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First post
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1021 - 2016-04-11 15:24:53 UTC
CCP, did the removal of the 24hour skill queue reduce the amount of people in space and reduce content eve wide? genuine question

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#1022 - 2016-04-11 15:26:56 UTC  |  Edited by: Lan Wang
Terranid Meester wrote:
You will start to have people who suddenly say 'No can't join fleet, I've got to do my daily'. A nerf to pvp. Disgusting.

You have people who want to be pacifists in eve as eve is supposed to be a sandbox and they get unduly punished for it.
In regards to old players doing such a poor system, this will increase the divide between active new players and active old players in terms of skill points as well as driving new players into average pve at best.

exactly and especially when a significant increase in people make systems busy enough that people need to travel 4-5 jumps just to find a rat to kill for this daily.

dailies just increase solo play and the more dailies people have the less people will be playing with friends

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Delilah Albertis
School of Applied Knowledge
Caldari State
#1023 - 2016-04-11 15:28:22 UTC  |  Edited by: Delilah Albertis
Seraph Essael wrote:
Delilah Albertis wrote:
Seraph Essael wrote:
Selling out...

Selling out to who, the big record companies that they signed a 5 album deal with for 100 million dollars? I don't you quite understand the notion of "selling out".

Pleas look up the term. I can't help you to understand it if you don't know what it means. It doesn't just translate into record companies... It's the notion that you compromise your integrity and/or principles in exchange for a personal gain... like for

God forbid a company tries to keep a successful business running, do you know how a company remains successful? It grows. Do you know what it needs in order to grow? Profit.

That said, this new mechanic is certainly not that kind of power money grab, it's completely optional, and you as a player are not paying a single real world dollar extra than you already are for it's implementation. If you're even paying anything at all as you could also just PLEX and not give CCP any dollars. So no, they are not compromising anyone's integrity for personal gain with this maneuver.

If you truely feel in your heart that it is still the case they are sellout out (eve though that notion is completely bonkers), you are free to rid yourself of the shackles of eve and go explore real life in further depth. Like this new mechanic, you aren't forced into doing it, just like you will not be forced to stay in the game against your will.
Lord Haur
Star Frontiers
Brotherhood of Spacers
#1024 - 2016-04-11 15:31:24 UTC
Tikktokk Tokkzikk wrote:
Instead, I suggest every character with an active skill queue


Thirdly, players won't have to log in all their accounts three times to cycle through a bunch of characters they don't care about.

This, Please. Having to repeat a mindnumbing activity on probably poorly trained characters is a serious turn-off. If a player is going to login and play because of this, having to relog twice more to get the SP on his other characters won't change that, and if anything would decrease actual meaningful content as the player is forced to spend x minutes faffing about on alts that could be spent on the main character.

The limitation to active skill queue pilots would provide a reasonable balance to not having to do it per character.
Captain Semper
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1025 - 2016-04-11 15:38:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Semper
CCP Rise wrote:

Why Skillpoints?
There's been a lot of feedback here that this kind of feature would be acceptable if the rewards were more monetary, either LP or ISK or something similar. There's a few reasons that doesn't really work and we feel pulled towards SP. I think the biggest one is that many people simply won't be motivated by LP or ISK, especially in the amounts we would be restricted to giving. SP simply has higher demand across more playstyles and player ages and that just makes it a more powerful incentive. Second big reason that we actually tried designs using item and ISK rewards and it quickly creates a lot of economic imbalances. Any time we are giving something away without much activity cost we are heavily sabotaging someone's gameplay. Whether it's because of devaluing LP, causing major inflation, or crashing item markets, it's all bad for you guys so we would rather avoid it.

Good point, Rise. But why not AURUM then?
SP for some activity isnt right. From the birth to that day EvE was about "you dont need grind for char progression". And it was cool and unique.

And now you want to add some boring stuff. But in your current version you FORCE pilots to logon. You are not encourage them with some cool reward. No. You say them like that: " If you wont logon and do boring thing you will lose some important stuff".
And SP is damn imortant because the only way you can get SP - training (even injectors - some other guy did it).

So make AURUM as reward. Its unique enough, its "want this stugf" pretty enough. And if i dont want stuff from shop i wont do daily and wont feel "inner empty" because of this. Amount of aurum per day could be realy low - 15-20 (for 450-600 per month - sky will not falling)
In other hand - i have 100+kk SP - I DONT NEED SP AS A REWARD! ITS DAMN USELESS FOR ME!
Jita Flipping Inc.
#1026 - 2016-04-11 15:38:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Kovl
CCP Rise wrote:
Back in Phoebe, we removed those limitations. Now, at the time, we were of two minds internally. We didn't like the experience around being punished for not logging in to update your queue, but also knew that some of those logins might be leading to meaningful gameplay and we shouldn't lightly let go of them. We leaned to the side of a better experience and removed the limitations, hoping that the logins we were generating were fairly empty, rarely leading to more actual activity in the universe. Well, it turns out we were wrong about that.

24hr queue was not a daily, but a stupid old limitation. There's no "might be leading to meaningful gameplay" there, only occasional coincidences. Besides with higher ranked skills it was barely an issue (while remaining a stupid drag with mandatory "log on some day or lose SP"). Also don't forget "jump fatigue" and ongoing dumbing down of industry, which were the shakeups back then.

As for your current ideas, for the Nth time:

You're not promoting meaningful (lol) activity.

You're coercing people with SP to do brainless, meanigless, solo, zombielike daily chore. Hated by everyone but none the less performed around the clock because "omg loosing XP". And because you want big shiny PCU.

Try to grasp the difference.

CCP Rise wrote:
If you look at Citadel feature list you should not have any concerns about our commitment to the EVE sandbox and the hardcore nature of our game.

When I see citadels I see magical 10% fee 100% safety transportation service (excluding giant FU to wormholers getting full fairy rules) instead of at the very least mixed fairy/transportation for anything HS/LS/npc null (with ratios depending on true sec values) and mandatory full fairy for claimable null.

So hypothetitcally if we have some future war, with alliance X kicking some citadel's ass of alliance Y with a few titans docked inside, then they will be safe and sound automagically transported to nearby whatever station instead of getting destroyed or dropped as they should be.

Much hardcore indeed ....

Oh and borderline braindead taxes to forcibly kick people out of HS stations (not going to work btw, you will see).
Captain Semper
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1027 - 2016-04-11 15:41:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Captain Semper
Double post
BRASTUGA Federation
#1028 - 2016-04-11 15:44:34 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

How about buff escalation?

Give one escalation on the first mission or NPC killed on a belt, then reward with SP.
Azure and Argent
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#1029 - 2016-04-11 15:48:45 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Small sidenote on activities: many of you mentioned PVP, remember that this is always problematic because the most effective way to PVP for rewards is just kill your own alt, which isn't very fun or interesting.

Not fun or interesting are my exact thoughts regarding shooting NPCs in this game.
Jenn aSide
Soul Machines
The Initiative.
#1030 - 2016-04-11 15:51:27 UTC
The arguments will continue of course, but you should all understand that this is a done deal. There isn't even the kind of mass outrage skill trading had and that still went through. it's your time to waste if that's what you choose, but at this point I've decided that life is too short to get riled up over minor video gamer changes.

CCP Rise wrote:
Okay, let's see if I can provide some context for our decision to add daily opportunities to eve and maybe answer some of your bigger questions.

Circumstantial Evidence
#1031 - 2016-04-11 15:52:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Circumstantial Evidence
CCP Rise wrote:
Why Skillpoints? There's been a lot of feedback here that this kind of feature would be acceptable if the rewards were more monetary, either LP or ISK or something similar.
Thank you for coming to us with a more detailed explanation. I still don't like creating SP from thin air as the reward, after being sold on the idea that skill point trading was "ok" because SP would come from other characters.

I think LP can work w/o crashing markets if the reward is unique and interesting. Look at the popularity of the Sisters of EVE combat suit for Project Discovery. Create new, unique items that reward a daily commitment at 3 months, 6 months, 1 year. Something along these lines:

  • 3 months of Daily LP: new storyline Expanded Cargohold module, with 1% better stats than T2
  • 6 months of Daily LP: new storyline Damage Control with 1% better stats than T2 DCU
  • 12 months of Daily LP: selection of new faction navy BC's with 1% better stats than existing navy BC's
Drumm Enterprises
#1032 - 2016-04-11 15:57:21 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Okay, let's see if I can provide some context for our decision to add daily opportunities to eve and maybe answer some of your bigger questions.

Whether it's because of devaluing LP, causing major inflation, or crashing item markets, it's all bad for you guys so we would rather avoid it.

So you would rather devalue the core mechanic and key selling point of the game as a whole? Honestly i dont have any issue with daily (or a better option, weekly) "quests" being added to the game, just please, for the game as a whole, dont give SP as a reward, the only way SP should be introduced into the game is by the training mechanic. You are basically breaking the fundamental mechanic of game by doing this.
House Amamake
#1033 - 2016-04-11 16:00:16 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:

And finally the traditional MMO comparisons. While I found most of these comments to be the most entertaining, it's pretty absurd to think that any feature which can be found in a traditional MMO appearing in EVE means we are headed down the road to battlegrounds and dragon killing.

You might not, but it what it appears to be, we're not in your brain, we don't know what you think, all we saw is that you jump into those kind of lazy gameplay (yes it is, in every MMO) so how could you expect some of us will not react like that ?

I shouldn't need incentive to log on everyday in EVE other than "It's f***ing fun, this game is awesome", if you need to add such a "feature"(lol), means you failed somewhere else at providing tools for fun.

Whatever you do, for whatever reason, adding such a cheap feature in EVE will appear as a cheap decision, no matter how you explain it. Ask the PR guy in CCP, how it appears to be is as much important as what it really is.

On a personnal note: How do you expect this feature to work on people like me that don't want to shot NPC on purpose for ss or any other "RP" reasons ?

Loyal servent to Mother Amamake. @EVE_Tetsel

Another Bittervet Please Ignore

Exploration Frontier inc
#1034 - 2016-04-11 16:17:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Altrue
CCP Rise wrote:
Now, with before and after data we can see that making it into the client is a huge step towards real activity

You mean, like the infamous Opportunity system who had a huge impact, but you ended up admitting that it is only giving a few more percents? Lol

CCP Rise wrote:
10 minutes

More like an hour if we have to log-in every alt we have on every account. Even a new player with one account would have to do this three times per day. And you seem to think that all it takes is warping to a belt to kill an NPC, but boy is that false.

Signature Tanking Best Tanking

[Ex-F] CEO -

Ultimate Citadel Guide - 2016 EVE Career Chart

Gully Alex Foyle
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1035 - 2016-04-11 16:22:52 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Well-written stuff
Thanks for better clarifying your objectives.

I understand them, but if you're relating this to the skill queue you're taking things way too far!

In practice, the 24h skill queue limit meant people had to log in, on average, once a week or so. Simply because you'd often have a multi-day or even multi-week skill in training.

Going from once a week to every day is really an exaggeration.

Trying to see this from your perspective, the 'goal' of getting juicy SP needs to be achievable or else most people will just say 'f* this' and give up. For many of us, logging in every day and zapping a rat every single damn day is both unfeasible and obnoxious.

Not to mention doing it on all alts, which really does take time out of the 'oh while I'm logged in I might as well do something else' that you're trying to achieve.

So even if I continue to dislike this idea, for your own good and to actually reach your objectives I believe you should at least:

1) limit it to one char (any char) per account

2) make it a weekly or bi-weekly. or a formula like 'any 2 days/week', doable for example in both days of a weekend

Else I'm afraid you'll only get either people who just don't do it or OCD-type people that just do it robotically and then log-off.

Make space glamorous! Is EVE dying or not? Ask the EVE-O Death-o-meter!

Thercon Jair
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1036 - 2016-04-11 16:26:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Thercon Jair
I'm really not a huge fan of this implementation.

1. 24h skillqueue removal as reason d'être for daily logins is disingenious: you could put in shorter skills while you were playing, then kick in a long skill upon logout. No daily logins needed. Unless you were new and only had short skills.

2. The beauty of eve to me is that I don't have to log in every day and grind daily missions to progress, try the same dungeon every 24h to get that piece of equipment to progress. I can log in at my leisure to make isk or go explode some ships.

Introducing a 10k SP daily reward asks me to log in every character I have to perform one mindless task to stay ahead of the curve. This, to me, certainly isn't fun. It's what made me return to eve from other MMOs: I have time for RL and I can do whatever I want, when I want, without the nagging thought at the back of my head "you'll lose out on SP! Log in! Kill that 1 NPC", or 10 if you decide so. Which would incidentally make for a great MMO/RPG trope for: "Go kill 10 rats in the sewers."
Ao Kishuba
#1037 - 2016-04-11 16:31:54 UTC
Two big draws of EVE are that 1) the players are mature and almost exclusively adults and 2) the content is open and player-driven. Both of these features are related, and are unique to EVE as far as I have seen in my years of gaming.

1) If we are adults, why release a mechanic which treats us like children? The idea that we need an incentive of killing a boar for our daily XP is insulting to our intelligence. Project Discovery would not have worked in any other MMO, though similar (and much less complex) activities are available as phone apps. Why trust the players with something as intensive as Project Discovery if we can't even be trusted to log on of our own accord?

2) We clearly don't need any kind of daily XP reward to drive content. Surely the results of World War Bee speak for themselves: we were given Aegis and Phoebe, and in return we brought in larger player counts than have been seen in a long time. We're providing the content which drives existing players to resubscribe and new players to join the fold.

With these two in mind, where is the cause for concern about player counts? Is the worry that we will all unsub as soon as the major fighting is over, that we won't find something else to to? Do the people behind this decision not think the Citadel expansion will ride the wave of publicity and players generated by World War Bee to become the single most successful release in EVE history?

We are not always the most reasonable community, and sometimes the Reddit threads can get over the top in their toxicity and resistance to change, but that the some of developers are even considering implementing a mechanic like this betrays a profound distrust of the EVE Online playerbase. If our misbehavior has been sufficient to warrant such a response, despite the revenue we have generated as the result of the war we've been running, then I am truly sorry; additionally, if this daily XP reward system is implemented on Tranquility as described in this thread, I think we will all be very, very sorry.
Advenat Bedala
#1038 - 2016-04-11 16:32:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Advenat Bedala
CCP Rise wrote:
Okay, let's see if I can provide some context for our decision to add daily opportunities to eve and maybe answer some of your bigger questions.

Why Dailies?

Why Skillpoints?

Why so lazy?

New players


Hope some of this helps. We are taking your feedback seriously and if we don't make any changes before release we will absolutely be following up shortly after release with changes based on feedback and behavior.

Ohhh. It's really not a joke.

First. You owe me an astero I game away because it's not a 1 April joke
Second. "Why not" reasons

Why not dailies?
Daily is a "have to do" thing if reward is good. And even worse it cannot be manipulated by players. For example before skill queue changes I could place a long skill if I need to be offline long. I can plan my activities.
Daily mean I must login every day. I have to login.

And why "have to do" things are bad if out of player control? They stop game feel like a game. Stop game feel like entertainment... And make game feel like work. We have some work IRL, lol.

Why not Skillpoints?
Didn't you say that all skillpoints gained from skill training but not from real money, ingame money or grind (exсept for compensations for crashes)? It should stay same
If not speaking about promises - SP reward is simply too big. It makes daily "have to do" thing.

Also. Do you really think that such daily will not be exploited? or automated? With this implementation daily can give half of everyday SP income!

Why not so lazy?
Lazy implementation feels like artificial thing. This ruins atmosphere. Anything must feel like a part of game or EVE will not feel like a world and become common... And games that people play again and again all fell like a world.

If you'll really made dailies a part of EVE-world, EVE-lore it will be Ok. Maybe

Why so whine about traditional MMO things appearing in EVE? Just because EVE is unique alternative for all that traditional MMOs. That's why I'm here. That's why I'm still here. Please don't force me to leave. Because it's really no other game like EVE.

PS take the one that give idea of daily missions to nearest active volcano and throw him inside.
Harkin Issier
Lethal Devotion
Hole Control
#1039 - 2016-04-11 16:36:46 UTC
I continue to loathe this idea.

It's "content" people do not like when it appears in other games.

It undermines the entire "you don't grind for XP" idea that makes Eve different (which was already partially undermined with SP Injectors and I vehemently opposed those).

This spits in the face of your loyal customers. FOMO will just turn the heat up for burnout. All for a disgustingly empty mechanic used to artificially inflate your numbers.

You should be embarrassed.
A Big Enough Lever
#1040 - 2016-04-11 16:37:45 UTC
This needs to be expanded to:

gaining bounty of over X isk (say 10,000?)
mining Y volume(say 1000m3?)
hacking Z relic or data cans (say 4?)
killing one sleeper ship
killing 1 player ship in losec (outside of corp and/or alliance)
killing 1 player ship (outside of corp AND alliance) outside your sov in nullsec
participating in 1 succesful kill in highsec (so in a suicide gank on a freighter, everyone gets the bonus, but so do all the anti-gankers who show up to jam)
activate a remote repair module on a player who has a player vs player flag (against someone outside of corp/alliance)

or something similar, so that all playstyles are covered.

ATM this hurts scanning/hacking and PVP/logi characters unreasonably,
whilst rewarding miners and missioners unevenly

This is an interesting (and probably good) direction to take to get people to log in/de-cloak/undock and potentially get shot at, but at the minute is too uneven on who gets the rewards

For posting an idea into F&I: come up with idea, try and think how people could abuse this, try to fix your idea - loop the process until you can't see how it could be abused, then post to the forums to let us figure out how to abuse it..... If your idea can be abused, it [u]WILL[/u] be.