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First post
Author
Lavayar
Haidamaky
UA Fleets
#1001 - 2016-04-11 14:33:20 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Now, with before and after data we can see that making it into the client is a huge step towards real activity, even if the reason for logging in in the first place seems artificial. So this leads us to where we are now, attempting to find ways to create more logins that also don't feel like such a punishment as the skill queue limitations did. This may not turn out to be the perfect alternative but that's what we're looking for.

So, why you didn't consider adding 10k SP bonus just for logging in? If making it into the client is a huge step towards real activity. Then killing rat for 10k SP has nothing common with real activity!
Seven Koskanaiken
Shadow Legions.
#1002 - 2016-04-11 14:39:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Seven Koskanaiken
CCP Rise wrote:
Back in Phoebe, we removed those limitations. Now, at the time, we were of two minds internally. We didn't like the experience around being punished for not logging in to update your queue, but also knew that some of those logins might be leading to meaningful gameplay and we shouldn't lightly let go of them. We leaned to the side of a better experience and removed the limitations, hoping that the logins we were generating were fairly empty, rarely leading to more actual activity in the universe. Well, it turns out we were wrong about that.


Quote:
Back in Phoebe, we removed those limitations.


Quote:
Phoebe


What else happened in Phoebe that caused people to stop logging in?

I swear there was something.
Cat Evergreen
Doomheim
#1003 - 2016-04-11 14:42:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Cat Evergreen
After a few days of sleep, talking with other people and especially after reading CCP Rise's post in this thread, my negative attitude towards Dailies (see post here) has cooled down and I think I can now accept what CCP would have forced on me anyways. Blink

I now see the reasoning behind this feature as it will (hopefully) provide a better Eve for all of us by logging in more people.

I still stand to my critic from my previous post (see link above) about it a) being too powerfull and b) too simple.

Resolving b) is easy and already anounced that you will think about it: More different activites to claim the bonus SP. Please bring us more different daily activities to choose from as soon as possible. But let the players choose freely. (I hated the daily activity system in GuildWars2, where they would give you a small random selection of activities each day, so you had to do something different, but often I ended up doing stuff I didn't like, because what I liked wasn't part of the Dailies. One reason I'm in Eve now.)

Solutions for a) have been provided in my previous post: Make the amount (a bit) smaller and/or limit it to characters with active training (my personal favourite).

In the end I will ignore this feature, take the bonus whenever I happen to get if from what I wanted to do anyways and cry a little inside me whenever I log on for something that doesn't provide this bonus (like doing paperwork for my corporation).
Molly Shears
Grey Toxic Sword
Shadow Ultimatum
#1004 - 2016-04-11 14:44:34 UTC
Why you need to give SP ?

Why not f.e.
some new bpc for upgrade injector
to loose less skill points per older characters ?
or some kind of boosters, new "quafe" different for each month?

CCP Rise wrote:
Hi
[...]
kill an NPC ship every 22 hours.
[...]


Why 22h ?
why not once between downtime ?

and i don't change my mind
... I'm Against Daily
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1005 - 2016-04-11 14:49:11 UTC
Kovl wrote:
CCP Rise wrote:
Wow CCP
And finally the traditional MMO comparisons. While I found most of these comments to be the most entertaining, it's pretty absurd to think that any feature which can be found in a traditional MMO appearing in EVE means we are headed down the road to battlegrounds and dragon killing. If you look at Citadel feature list you should not have any concerns about our commitment to the EVE sandbox and the hardcore nature of our game.



Which part of adding a mindless daily chore repeated #characters times do you find entertaining or healthy for this (or any other) game ?

You're begining go down tihs road.

Are you really that blindfolded to not see how damaging this stuff is ?

For now it's 1 mob. Soon it will be 1 mob here, 10 mobs there, scan a signature, daytrip into wormhole, update 50 market orders, produce 100 pcs of ammo, start a research job, craft 5 rifters, gather 10 plants (erm I'm sorry, gather 10 pieces of Veldspar and s/mob/rat/g).

For everyone's favorite chunk of XP. Um I'm sorry, chunk of SP.


The sky is the limit how damaging all this crap can be.


You could always not do them if it damage your game experience that much. Your account won't get locked because you didn't kill that one rat...
Christmas Cheer
Doomheim
#1006 - 2016-04-11 14:50:59 UTC
Dislike.
Tikktokk Tokkzikk
V0LTA
WE FORM V0LTA
#1007 - 2016-04-11 14:53:32 UTC
I understand your goal and I agree with it. If players log in, they're much more likely to say hello in corp chat and join a random fleet, which is a win for everyone. However, unlike updating the skill queues on all my primary characters, killing a rat with every character I own will turn into a daily soul crushing activty. You don't want your players to dread logging in each day. This will go one of two ways: either skill injectors will crash in price, and I'll completely ignore the dailies as it'll not be worth my time, OR skill injectors stay at the current value I'll spend half an hour logging in 12 characters, most not even combat capable, to kill a rat and hate every second of it each day because it's 36b/year (100-200m/h) risk-free income.

Instead, I suggest every character with an active skill queue is awarded 10,000 SP for saying something in a chat channel. This has several advantages:
First of all and most importantly, every character no matter their playstyle are are able to do it without going through a lot of trouble (killing an NPC with my hauler with no combat skills is not fun).
Secondly, waving in corp / alliance / local chat is MUCH more likely to lead to more social interaction and turn the "log in for dailies" into a "join fleet and undock" than killing a random NPC.
Thirdly, players won't have to log in all their accounts three times to cycle through a bunch of characters they don't care about.
Frostys Virpio
State War Academy
Caldari State
#1008 - 2016-04-11 14:54:17 UTC
Black Pedro wrote:


First, just to point out that while shooting your alt isn't very fun or interesting, neither is flying to a belt and shooting a single NPC at no risk. It would seem to me if you are setting the bar so low, that it isn't very much further down to shooting an alt from shooting a single NPC.



People are upset because the road to max SP/year will include killing a rat and to change that, you propose that the best strategy be to have at least 2 account so you always have an alt available to kill?
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#1009 - 2016-04-11 14:57:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
CCP Rise wrote:
Stuff that doesn't address my concerns.


Now tell me CCP Rise why did this quote from Team Size Matters - 'Player driven economies are key to EVE design and we want you to decide the value of traded skillpoints while we make sure there is one single mechanism that brings new skillpoints in to the system – training.', appear?

Either they are lying or you are lying and are therefore not to be trusted. The link for that particular blog is here - https://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/skill-trading-in-new-eden/.

Its still a bad idea.
Viserys Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1010 - 2016-04-11 15:05:06 UTC
No, just please no.

I've left games because of dailies. I like Eve a lot, mostly because I can not play for a week, and feel I didn't lose much. My guy is still training, and sure I'm not making isk, but whatever, my eve life is strange.

Then, for my more pacifist play style (aka, Null/worm explorer/scavenger), I rarely carry weapons and even when I'm do, I'm so far into null sec that I'm usually not about to stick my neck out too much for trying to kill an NPC. If I'm in my Covops, forget it. No room for weapons even.

So now, when I'm not playing, I'm once again losing ground on skill training.

Even if they expanded it to things like hacking, I'm still against it. Sometimes I'll just wander for quite a few log in sessions and not touch a single can. Sometimes I won't even launch probes as I just wander around aimlessly.

I have to ask why CCP is even considering this.

Do you think it will actually increase player base? I can't imagine it would in any way.

I was trying to think of the economics for CCP, and I still can't imagine how it would help. Daily rewards are usually for games that are free to play, as a way to get eye balls in front of ads (which eve doesn't have) or to try to entice to purchase in game currencies. Sure, you can buy PLEX and sell for in game currency, but I don't see how a daily will increase the odds of that happening. If anything else, it would decrease it as people will be earning a slight increase in ISK from bounties on NPCs, and getting SPs to boost. the SP boost is 60% of what the injectors can bring in (at max potential), which cost ISK to buy, and how many people are buying & selling plex to get the extractors? Now they've provided an almost equivalent method for essentially free. Sure, you can combine the two and get even more, but still...I don't see the benefit to CCP.

So I have to ask...why? What would be the point?

Maybe next you should give SPs for visiting certain rare places associated with Lore?

Maybe after that, for PVP kills?

Then...for making a trade?

Why not just let me buy more SPs directly via the store, instead of extractors?
Daemun Khanid
Corbeau de sang
#1011 - 2016-04-11 15:06:40 UTC
More SP means I can do more things without skill requirement limitations. Being able to fly more things means I spend more isk to buy more things to then go out and in turn do more things.

More SP fuels the economy and puts more ships in space to shoot at. That said, just undocking a blapping a rat doesn't seem like a meaningful level of engagement but w/e.

Daemun of Khanid

Calima Arzi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#1012 - 2016-04-11 15:09:15 UTC
I don't want to have to log in my industrial alt in every day and somehow use it to shoot rats. I'm even less keen on cycling through all my alts - even those not training - to perform a repetitive activity on each of them. The competition - many other players - will be doing so, and so must I: but I will bitterly resent doing so. My time is precious and this is not how I want to spend it.

If the reward were anything but skillpoints I would happily ignore this: as it is, I have to do it, and will hate doing so.
Sexy Cakes
Have A Seat
#1013 - 2016-04-11 15:09:25 UTC
So now I have to log on all my alts to do dumba$$ dailies? What about my titan alt that doesn't have access to an XL citadel b/c I'm not in a huge nullsec power bloc?

Not today spaghetti.

Kovl
Jita Flipping Inc.
#1014 - 2016-04-11 15:09:41 UTC  |  Edited by: Kovl
Frostys Virpio wrote:
You could always not do them if it damage your game experience that much. Your account won't get locked because you didn't kill that one rat...


IDC about dailies, I've experience enough of this primitive pseudogamedesign **** in other games. And I don't need more SP. And the whole issue here is not about SP.

But you (and CCP Rise) remain completely oblivious to what dailies can do with a game. And you have it explained on past 50 pages repeatedly. Guess ignorance is a bliss.
Amarisen Gream
The.Kin.of.Jupiter
#1015 - 2016-04-11 15:10:28 UTC
I would say, please pardon my language or whatever but... nah.

@ CCP,

This is where i give you two middle fingers or pull out my man parts and **** on your shoes.


Now, don't get me wrong, I love the fact that you are trying to figure out ways to get people to log on, Thats cool jelly beans. But, the how is what is ducked up and wrong.

Lets take this approach.
From my POV,

PVP is in a good state, lots of people logging on to fight in the war up north.

PVE is in the same state it was before i started playing EVE like 3 years ago.
-- And here you are, lets give players 10k SP for logging on and killing A rat.
-- All for the goal and purpose of getting people to log on.

HOW ABOUT YOU GIVE US SOME UPDATED CONTENT INSTEAD, SO WE WANNA LOG ON AND RUN THE NEW SITES????

You want to get players online - we need newer and updated content.
Missions,
Combat Anomalies and Sigs.
--- And your reply is, we are working on a system to make it easier to update that content. ---
--- And I say, blah blah blah ducking blah. I've seen that reply for like two years.

The way I would update the PVE content - (this takes from many of the former post, plus adds new stuff related to this forum topic)

1: NPC Missions need to be updated to a "cosmic anomaly/sig" like window. Where you can explore space and see where there are missions for you without needed to dock up. Thus keeping players in space more as they can run more missions for multiple NPC groups as the missions are provided in a window that doesn't require you to dock.

2: Combat sites need to be updated. The smaller sites need to be about what they are, with the bigger sites, expanding over the full grid. The same with expeditions and escalations. --- It is in this place that you could reward SP as a bonus (up to a limited amount each week), this SP would by the lore come from SOCT, as their reward for helping kill pirate factions.
-- By pulling the SP as a reward for completing this sites. PVE players can get their reward, while PVPs could steal the reward by killing the PVEer and finishing the site.

There are so many better options to get people to log on and stay logged on then...

Aura "Hello player. Thank you for logging in, now go kill a rat and get 10k SP. See you tomorrow"

"The Lord loosed upon them his fierce anger All of his fury and rage. He dispatched against them a band of Avenging Angels" - The Scriptures, Book II, Apocalypse 10:1

#NPCLivesMatter #Freetheboobs

Steijn
Quay Industries
#1016 - 2016-04-11 15:13:02 UTC
only just seen this thread, a resounding NO from me, absolutely stupid idea.

Valia Fournier
Involuntary Reactions
#1017 - 2016-04-11 15:13:23 UTC
The skillque was only a "daily" if we set a skill that ended in 24 hours or less. Most of the time our skills had a much longer duration meaning we only changed them every so often, perhaps once per month.

AND The skillque was universal, killing NPCs is not. if you were an industry toon, you weren't forced to undock and risk your implants doing an activity you didn't want to do.

I can't believe you think that undocking and killing an NPC is "meaningful" gameplay. It's not.

You didn't address the "grind for skills" dynamic.

Last, it's great that you gave us more insight into the project, which should have happened in your first post. But you took a LOT of feedback and changed....nothing. Fine, but you didn't tell us anything from 50+ pages of feedback that you were willing to look into changing. You just told us how we are wrong. Why solicit our feedback in the first place? This is the old way of CCP doing things, (post a feature, gather feedback, tell players how they are wrong rather than being collaborative) and it's extremely frustrating.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#1018 - 2016-04-11 15:14:11 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Black Pedro wrote:


First, just to point out that while shooting your alt isn't very fun or interesting, neither is flying to a belt and shooting a single NPC at no risk. It would seem to me if you are setting the bar so low, that it isn't very much further down to shooting an alt from shooting a single NPC.



People are upset because the road to max SP/year will include killing a rat and to change that, you propose that the best strategy be to have at least 2 account so you always have an alt available to kill?


It's practically the same; shooting your alt is not significantly more challenging that shooting a rat. Whether I spend a minute undocking and shooting a rat for no reason, or undocking to shoot my alt for no reason, it is effectively the same amount of time, clicks, and risk. Completely trivial - just a mindless make-work chore.

If you are going to reward people for so little, you might as well go whole hog with the design. The point after all is to get them to login everyday and this design satisfies that goal.
Tippia
Sunshine and Lollipops
#1019 - 2016-04-11 15:20:44 UTC
CCP Rise wrote:
Why Dailies?

The skill queue was not a daily incentive. That's a patently absurd claim. The 24h queue was a means to avoid the 4am alarm clock skill-change logins, and it was 24h because that was all that was needed to achieve that goal. It did not in any way, shape, or form incentivise a daily login because you never had to log in daily to mange skills to begin with.

The beauty of the skill system, especially with the 24h queue, was that it wasn't a daily requirement to log in — you could do it at your leisure during the times you'd log in anyway. Of course you saw fewer logins and less activity when you removed the 24h limit. Everyone knew you would. The realisation that this happens is not reason enough to suddenly force people to log in at times when they otherwise wouldn't. Your fundamental problem is still that you are trying to bribe your way to an appearance of success rather than let people have fun when they log in, and being soured by the predictable results of the skill queue change is not an adequate reason to go completely nuts in the other direction.

Quote:
Why Skillpoints?

The economic arguments are bunk — if many people aren't motivated by those types of rewards, then that's a good thing. It means you've scaled it properly to only target a very specific audience that needs that kind of help. For those who aren't motivated by that, other things will already motivate them to log in and do what they do to earn that cash (and orders of magnitude more). For those that aren't motivated either way, you've already lost them because you are not offering gameplay that they want — giving them SP for grinding content they've already rejected does not change this fact.

Indeed, the argument you offer why SP is a good choice is the exact reason why it must not be SP: they are simply too valuable to too many people to offer the player a valid choice between doing what they want and doing what you want. And let's be clear here: what you want is utterly and completely irrelevant. Your opinions don't matter. If you want to matter, shut the sandbox down and construct a themepark where you decide what players do.

Quote:
Why so lazy?

You have completely misunderstood the point here. The most fundamental flaw with this entire idea is not the SP, it's not the dailies — it's that you are meddling with activities at all. Applying the same methodology to more activities does not solve the problem, because you're still dictating to players how they should spend their time. It just makes it worse since it will create massive imbalances in what's best described as the “action economy” of the game.

There's no need to be coy: you want to reward people for logging in. So why are you being stupid about it? Just reward people for logging in. What they do while logged in is none of your business, and trying to meddle in it just makes everything else about the idea horrible. The core conceptual lunacy of the proposal is, and will always remain, that you dictate activities rather than activity. Consequently, you are not actually promoting activity — you are promoting rote repetition that will keep people from engaging with the game.

None of the design goals you present here suggest that ratting is a sensible activity to tie the rewards to. You are not deliberately keeping it simple — you're deliberately making it stupidly complicated for some unconceivable reason. The simple solution is to reward logins. If you want to maintain a threshold level to increase the possibility that some unintended sidetracking happens, then that's fine, but that's still hellalot easier than what you're proposing. Hell, your decision to tie it to an activity actively works against that goal: “don't disturb me with [distraction], I'm farming my SP.”

Quote:
New players

New players is an excellent reason why you should stay away from SP and look more towards economic incentives. Older players will gain substantially more from an SP scheme than new players will, with all the imbalances that come with that kind of bias, but they can easily out-earn some minor income increase that would mean the world to a new player.

A feature does not need to be relevant to everyone to be successful. That's utter pigswill. A feature needs to be relevant to the target audience to be successful. You have failed to define a target audience, and have therefore accidentally targeted people that are likely not to benefit from the idea, or who will not let you reap the benefits you're after.

Quote:
We are taking your feedback seriously and if we don't make any changes before release we will absolutely be following up shortly after release with changes based on feedback and behavior.

Right. We've all been down this road before and heard that exact line. What you mean in plain text is that you have no intention of changing this before release, and that you will ignore the predicable aftermath until it cannot be ignored an more, at which point you will try a new ill-conceived panicked solution.

Your idea is very simple (in both meanings of the word):
In order to boost your life-giving concurrent user stat, you want to…
1) give ridiculous amounts of SP…
2) to people who engage in a common activity…
3) …once a day.

A simpler way of doing what you want is to:
1) give something that can be had some other way, but perhaps not as conveniently…
2) to anyone who's logged in…
3) …for a sufficient number of minutes each week or month.

No need to balance activities; no need to set special trigger events; no need for any oddly timed action phases; no need to convince people that they should be doing something they don't enjoy; no need to make people feel they “lose out on” either rewards or on some fun activity.. Just use a stat you are already tracking, and let people play the game.
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#1020 - 2016-04-11 15:24:29 UTC
You will start to have people who suddenly say 'No can't join fleet, I've got to do my daily'. A nerf to pvp. Disgusting.

You have people who want to be pacifists in eve as eve is supposed to be a sandbox and they get unduly punished for it.
In regards to old players doing such a poor system, this will increase the divide between active new players and active old players in terms of skill points as well as driving new players into average pve at best.