to COMMUNICATE?
I really don't get it. It is hard to believe how the same "mistakes" happen again and again...
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1663 - 2012-01-11 20:57:00 UTC
Hamox wrote:
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
i just wonder if this change is now final


CPP still does a bad job when it is about communication.
Just one post like "We are testing A or B out on Sisi to see how it affects the balance. Please feel free to use Hybrids and let us know your experience...." would have taken them about 5 minutes. Aren't we worth that time? Is it really that difficult to COMMUNICATE?
I really don't get it. It is hard to believe how the same "mistakes" happen again and again...


Excellent point. How did Null buffs get to SiSi, yet the thread which basically begged for this buff (among other things) was never notified of the change?

For shame Sad
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1664 - 2012-01-12 12:09:20 UTC
I'm not sure if the changes to ammo tange and gun damage are the ultimate solution.

Ships which are already good like vindicator @ docking games become monsters and ships which are somewhat strange will still be strange like eos, astarte....


tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1665 - 2012-01-12 16:58:35 UTC  |  Edited by: tEcHnOkRaT
what is strange that both minmatar arty and autocanons can hit targets at 100km distance

but if u talk about hybrids to give them such an ability it gets monstrous

the fallof bonus on tracking enchancers should be reduced to 15% the same as optimal bonus is

and projectiles would loose there OP status and would be more balanced to other turret systems

THE TRACKING ENCHANCERS WITH 30% FALLOF BONUS ARE COUSING ALL THE BALANCE PROBLEMS
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1666 - 2012-01-12 17:05:49 UTC
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
what is strange that both minmatar arty and autocanons can hit targets at 100km distance

but if u talk about hybrids to give them such an ability it gets monstrous

yup because hybrids needs cap and cant change dmg type ... oh wait...
it is also strange that the null fix made blaster to be able to do comarable dmg to ac-s at point range , but somehow it is op ,
so if a weapon system which does the same dmg and needs cap and only therm+kinect dmg type is op , what does that make ac-s? super imba op?
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1667 - 2012-01-12 17:22:24 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
what is strange that both minmatar arty and autocanons can hit targets at 100km distance

but if u talk about hybrids to give them such an ability it gets monstrous

yup because hybrids needs cap and cant change dmg type ... oh wait...
it is also strange that the null fix made blaster to be able to do comarable dmg to ac-s at point range , but somehow it is op ,
so if a weapon system which does the same dmg and needs cap and only therm+kinect dmg type is op , what does that make ac-s? super imba op?


And this is to say nothing of the minmatar ships STILL able to speed away if things go sour, while Gallente ships have no defense to speak of.

It's been a LONG time since a dev posted in here. What's going on?

CCP, the proposed Null changes are good, but they do not make the hybrid platform viable. Gallente ships still need some kind of passive defensive mechanic to compete with superior speed of minmatar and superior tanks of Caldari and Amarr.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1668 - 2012-01-12 17:28:24 UTC  |  Edited by: tEcHnOkRaT
my sugestion would be to the final balance fix

to give blasters the 1,4 bonus on null and then to reduce the fallof bonus on traking enchancers to somewhere about 20%
reduce arty alpha and give some of it to railguns

and take a look how it develops in the next few months
becouse projectiles are already kiking even the fleet abadon out of the top 20 list
and thats an alarming indication that u have a huge problem there with projectiles

even the alltimes number one drake is now at the second place overpowered by projekltiles

http://eve-kill.net/?a=top20
Jerick Ludhowe
Internet Tuff Guys
#1669 - 2012-01-12 18:40:57 UTC
thoth rothschild wrote:
and ships which are somewhat strange will still be strange like eos, astarte....




Command ships as a whole need a good looking at by CCP. The advantage that field commands get over tier2 bcs is rather minimal when looking at the cost and dead end sp investment that the command ships require. The fact that t3s make better off grid boosters than the fleets commands is just icing on the cake.


As far as null changes go... It will certainly have a significant change on medium and large blaster pvp. It will essentially boost dps by a rather significant margin in most close range pvp engagements.
Magosian
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#1670 - 2012-01-12 22:42:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Magosian
Jerick Ludhowe wrote:
thoth rothschild wrote:
and ships which are somewhat strange will still be strange like eos, astarte....




Command ships as a whole need a good looking at by CCP. The advantage that field commands get over tier2 bcs is rather minimal when looking at the cost and dead end sp investment that the command ships require. The fact that t3s make better off grid boosters than the fleets commands is just icing on the cake.


As far as null changes go... It will certainly have a significant change on medium and large blaster pvp. It will essentially boost dps by a rather significant margin in most close range pvp engagements.


Eh.

In my eyes, the same disparities can be found in command ships:

Sleipnir: simply awesome
Claymore: top notch for skirmishing, if you're willing to go to such lengths (strange how this fits the skirmish philosophy)
Aboslution: not bad!
Damnation: top notch for armor fleets (strange how amarr BS fleets work so well with this)
Nighthawk: eh
Vulture:eh (at least it gives bonuses to shield tanks, making SOME sense)
Astarte: nauseating
Eos: WTF? Information warfare? Why does this ship even exist anymore?

Note the top two, Minmatar/Amarr, make great use of their native t2 resists to provide dominating omni tanks. This ALONE makes them the better choices. Everything else is just average or downright deplorable. I can't think of a single reason to use an Astarte or Eos. Hrm, I remember saying the same thing about hybrids! Noticing a trend?
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1671 - 2012-01-12 23:17:06 UTC
well every time a newbie asked me what to train, i told them minmatar

and if they start arguing how they imagine other races to be better
i just say shut up, and do what grown ups are telling u Roll

so u see the trend
soon, after the most pilots trained for minmatar we have to rename the game from eve-online into winmatar-online

me mayself only 3 months left till perfect minmatar pilot
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1672 - 2012-01-12 23:45:57 UTC
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
well every time a newbie asked me what to train, i told them minmatar

and if they start arguing how they imagine other races to be better
i just say shut up, and do what grown ups are telling u Roll

so u see the trend
soon, after the most pilots trained for minmatar we have to rename the game from eve-online into winmatar-online

me mayself only 3 months left till perfect minmatar pilot


Well, when I started I was told that every Race is equal and that I should go with Gallente if I like the design. Drones are good for PVE and Blasters do kickass damage and are great for PVP.
CPP should educate their game masters better becouse to me it seems they have no idea about this game.
Also I should ask CPP to reimburse my SP I spend into total crap.
Only good thing is that I realized the problem early enough to cross train to caldari so I can use at least Tengu for WH and Drake for almost everything else ;)

If a newbee would ask me what to do I would tell him to go for Winmatar or Caldari.
Caldari is a good choise for missions and WH becouse Drake and Tengu are best ships for that.
Winmatar, well we all know what Winmatar is good for ;)
Amarr... ... I have no experience with Amarr.
Gallente? If you want to Haul and you need a cheap and huge hauler the Indy 5 is your choise. Everything else is just a waste to train.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1673 - 2012-01-13 09:39:29 UTC
the thanatos was a nice pve ship
but after the plex nerf it got kinda useless too

so yeah im also for a full reimbursting of the galente SP
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1674 - 2012-01-13 12:20:58 UTC
Is this thread still alive?

Lol impressive.

Lol
Ryans Revenge
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1675 - 2012-01-13 12:40:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Ryans Revenge
Are Devs still paying attention to this?

I personally think the main problem with blasters is that they aren't face **** enough up close. I don't believe they need to be turned into falloff acs. A lot of people will cry at this but to me it makes sense that a gallente ship should be able to be a glass cannon. Get in close and rip them apart before they stand a chance to rip yourself apart. This happens to a certain extent but not to the extent it should, ac's are still as powerful as blasters up close. AC's should still be the medium range powerhouse. But blasters should make people FEAR you getting at 0 to them. Not just be a little scared until they put that neut on you.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1676 - 2012-01-13 12:54:53 UTC  |  Edited by: tEcHnOkRaT
Ryans Revenge wrote:
Are Devs still paying attention to this?

I personally think the main problem with blasters is that they aren't face **** enough up close. I don't believe they need to be turned into falloff acs. A lot of people will cry at this but to me it makes sense that a gallente ship should be able to be a glass cannon. Get in close and rip them apart before they stand a chance to rip yourself apart. This happens to a certain extent but not to the extent it should, ac's are still as powerful as blasters up close. AC's should still be the medium range powerhouse. But blasters should make people FEAR you getting at 0 to them. Not just be a little scared until they put that neut on you.


the term glass canon comes not from short range skirmishes

but very long range massive damage, breaks if got targeted
it dosnt apply to galente blasters at all

but u can perfectly call arty a glass canon with a good tank :)

and projectiles are not middle range they can easily hit targets up to almost 250-300km

so plz do some research
Charles Edisson
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1677 - 2012-01-13 17:40:16 UTC
Totally rework turret based weapons.

1 New relationship between tracking and transversal velocity. If a hostile ships transversal is greater than your guns tracking then you miss 100% of the time. If it is equal to or greater then you might hit and proceed to part two of the calculation.

2 Projectile weapons are given an apparent velocity and thus flight time. no need to make them physical entities in the game like missiles just do it virtually. This would be where a new calculation based on the aggressors motion prediction, targets evasive manoeuvre, ship signature and projectile flight time should be used. The output should be a sliding value between 0 and 1. Then you have a random number multiplier to let big ships occasionally hit smaller ones to a point but when they do it's catastrophic. i.e. you miss 499 times but the 500th and only hitting shot is a kill.

Unfortunately due to physics Amarr ships should get a value or 1 here as lasers flight time would be near instantaneous but it would be realistic. might need to alter Amarr weapons to make this balanced.

On different classes of ship this would have a massive impact on applied DPS. frig classed hull might need to shift 20-30m to miss a shot and being a nimble ship this would be easy, where as a Titan needs to move 15Km in 3 or 4 seconds, which is not going to happen.
It also changes how damage is applied. as you get closer to an enemy damage goes up and up and up as the time component of the evasive manoeuvre V motion prediction part of the equation is reduced but get too close and you cross the tracking tipping point and suddenly DPS is zero.

This lets weapons keep their current ranges as AC would be short barrel low velocity projectiles so even though they can shoot out to massive distances it's easy to avoid the rounds. where as artillery are going to be long barrel higher velocity projectiles and much more difficult to get out the way of. Rails would have higher still velocities and be harder to avoid and beams near instant and almost impossible to avoid unless you say write in a detectable fire time to energy weapons thus building in a time to the evasion equation.
Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#1678 - 2012-01-13 17:51:38 UTC
1. No. Although Angular velocity could/should have varying d/dt (x, y, z) speeds.

2. Maybe. I like the part where skills come into play.
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1679 - 2012-01-13 18:42:11 UTC
Tanya Powers wrote:
Is this thread still alive?

Lol impressive.

Lol



It is alive becouse the problem is not solved and there is no feedback from CPP.
I will post here until:
- the problem is solved or
- we get good feedback or
- I'm pissed so I unsub and leave this game and company forever.
Dare Devel
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1680 - 2012-01-13 22:54:10 UTC
Crucible 1.1: Blaster Ammunition: Null Gets a Boost

Range and falloff bonuses for all sizes of Null ammo have been improved to bring the stats more in line with Barrage and Scorch ammunition


This is all we get after 85 pages of head banging !!!!

Please give up all.