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Author
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
#1081 - 2016-04-11 19:16:53 UTC
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:
I see many OLDER players (which already have tons of SP as they play for a long time) complain about that system saying "it removes the link between age and SP"...

There is a way to fix that...

Make the SP gained vary with the player current SP total, a little like what you see for skill injectors.

That way, older players with tons of SP ( 150 000 000 SP and more for example) won't get much from that "daily" (for example 100 SP which will be neglectible in comparison to what they already earn) and new players get the full 10000 SP (or even more as a boost for new players and a way to help them getting hooked to the game).



Give me a valid reason to get less out of an injector than someone who has played for 1 month.

You can't.

Your idea is bad and you should feel bad.
Erihn Sabrovich
#1082 - 2016-04-11 19:22:09 UTC  |  Edited by: Erihn Sabrovich
Ria Nieyli wrote:

Give me a valid reason to get less out of an injector than someone who has played for 1 month.

You can't.

Your idea is bad and you should feel bad.


From Skill injector "info box"
Quote:

This item can be activated in a station to grant the user unallocated skill points. Skill injectors are consumed immediately once activated.

The amount of skill points granted depends on the total skill points (including unallocated skill points) the using character possesses, according to the following scale:

Characters with less than 5,000,000 skill points will receive 500,000 unallocated skill points.
Characters with between 5,000,000 and 50,000,000 skill points will receive 400,000 unallocated skill points.
Characters with between 50,000,000 and 80,000,000 skill points will receive 300,000 unallocated skill points.
Characters with more than 80,000,000 skill points will receive 150,000 unallocated skill points.


Skill Injectors are created using a Skill Extractor.


Skill injector already give less SP to players with higher SP levels...
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
#1083 - 2016-04-11 19:28:54 UTC
Yes, but just because I've been playing longer, does not mean I should be treated like a second class citizen. Injectors cost the same for me as they do for everyone else, why should I receive less benefit for my money?
Nevyn Auscent
Broke Sauce
#1084 - 2016-04-11 19:30:13 UTC
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:


Skill injector already give less SP to players with higher SP levels...

The actual reason your idea is bad is because CCP have much better tools to address new player issues.

They have increased starting skills so that people start with decent amounts of support skills.
They can give SP through the Opportunities system instead, which is a once off award the very first time you do something, which doesn't require doing it every single day but can instead do it at your leisure.
Daily login awards don't actually help the new player who sits down for six hours on day one to play, who is the only sort of new player who actually has SP issues, since every other sort of new player can actually train the skills they need while they are logged out between days.

So, the system is not really helpful to new players, and again, introduces a 'grind for SP' quest which is specifically against EVE's passive SP gain system.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1085 - 2016-04-11 19:36:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
CCP Rise wrote:
....




except back with the 24 hr queue i could still plan to set it up so i could log in when i had time it was not a hard set 22 hrs i could set it up to be month or even bi month this is EVERY day and it does punish those who can not log in every day


how about make them build so every day 1 rat adds to your counter but the counter never goes over 30

so say you cant log in for half a month when you do log in your counter is at 15/30 so you can go and kill 15 rats but if you stay logged off for a year its only 30/30 this still incentives logging on but its much more free for the player to do it


this would be a way to adapt dailies to fit your game rather than just copy past and jam it in
Erihn Sabrovich
#1086 - 2016-04-11 19:38:19 UTC
Ria Nieyli wrote:
Yes, but just because I've been playing longer, does not mean I should be treated like a second class citizen. Injectors cost the same for me as they do for everyone else, why should I receive less benefit for my money?


Well, it's a FACT, I didn't decide that rule, CCP did...

I just suggested to use decreasing return from dailies when you've higher SP level which would result as
- a way to make newer player connect more (older players which are still playing don't want to change their playing behaviour anyway)
- a way to boost newer players, the SP gap is becoming too big and may turn off some newer players... and it's increasing... This will give them some motivation to play more, invest time in their character (and get hooked to EVE)
- for older characters, doing dailies or not won't be that much important... Those who will do it will have a very minimal return (better than none at all) but it won't really penalize those who don't want to do them...
- as the return is decreasing when your SP increase, it'll keep some link between character age and SP (higher SP levels will stay require older characters)

As a matter of fact, it'd be far more correct to older character than the injector return which is ALREADY IN GAME
Ria Nieyli
Nieyli Enterprises
#1087 - 2016-04-11 19:45:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Ria Nieyli
Erihn Sabrovich wrote:
Well, it's a FACT, I didn't decide that rule, CCP did...

I just suggested to use decreasing return from dailies when you've higher SP level which would result as
- a way to make newer player connect more (older players which are still playing don't want to change their playing behaviour anyway)
- a way to boost newer players, the SP gap is becoming too big and may turn off some newer players... and it's increasing... This will give them some motivation to play more, invest time in their character (and get hooked to EVE)
- for older characters, doing dailies or not won't be that much important... Those who will do it will have a very minimal return (better than none at all) but it won't really penalize those who don't want to do them...
- as the return is decreasing when your SP increase, it'll keep some link between character age and SP (higher SP levels will stay require older characters)

As a matter of fact, it'd be far more correct to older character than the injector return which is ALREADY IN GAME


What that would accomplish is make people who have actually played longer and have already invested in the game feel like they're being ripped off.
Back when I started, everyone had much more SP and ISK and connections and things than me. It didn't stop me from playing and progressing to where I am now. And there are still people that have more of the aforementioned things than me, but it won't stop me from keeping on. Having to log on every day or miss out on progression, on the other hand will. And I'm not alone in this.

Let's face it, unless you started back when EVE was released, you'd be a victim of the ~SP gap~. And that SP gap doesn't really stop you from accomplishing things, if you're actually interested in playing the game. EVE is not for everyone, it's a long-term hobby.
Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#1088 - 2016-04-11 19:46:28 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


how about make them build so every day 1 rat adds to your counter but the counter never goes over 30

so say you cant log in for half a month when you do log in your counter is at 15/30 so you can go and kill 15 rats but if you stay logged off for a year its only 30/30 this still incentives logging on but its much more free for the player to do it


If this has to be implemented, then I'd rather go with something along the lines above. Especially as the goal is to try and encourage people to log in regularly (rather than daily).

I would also be in favor of - say - only making it effective for players with under 10M SP (that's roughly 6 months in the game and it should be enough time for someone to find their feet - if they aren't logging in regularly at that point you've either already lost them, their corp situation isn't that interesting or they are not particularly inclined to log in regularly.

To my mind this whole thing sounds rather manipulative and by extension disrespectful to your customer base.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1089 - 2016-04-11 19:49:22 UTC
Necharo Rackham wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:


how about make them build so every day 1 rat adds to your counter but the counter never goes over 30

so say you cant log in for half a month when you do log in your counter is at 15/30 so you can go and kill 15 rats but if you stay logged off for a year its only 30/30 this still incentives logging on but its much more free for the player to do it


If this has to be implemented, then I'd rather go with something along the lines above. Especially as the goal is to try and encourage people to log in regularly (rather than daily).

I would also be in favor of - say - only making it effective for players with under 10M SP (that's roughly 6 months in the game and it should be enough time for someone to find their feet - if they aren't logging in regularly at that point you've either already lost them, their corp situation isn't that interesting or they are not particularly inclined to log in regularly.

To my mind this whole thing sounds rather manipulative and by extension disrespectful to your customer base.


the 10m thing would not work as CCP said the idea is supposed to affect all players and has nothing to do with NPE :/ but glad some one else sees the idea as reasonable
Jethen Rama
Perkone
Caldari State
#1090 - 2016-04-11 19:55:38 UTC
The problem is why you did it.

I can imagine the meeting:
Random Dev: "Boss, we noticed that people who log in every day have 66.6% higher chance of subscribing"
Boss: "Let's make them all log in at least once a day so that more people pay"

This is insane. Yes, people who log in a lot will pay for the game. It is not because they log in, it's because they LIKE IT. And as the result of liking it they both log in frequently and pay.

You want people to log in and pay for the game - make it more likable, don't bribe players with SP just to raise some meaningless statistic.
Viserys Anstian
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1091 - 2016-04-11 20:00:00 UTC
Mizhara Del'thul wrote:
You know, I don't think I fully explained why I left other MMOs with dailies in my previous posts. Let me remedy that, if you'll allow me to meander a bit.

I tend to check out each WoW expansion, a month or two after the release. I played it pretty extensively from Vanilla through Wrath, but have since barely managed to stay in a month per expansion at most. Dailies were a huge part of that, because of the following:

I 'had' to do them every day. Oh they got me to log in, but not because I wanted to have fun but because I wanted the progression it got me. More gold, more reputation, more rewards. Sure, this works fine short-term but sooner or later you hit that wall and you just can't do it anymore. So after exhausting content and no longer finding the will to do the dailies, you have that day when "Eh, I don't need to do the dailies today." and you skip logging in that day.


Exactly. I play WoW the same way now. 2-3 months to see the expansion, then I'm usually gone. Grinding dailies, grinding LFR raids to get gear to go on the real raids, to get gear to do heroic and mythic....OMG brain is bleeding. So for people like me, with maybe 1-2 hours a day to play (I used to play 5-6 hours a day, but family and life changed my priorities), feeling obligated to knock out 'dailies' before going onto the content I wanted to see, just ruined the game for me. Again, I know they were 'optional', but they always felt mandatory else I'd get left behind. So I left WoW behind because I couldn't keep up. I was never expecting with my limited play time to be able to stay in the full progression guilds, but having to spend my limit play time on dailies, ruined it for me.

I hope CCP reconsiders this.
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1092 - 2016-04-11 20:02:39 UTC
Jethen Rama wrote:
The problem is why you did it.

I can imagine the meeting:
Random Dev: "Boss, we noticed that people who log in every day have 66.6% higher chance of subscribing"
Boss: "Let's make them all log in at least once a day so that more people pay"

This is insane. Yes, people who log in a lot will pay for the game. It is not because they log in, it's because they LIKE IT. And as the result of liking it they both log in frequently and pay.

You want people to log in and pay for the game - make it more likable, don't bribe players with SP just to raise some meaningless statistic.


this is why i feel
Quote:

make them build so every day 1 rat adds to your counter but the counter never goes over 30

so say you cant log in for half a month when you do log in your counter is at 15/30 so you can go and kill 15 rats but if you stay logged off for a year its only 30/30 this still incentives logging on but its much more free for the player to do it


would be a nice middle ground as its no where near as intrusive
Ligraph
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1093 - 2016-04-11 20:08:42 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
how about make them build so every day 1 rat adds to your counter but the counter never goes over 30

so say you cant log in for half a month when you do log in your counter is at 15/30 so you can go and kill 15 rats but if you stay logged off for a year its only 30/30 this still incentives logging on but its much more free for the player to do it


this would be a way to adapt dailies to fit your game rather than just copy past and jam it in


I like this. Gives a reward for activity without players "losing" anything if they can't log in for a few days.

Also, there should be counters and rewards for PvP (aggression/weapon timer maybe), and industry (start PI cycle, use BP, maybe complete contract or sell stuff). Maybe exploration as well (hack a can).
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1094 - 2016-04-11 20:11:26 UTC
Ligraph wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
how about make them build so every day 1 rat adds to your counter but the counter never goes over 30

so say you cant log in for half a month when you do log in your counter is at 15/30 so you can go and kill 15 rats but if you stay logged off for a year its only 30/30 this still incentives logging on but its much more free for the player to do it


this would be a way to adapt dailies to fit your game rather than just copy past and jam it in


I like this. Gives a reward for activity without players "losing" anything if they can't log in for a few days.

Also, there should be counters and rewards for PvP (aggression/weapon timer maybe), and industry (start PI cycle, use BP, maybe complete contract or sell stuff). Maybe exploration as well (hack a can).


to be honest if it is just to get ppl in the game it should be the easiest damn thing possible as so it does not take anymore time than it needs keeping players free to do what they want
Ligraph
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1095 - 2016-04-11 20:13:11 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Ligraph wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
how about make them build so every day 1 rat adds to your counter but the counter never goes over 30

so say you cant log in for half a month when you do log in your counter is at 15/30 so you can go and kill 15 rats but if you stay logged off for a year its only 30/30 this still incentives logging on but its much more free for the player to do it


this would be a way to adapt dailies to fit your game rather than just copy past and jam it in


I like this. Gives a reward for activity without players "losing" anything if they can't log in for a few days.

Also, there should be counters and rewards for PvP (aggression/weapon timer maybe), and industry (start PI cycle, use BP, maybe complete contract or sell stuff). Maybe exploration as well (hack a can).


to be honest if it is just to get ppl in the game it should be the easiest damn thing possible as so it does not take anymore time than it needs keeping players free to do what they want


True. But suppose all someone does is mining and industry. Or PvP...
Sanji Taisho
Mezzanine Inc
#1096 - 2016-04-11 20:14:16 UTC
tldr
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1097 - 2016-04-11 20:16:10 UTC  |  Edited by: Lugh Crow-Slave
Ligraph wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Ligraph wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
how about make them build so every day 1 rat adds to your counter but the counter never goes over 30

so say you cant log in for half a month when you do log in your counter is at 15/30 so you can go and kill 15 rats but if you stay logged off for a year its only 30/30 this still incentives logging on but its much more free for the player to do it


this would be a way to adapt dailies to fit your game rather than just copy past and jam it in


I like this. Gives a reward for activity without players "losing" anything if they can't log in for a few days.

Also, there should be counters and rewards for PvP (aggression/weapon timer maybe), and industry (start PI cycle, use BP, maybe complete contract or sell stuff). Maybe exploration as well (hack a can).


to be honest if it is just to get ppl in the game it should be the easiest damn thing possible as so it does not take anymore time than it needs keeping players free to do what they want


True. But suppose all someone does is mining and industry. Or PvP...


then it takes about 60s to go to a belt and pop a frigate

what i'm saying is its very ez to do and takes little time

(unless what you were saying was they could do x or and not x and y if thats the case then yes i find that better)
Gary Webb
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#1098 - 2016-04-11 20:16:36 UTC
i love this idea. Its great for contrant generation. I'd like to see in the future, larger sp awards by sec status, therefor increasing the flow of players venturing into low and null for the promise of extra SP, thus creating a target rich environment! I think anything that helps players train to their goals faster is only going to make them log in more, spend more $$ (which im sure is part of CCP's motive) and best of all UNDOCK MORE! i saw someone mention in an earlier post a different reward for veterans. This i think would be a good idea as there does come a point where sp loses its value to a player. Be it a new booster that allows certIan items to be fit to ships for a short amount of time (cov ops cloak on a battleship) or something like that! just spit balling here. When you get to where I am in game, youre right in that zone where youre less inclined to log in every day as your queue is training that 57 day skill so you know you cant do anyhting new yet. I hope ccp expands on this. injectors have made things really interesting in eve again and I think this stands to do it even more. A lot of people are acting like this is going to train race x battleship to 5 overnight. this is not that. i think this is going to make for some amazingly fun fights
Lugh Crow-Slave
#1099 - 2016-04-11 20:21:28 UTC
Gary Webb wrote:
i love this idea. Its great for contrant generation. I'd like to see in the future, larger sp awards by sec status, therefor increasing the flow of players venturing into low and null for the promise of extra SP, thus creating a target rich environment! I think anything that helps players train to their goals faster is only going to make them log in more, spend more $$ (which im sure is part of CCP's motive) and best of all UNDOCK MORE! i saw someone mention in an earlier post a different reward for veterans. This i think would be a good idea as there does come a point where sp loses its value to a player. Be it a new booster that allows certIan items to be fit to ships for a short amount of time (cov ops cloak on a battleship) or something like that! just spit balling here. When you get to where I am in game, youre right in that zone where youre less inclined to log in every day as your queue is training that 57 day skill so you know you cant do anyhting new yet. I hope ccp expands on this. injectors have made things really interesting in eve again and I think this stands to do it even more. A lot of people are acting like this is going to train race x battleship to 5 overnight. this is not that. i think this is going to make for some amazingly fun fights



O.o you are joking right?

just because i had work one day you can fit a cov ops to your BB
Ligraph
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1100 - 2016-04-11 20:22:31 UTC
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Ligraph wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
Ligraph wrote:
Lugh Crow-Slave wrote:
how about make them build so every day 1 rat adds to your counter but the counter never goes over 30

so say you cant log in for half a month when you do log in your counter is at 15/30 so you can go and kill 15 rats but if you stay logged off for a year its only 30/30 this still incentives logging on but its much more free for the player to do it


this would be a way to adapt dailies to fit your game rather than just copy past and jam it in


I like this. Gives a reward for activity without players "losing" anything if they can't log in for a few days.

Also, there should be counters and rewards for PvP (aggression/weapon timer maybe), and industry (start PI cycle, use BP, maybe complete contract or sell stuff). Maybe exploration as well (hack a can).


to be honest if it is just to get ppl in the game it should be the easiest damn thing possible as so it does not take anymore time than it needs keeping players free to do what they want


True. But suppose all someone does is mining and industry. Or PvP...


then it takes about 60s to go to a belt and pop a frigate

what i'm saying is its very ez to do and takes little time

(unless what you were saying was they could do x or and not x and y if thats the case then yes i find that better)


Well I meant x and y, but x or y is probably better.