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First post
Naso Aya
Imperial Shipment
Amarr Empire
#1041 - 2016-04-11 16:38:16 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
CCP, did the removal of the 24hour skill queue reduce the amount of people in space and reduce content eve wide? genuine question

That was implied in CCP Rise's response several pages ago.

A 24 hour cooldown, or even 22 hour cooldown, means that at some point we won't be able to log in as CCP rise said "on lunch break". I didn't see any response to the suggestions of once every day/once every downtime- with a reset point defined by CCP Some people will be able to do two each day, then skip out on the next day, but that, to me, is better than the alternative. I hate living my life by clocks, and don't want to see any more introduced.

I also think CCP is overthinking this- they say they want a lazy implementation, but don't want to have it be too easy. Let it be easy.

Give us the skill points for free.

That is, each day, give us the skill points just for logging in. Similarly to pre-Phoebe, we lose training time (though only 5 hours instead until we put a new queue in), and similarly to pre-Phoebe, you're forcing people to log in. Instead of a daily, it'd be what you want it to be- a reward, for logging in. We could call it a log in reward.

There are lots of people who don't want to shoot rats. They shouldn't have to shoot rats.

I would really like to see a clarification on the 24 daily nature of things.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#1042 - 2016-04-11 16:43:22 UTC
Amarisen Gream wrote:


This. **** dailies. Someone should be slapped for even bringing it up.

Not today spaghetti.

Mr Floydy
Questionable Ethics.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1043 - 2016-04-11 16:44:04 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Okay, let's see if I can provide some context for our decision to add daily opportunities to eve and maybe answer some of your bigger questions.

Ok, I get the logic behind the introduction of this now, but I still dislike the implementation. Why lock it into killing NPCs?
Make PvP kills count, making mining count, make scanning an anom count, make hacking count, make PI count*. Add some additional options for people to get this without forcing people to have to go shoot an NPC. Give out the reward as an incentive for any activity that gets people to log into the game and undock.

* Yes PI doesn't necessarily require undocking, depending on what you are doing - but I felt it's fair to suggest despite this.
#1044 - 2016-04-11 16:48:56 UTC
This sounds like a bad idea.
Nerf Air
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1045 - 2016-04-11 16:51:22 UTC
Been 3 years afk.
Paid for a month.
Saw this.
3 more afk years awaits. Lol
Dino Zavr
Shadow Owls
#1046 - 2016-04-11 16:52:55 UTC

Dear CCP Rise,

Sorry I am to completely disagree with your point of view.
CCP Rise wrote:
We didn't like the experience around being punished for not logging in to update your queue, but also knew that some of those logins might be leading to meaningful gameplay and we shouldn't lightly let go of them.

You think that once logged in to perform daily chores players might be hooked by talking with friends in Corp chat, invited to fleet, e.t.c.

Actually, that stupid routines do are exactly the opposite.

I am to note that leveling up in Eve requires a long time and it is NATURAL that players have several accounts normally three (for example, main, co-pilot providing bonuses and scout/tackler) or even more for professional miners. Also there are other useful toons on these accounts like cyno alts, inventors, haulers, station traders, industrialists, planetary and so on.

Let's say I log in each of my nine (or six or twelve) toons to shoot that damn rat. Toons with active queues need these additional SPs, characters with inactive queues (I don't farm ISKies enough to farm all nine PLEXes per month) would be “milked” for SP with extractors to speed up main's learning or just for sale. You noted absolutely correctly that skillpoints are the most powerful reward in Eve.
So, friend invites me to fleet. I do respond: “Sorry, mate, not now! I still have to login my other eight toons to kill that damn rats”. I don't join the fleet because i HAVE to complete these stupid daily chores to remain competive and not to regret about missed SPs.

Dailies feature ruins content instead of helping to create it.

CCP Rise, please, reconsider !
Chroma Corp
Prismatic Legion
#1047 - 2016-04-11 16:57:33 UTC
Please let hacking a can in a relic/data site count towards the daily. Personally I've hacked thousands of cans since I've last been responsible for a death in New Eden.
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1048 - 2016-04-11 16:59:19 UTC

[11:15] Saturday

Servers are online and you log in with the anticipation of spending some solid play time after a hard week at work. Last weekend you created 7 thorax hulls and every day since you've logged in for ten minutes after work to complete a corporation daily to hand one in, Now it's time to reap those rewards.

In your journal are 7 entries with timers ranging from 7 days to 14. All of them 3/10 complexes, Sweeeet! Well worth the effort of making all those hulls.


You're half way through your reward sites when the call comes out that an enemy corp has brought a fleet to blow up corp assets and tto form a counter-fleet. Since the timers have days before they expire, you decide to go join the fleet rather than continue, you can always do them tomorrow.

CCP Rise - I'm still not convinced SP is a good reward, but if it's at the end of this chain of activities at least it starts with player driven content and has more meaningful PvE options than killing one npc.
Devara Biotech
#1049 - 2016-04-11 16:59:53 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

Why Dailies?
So first lets talk a little history. EVE had a daily logon incentive for most of it's existence: the 24 hour skill queue limit. Back in Phoebe, we removed those limitations. Now, at the time, we were of two minds internally. We didn't like the experience around being punished for not logging in to update your queue, but also knew that some of those logins might be leading to meaningful gameplay and we shouldn't lightly let go of them. We leaned to the side of a better experience and removed the limitations, hoping that the logins we were generating were fairly empty, rarely leading to more actual activity in the universe. Well, it turns out we were wrong about that. Now, with before and after data we can see that making it into the client is a huge step towards real activity, even if the reason for logging in in the first place seems artificial. So this leads us to where we are now, attempting to find ways to create more logins that also don't feel like such a punishment as the skill queue limitations did. This may not turn out to be the perfect alternative but that's what we're looking for.

Even though dailies make people log in more. It will just be people who log in and do some mindless activity and then log out again. You need something that gives people a reason to participate in something more interesting rather than just log in each day and do 1 simple little thing. Likewise it punishes players who can't play every day but got more time to spare the other days.

Instead I suggest you to make weekly opportunities and then make them more intesting. Give the players x amount of goals each week but make a cap on how many they can do for SP, e.g. completeing 3 out of 5 goals will give the full SP. It will allow players to choose opportunities that match the playstyle they like and it will make a flexible system for us players who have an inflexible schedule.


Zylus Aldent
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1050 - 2016-04-11 17:07:01 UTC
As per CCPs own data ( most of Eve's player base is in their late 20s or early 30s. Most people in that age range who can afford to pay for an MMO have jobs and other real life commitments which make logging in daily challenging at best.

The fact that Eve has (up until now) respected my time is a major selling point for me, and judging from the figures and rage here, probably a lot of other people. Teenage me wouldn't have been bothered by dailies, he had all the time in the world, but teenage me would also have got bored of Eve months ago and stopped paying CCP money...

This change makes me feel that my pattern of play (3-4 hours, twice a week) is less valuable to CCP than a more "regular" player, when it's entirely probable that my 3-4 hours adds more content to the sandbox than someone logging on seven times to shoot an NPC.

If you want to incentivise people to log in, please consider those who simply can't log in every day, maybe by making the rewards weekly, or by capping them at 2-3 per week, or taking play time into account, or something.

Also, r.e. the reasons for the bonus being skill points and not ISK - since the advent of skill injectors skill points *are* ISK, and vice-versa, so CCPs "SP are more of a motivation" argument may hold for psychological reasons, but it doesn't make economic sense.

At current Jita prices (with a lot of rounding) 50 days of dailies fills a skill extractor and nets the player ~400m ISK, or ~8m ISK a day (after paying for the extractor). The opposite is also true - you can buy skill injectors to opt out of this feature at a cost (albeit one that escalates based on the number of SP your character has).

TL;DR: won't somebody think of the parents, and SP = ISK, so just give ISK and avoid the rage.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#1051 - 2016-04-11 17:08:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Rivr Luzade
CCP Rise wrote:
And finally the traditional MMO comparisons. While I found most of these comments to be the most entertaining, it's pretty absurd to think that any feature which can be found in a traditional MMO appearing in EVE means we are headed down the road to battlegrounds and dragon killing. If you look at Citadel feature list you should not have any concerns about our commitment to the EVE sandbox and the hardcore nature of our game.

Because that is how it is perceived. You do not generate activity, you generate people logging in, going to a belt in high sec or their totally secluded Null or run a quick L1 mission in Low, get that rat kill and log off again. This is not activity.

If you really wanted to "create activity", you would need to implement something like this or that (2 shameless self-ads, idgah). Yes, these things are not "easy to implement", but a mechanic that creates meaningful and impressive activity and experiences should not be "easy to implement". CCP is just taking the easy mode way instead of actually trying to improve the game. Instead of that, you continue to waste your expensive dev time on something useless such as the new map, the new camera, the new scanning system (which makes all the existing and working mechanics worse, by the way).

And since you bring Citadels into play: I see nothing there that makes the game more enjoyable or easier for, in particular, smaller and medium sized groups. Whenever you place such an expensive structure, everyone knows where it is without having to search the system and it is nothing but a roflstomp magnet for bigger groups and makes it easier for them to subdue smaller groups.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.

Nocturnal Romance
Cynosural Field Theory.
#1052 - 2016-04-11 17:10:33 UTC
You could implement this to give people a reason to undock.

or you could just give people a real reason to undock such as i dont know fun gameplay mabey???
Jeremiah Saken
The Fall of Leviathan
#1053 - 2016-04-11 17:22:18 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
If you look at Citadel feature list you should not have any concerns about our commitment to the EVE sandbox and the hardcore nature of our game.

What are you talking about? Your precious citadels won't even drop stuff after destroyed. Hardcore? Miner on hardest level is more hardcore.

Rise did you even do dailies? It doesn't matter what will be the reward. Burnout will eat players after 30 days. Been there done that. What will you do when WWB will end? It will end eventually. You will be giving SP just for logging?

"I am tormented with an everlasting itch for things remote. I love to sail forbidden seas..." - Herman Melville

Magdalina Anais
Pator Tech School
Minmatar Republic
#1054 - 2016-04-11 17:30:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Magdalina Anais
Once upon a log ago there wasn't a skill queue. There was however skills. So once in a while you timed it wrong and would get up on an alarm clock. No SP lost, but lesson learned. Then you always kept skills in reserve to make sure you could game the system, login whenever you wanted and still get full sp.

Then the 24hr skill queue came. To me this was excellent. Whenever I'd be unable to play, I'd just insert a long skill. Gaming the system to be able to play whenever I wanted. But without the need to get up for a skill change alone.

Then the skill queue got limitless. Very handy, but not really a game improvement. But highly gameable: For skills there's not need to log in at all (except when you put in a short, like 100day queue).

Now there's this kill one npc (on research altas with no offensive skills at all? On titan pilots?) or loose sp. There's no need, except to kill that npc. The incentive is fully artificial. And doesn't invoke choices. There's no game-ability. You gotta 'play' every day. Smart people did not need to see skills and their queueing as a chore. This cannot be described otherwise.

I hated wow daily quests and I will hate this daily chore.

Maybe make it so you can kill the npc on a simple android/iphone/winmobile app? Or via crest? Implement some sort of evejewelled or eveville?
Caldari State
#1055 - 2016-04-11 17:37:49 UTC
Every game I played that has dailies has burnt me out, both WoW and guild wars 2, because it is tedious and annoying.

Some people are going to say just don't do them then but a 20% increase to SP is too much to ignore. For me at least dailies cause me to log in just for the daily get bored and then log off because coming in to do the daily is such a buzz kill I don't even want to play anymore. And once I get behind on dailies and notice that I'm falling behind everyone I start thinking "why log in at all" and at that point I quit.

I have burnt out of eve a ton in the past and I just this summer came back after a 3 year hiatus from the game not because of dailies or wanting to get more sp but because of the new awesome changes coming. The the capital changes, and the citadels make me want to keep playing to see what they change in New Eden, some arbitrary reward structure won't.

In fact it will likely make me cancel my sub again. But it won't be to protest of the feature, it will be a simple case of burn out.

So please reconsider.

Neadayan Drakhon
Heuristic Industrial And Development
#1056 - 2016-04-11 17:39:30 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Why Dailies?
So first lets talk a little history. EVE had a daily logon incentive for most of it's existence: the 24 hour skill queue limit. Back in Phoebe, we removed those limitations...
... So this leads us to where we are now, attempting to find ways to create more logins that also don't feel like such a punishment as the skill queue limitations did. This may not turn out to be the perfect alternative but that's what we're looking for.

There's been a lot of feedback here that this kind of feature would be acceptable if the rewards were more monetary, either LP or ISK or something similar. There's a few reasons that doesn't really work and we feel pulled towards SP. I think the biggest one is that many people simply won't be motivated by LP or ISK, especially in the amounts we would be restricted to giving. SP simply has higher demand across more playstyles and player ages and that just makes it a more powerful incentive. Second big reason that we actually tried designs using item and ISK rewards and it quickly creates a lot of economic imbalances. Any time we are giving something away without much activity cost we are heavily sabotaging someone's gameplay. Whether it's because of devaluing LP, causing major inflation, or crashing item markets, it's all bad for you guys so we would rather avoid it.

We get you're trying to boost online count, this is not the way to do it. Using dailies as a motivational tool is NOT good game design, its operant conditioning. Dailies do not belong in EVE.
Trying to make somethign that isn't a punishment? Dailies are a punishment, in that if you don't do them, especially for an SP reward, you're punished. SP as a reward for for any activity is an absolutely terrible idea, dailies of any kind are a terrible idea anyway. You're devaluing SP yet again, and devaluing the game as a whole by doing so.
Trying to avoid devaluing other currencies and crashing markets doesn't create an excuse to devalue SP further.

CCP Rise wrote:
...We want you to be able to collect this reward during a lunch break or a 10 minute period where your kids are in timeout but also want to make sure there's some real gameplay associated with it. We think getting to a belt or gate for an NPC is about the right mix and that's why we've landed with this. That said, we've also deliberately tried to keep it simple so that we can deploy fast and adjust based on how it gets used. We are absolutely open to expanding the list of activities in the future and imagined that as one of the most likely first iterations. Small sidenote on activities: many of you mentioned PVP, remember that this is always problematic because the most effective way to PVP for rewards is just kill your own alt, which isn't very fun or interesting.

No! Even you admit that a pvp reward for killing your own alt isn't fun or interesting, how is killing a random rat any better? You honestly think getting to a belt for an SP reward is a good mix? No, its insulting. It'll get used because people will feel compelled to use it to avoid being left out, not because they really want to do dailies. Yes, I'm aware that not everyone will feel this way. Far too many will. Logging on should be because one wants to, not because they'll feel like they're missing out if they don't.

CCP Rise wrote:
New players
Seeing a lot of talk about this feature in the context of new players and I can just say that this is not a new player targeted feature. We hope it's good for new players as well but for the feature to be successful it needs to be relevant to everyone.

I'd like to point out again that making people feel like they're going to miss out if they don't participate doesn't make the relevance particularly valid. I'd also point out that not everyone will find this relevant anyway, for whatever reasons they may have (after all, this is a sandbox, what is relevant to one person won't be to someone else).

CCP Rise wrote:
And finally the traditional MMO comparisons. While I found most of these comments to be the most entertaining, it's pretty absurd to think that any feature which can be found in a traditional MMO appearing in EVE means we are headed down the road to battlegrounds and dragon killing. If you look at Citadel feature list you should not have any concerns about our commitment to the EVE sandbox and the hardcore nature of our game.

Comparing it to other games is perfectly valid, and it's not so much the slippery slope toward just another generic mmo; its that the idea of dailies is anathema to the core of EVE (or any sandbox game), and for a great many players one of the very reasons we left other games and play EVE. This was pointed out MANY times in this thread, and your response to it shows you don't get that. WE DO NOT WANT DAILIES IN ANY FORM.

CCP Rise wrote:
Hope some of this helps. We are taking your feedback seriously and if we don't make any changes before release we will absolutely be following up shortly after release with changes based on feedback and behavior.

If you're REALLY taking the feedback seriously the ONLY thing you guys should be doing is dropping this concept immediately without implementing it in any form, even on the test server. Implementing this makes it clear you're really not taking this thread seriously at all. The feedback in this thread has been overwhelmingly negative. The response to all this feedback should've been, "Ok, we won't implement this in any form."

No dailies!
Mizhara Del'thul
#1057 - 2016-04-11 17:45:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Mizhara Del'thul
Still no response to the "This is going from playing a game to doing a chore" part of the criticisms, CCP? Welp.

Want people active and undocking, make it fun and engaging, not something they do because they feel they have to. Revamp PvE for those who are into that sort of thing (bleh, can't stand it), revamp Faction War so that's more engaging again (see how Fozziesov enabled massive activity and war, now give FW the same treatment) and so on. That's what I'll bet most people want from this game.

More mechanics, revamped mechanics and refining what's out there right now in order to make undocking something we look forwards to. Something we look forward to doing together. More wacky fleet mechanics like the CDessies, etc, further invigorating small gang/medium gang PvP. Fuckin' kill off-grid links so there's much less barrier for entry in solo PvP for that matter.

There's so much you can do to make people active and undock, and you guys go with dailies? Ratting for SP? It's a disincentive to logging in! I don't want to have a chore waiting for me when I log in. I certainly don't want a chore waiting for me on multiple accounts. I want things I enjoy waiting for me, like a little bit of PvP, or social interaction. Maybe some industry stuff on the alt. Something satisfying.

Popping a red triangle is not.

Don't make logging in a process of "Allright, got a stack of ships to lose. The indy alt got eleven jobs in the oven I gotta put on the market. Wonder how Auga's doing? Ah ****, but first I gotta go do the dailies.". That's just... horrible.
Still Irrelevant
#1058 - 2016-04-11 17:47:46 UTC
I saw this on Reddit and rushed right over. This is not just a bad idea. This will KILL Eve. Please do some research on what motivates people. Read the book, "Drive" by Daniel Pink. I can tell you now what science says will happen if you do this:

In the short-term, you will enjoy increased logins sure, but as people associate logging in with being PAID, over time not only will people require more and more reward to justify the effort, but you will have now told people that logging in is not "fun." It is something for which you must be paid to do and therefore cannot be something you are CHOOSING to do. People will view logging in as a CHORE. Congratulations! That will kill your game.

Now, even though I am not being PAID to do so, I will solve your problem of wanting to increase logins but not knowing how to do so:

Associate some real purpose with a more frequent login. Nothing 1 for 1 though. Your PLEX for Good is a good starting place. Perhaps something in which (doing X) will cause a small donation by CCP toward PLEX for Good, but (activity X) cannot be performed, or is not rewarded more than once every 22 hours or probably better, every 72 hours.

Something along those line, or perhaps giving a vote as to how PLEX for Good is donated in the real world. Do something in game that tips the scale slightly in the direction you want.

I hope you read this before destroying Eve. <-- That's not hyperbole.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#1059 - 2016-04-11 17:50:24 UTC
All I can say after reading CCP's latest response is that is confirms that CCP Rise has completely lost his mind and has shown everyone that his short sighted band aid approach to game design should bar him from any serious position in the future development of the game.

I find it hard to grasp that someone could seriously believe that logging in to shoot a rat on every character owned is somehow conducive to a good game experience and will promote content. Personally I only really play at the weekends anyway, and I am not going to log in every character at the weekend for a measly 20k SP as I am past caring. I do pity all the players who are going to feel obliged to login every day to do this though, I am sure it will suck the enjoyment out of the game for them.

I don't feel it is worth going over any reasoning with Rise as he has shown that once his mind is set on stuff like this he won't change his view based upon player feedback which is why I feel annoyed to see another one of his fail posts yet again after skill injectors.

To sum up I will simply suggest that Rise needs to read and then re-read Tippia 's analysis until it sinks in, particularly the part quoted below.

Tippia wrote:
Why so lazy?

You have completely misunderstood the point here. The most fundamental flaw with this entire idea is not the SP, it's not the dailies — it's that you are meddling with activities at all. Applying the same methodology to more activities does not solve the problem, because you're still dictating to players how they should spend their time. It just makes it worse since it will create massive imbalances in what's best described as the “action economy” of the game.

There's no need to be coy: you want to reward people for logging in. So why are you being stupid about it? Just reward people for logging in. What they do while logged in is none of your business, and trying to meddle in it just makes everything else about the idea horrible. The core conceptual lunacy of the proposal is, and will always remain, that you dictate activities rather than activity. Consequently, you are not actually promoting activity — you are promoting rote repetition that will keep people from engaging with the game.

None of the design goals you present here suggest that ratting is a sensible activity to tie the rewards to. You are not deliberately keeping it simple — you're deliberately making it stupidly complicated for some unconceivable reason. The simple solution is to reward logins. If you want to maintain a threshold level to increase the possibility that some unintended sidetracking happens, then that's fine, but that's still hellalot easier than what you're proposing. Hell, your decision to tie it to an activity actively works against that goal: “don't disturb me with [distraction], I'm farming my SP.”

Breach Reaper
#1060 - 2016-04-11 17:53:20 UTC
I refuse to accept this as an acceptable way to get people logging in. SP as a reward for shooting npcs (something many people such as myself never do) is too overpowered and forces people to play the way CCP wants instead on how they want.