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[Feedback Request] Capital Ships in Incursions

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Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#41 - 2016-04-05 02:19:59 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Aliventi wrote:

And how do you propose that trap go down? I can't light a regular cyno in an incursion system. Taking a BlOps fleet, cynoed in at a celestial because I can't light any type of cyno in deadspace, against a fleet of titans and supers with FAX support would be slaughter? All you would have to do is put out scouts and have a emergency out cyno to be literally 99% safe. It would probably be closer to 99.99% safe in lowsec where I can't launch dictor bubbles.


Sit cloaked 30km off the beacon in a hic. Wait for the fleet to start going in, then decloak and point someone, and try to get a straggler. Orbit as far out as possible. Have someone just outside the incursion light a cyno and bridge friendlies in, or come in via WH, bring in blops BS, or bring in a crapton of bombers. Bring in more tackle. Apply dps, link killmail in local. If you fail, you lost 150M trying to kill 100B, and that's assuming you aren't able to warpoff. Keep repeating until you get luckly+good.

E: If your response is "Well, just dock up when you see a neut in local" Well, that hurts my isk efficiency as well, and acts as a balance. Plus at some point we'll assume he's gone afk, and resume running. Sit and be ready to spring your trap.

Thank you for making it painfully obvious that you have no idea how trivially easy it will be for a fleet of supers and titans to haze a Hictor. Between all the neuts, webbing and TPing fighters or Super bursts, that hictor, or group of hictors, won't last long. On top of that chances are that the ship targeted would refit to tank before your fleet arrived. Now your fleet is fighting a combat fit super and titan fleet with FAX support. That is going to get very ugly for you very quickly.

You still haven't replied to the fact that supers and titans would annihilate HQ sites at a faster pace than faction fit faction BS fleets would. I posted it on the first page.


Perhaps I didn't get my point communicated well. Your goal is not to engage the whole fleet, your goal is to separate one from the group. Yes, a hictor will die terribly to 50 supers, but your goal is to catch the last one before it activates the gate, and kill it before the fleet can get back to the gate to rescue it.

Who will he refit off of? Your goal is to separate him from his friends. Try to get a point on the guy that's slowest to align/last to take the gate. If you aren't successful, warp away, try again at the next gate.

Re the other post, I'll go find it and respond to it.
Aliventi
Southern Cross Silver Shields
Flying Dangerous
#42 - 2016-04-05 02:26:54 UTC
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Perhaps I didn't get my point communicated well. Your goal is not to engage the whole fleet, your goal is to separate one from the group. Yes, a hictor will die terribly to 50 supers, but your goal is to catch the last one before it activates the gate, and kill it before the fleet can get back to the gate to rescue it.

Who will he refit off of? Your goal is to separate him from his friends. Try to get a point on the guy that's slowest to align/last to take the gate. If you aren't successful, warp away, try again at the next gate.

Re the other post, I'll go find it and respond to it.

Then I make sure that the last thing into the site are carriers or FAXes. Incursion rats aren't going to kill a titan before the FAXes arrive. I will gladly sacrifice a FAX if it means I get out with all of my supers and titans. In essence I force you to at least fight my supers with FAX and carrier support. At that point I have the defensive reinforcement advantage.
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
CK-0FF
Intergalactic Space Hobos
#43 - 2016-04-05 02:39:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Miss 'Assassination' Cayman
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Perhaps I didn't get my point communicated well. Your goal is not to engage the whole fleet, your goal is to separate one from the group. Yes, a hictor will die terribly to 50 supers, but your goal is to catch the last one before it activates the gate, and kill it before the fleet can get back to the gate to rescue it.

Who will he refit off of? Your goal is to separate him from his friends. Try to get a point on the guy that's slowest to align/last to take the gate. If you aren't successful, warp away, try again at the next gate.

Re the other post, I'll go find it and respond to it.

Then I make sure that the last thing into the site are carriers or FAXes. Incursion rats aren't going to kill a titan before the FAXes arrive. I will gladly sacrifice a FAX if it means I get out with all of my supers and titans. In essence I force you to at least fight my supers with FAX and carrier support. At that point I have the defensive reinforcement advantage.

Another alternative: Make sure everyone is aligned down the gate and hit warp at the same time. If done properly, that only leaves 1-2 seconds where stragglers aren't in warp, which is not nearly enough time for a HIC to decloak and grab one.
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#44 - 2016-04-05 02:51:45 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
My biggest worry is the lack of risk vs. the reward. Essentially if things go south with a Subcap fleet lots of ships tend to die. I have a feeling that won't be the case with capitals running the sites. Especially since you can just sacrifice a ship and cyno everyone out.

Are you going to make Dictor and Hictor Incursion NPCs? Sure, there are a few pointing ships in these sites, but I don't think enough to keep a super or a titan tackled/keep a sieged dread or a triaged FAX tackled.

Can these sites kill a triaged FAX in a reasonable amount of time? If these sites can't kill a FAX quickly then low/nullsec incursions become virtually risk free.

Can titan's DD the rats to death? I have a feeling the AoE DD will be quite popular with these fleets if it can insta-clear waves.

Players will sit here and claim "I spent a ton of isk making this fleet therefore I deserve to have less risk." I agree with that. There is a fine line between less risk and risk-free. Ensure that this will be far from risk-free even with titans and supers and a mess of FAX on the field.


We can already sacrifice one guy and get the rest of the fleet out. Have the fleet align, and wing warp to a safe. From there, we can either warp to the station, a safe pos, hide in a safe and safe-log. Jumping out requires being at 76% cap, warping out doesn't.

None of the rats tackle hard enough to keep a super or titan tackled, but they have more then enough points to keep a dread/carrier/fax tackled. I don't believe they are adding in native tackle resistance to them.

Right now they can't kill a T2 logi, as long as it's getting reps. Faxes's biggest enemies would probably be otunis, since Otunis have a mean neut (they neut out a BS in about 6 seconds), along with Deltoles have a decent neut fitted as well. If they aren't cleared quickly, I could see them neuting out the fax, and taking it out that way. And every HQ site has 1-3 Otunis in them.

Re the DD: Someone else here reported that it doesn't work on NPCs. I'm not sure about that. But even if you can AOE DD the rats, you still have to get into position to AOE the waves. The rats spawn really far apart, this will prevent any kind of hijinks like you're thinking about. The first wave would ways have to be killed using normal means. You then have to travel 100+km to get to the spawn. Even if you had 20 titans, that each popped their AOE on one spawn, you'd have to wait for everyone to be in position, so that you could hit the spawns.

In a TPPH, all 3 rooms have rats in them when you enter, so you can't AOE those waves away. You might be able to find some way to skip the 2nd and 3rd wave using AOE, but you'd first have to travel 70km to the spawn points before triggering the next wave. You could possibly AOE the 2nd and 3rd waves, but you then have ot do the towerbash still. I don't think that will be a problem.

In a NRF, You have the inital spawn for wave 1, then wave 2 spawns in 2 different locations, about 80km and 120km from the gate. Wave 3 spawns in 2 locations about 120km and 140km from the gate. Wave 4 spawns about 120km from the gate and 200km off the gate. So you'd have to get in position first, then AOE the waves in order. I don't see how this would be faster then just blapping the rats like normal. Maybe it might be useful for wave 4, but then you'll be stuck in position for 1 minute without the rest of your fleet there.

in a TCRC, AOE doesn't matter, you have to do a tower bash. What matters is applied damage to the tower that's 70km away from the entrance.
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#45 - 2016-04-05 02:58:11 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Perhaps I didn't get my point communicated well. Your goal is not to engage the whole fleet, your goal is to separate one from the group. Yes, a hictor will die terribly to 50 supers, but your goal is to catch the last one before it activates the gate, and kill it before the fleet can get back to the gate to rescue it.

Who will he refit off of? Your goal is to separate him from his friends. Try to get a point on the guy that's slowest to align/last to take the gate. If you aren't successful, warp away, try again at the next gate.

Re the other post, I'll go find it and respond to it.

Then I make sure that the last thing into the site are carriers or FAXes. Incursion rats aren't going to kill a titan before the FAXes arrive. I will gladly sacrifice a FAX if it means I get out with all of my supers and titans. In essence I force you to at least fight my supers with FAX and carrier support. At that point I have the defensive reinforcement advantage.


Okay, so your suggestion is the attacker gets to drop 100+ bombers/blops BS/whatever on the carrier/fax instead of the super/titan with the trap? So the attacker only gets to kill a 1b isk ship with every site?
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#46 - 2016-04-05 03:01:05 UTC  |  Edited by: Plaid Rabbit
Miss 'Assassination' Cayman wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Perhaps I didn't get my point communicated well. Your goal is not to engage the whole fleet, your goal is to separate one from the group. Yes, a hictor will die terribly to 50 supers, but your goal is to catch the last one before it activates the gate, and kill it before the fleet can get back to the gate to rescue it.

Who will he refit off of? Your goal is to separate him from his friends. Try to get a point on the guy that's slowest to align/last to take the gate. If you aren't successful, warp away, try again at the next gate.

Re the other post, I'll go find it and respond to it.

Then I make sure that the last thing into the site are carriers or FAXes. Incursion rats aren't going to kill a titan before the FAXes arrive. I will gladly sacrifice a FAX if it means I get out with all of my supers and titans. In essence I force you to at least fight my supers with FAX and carrier support. At that point I have the defensive reinforcement advantage.

Another alternative: Make sure everyone is aligned down the gate and hit warp at the same time. If done properly, that only leaves 1-2 seconds where stragglers aren't in warp, which is not nearly enough time for a HIC to decloak and grab one.


I wouldn't underestimate how talented some dictor pilots are. Wait to see the gate animation, decloak, and spam lock everything, with your infinipoint overheated. Also don't underestimate how bad some super pilots are. So your plan is to risk your 20b isk ship, on the fact you can press your warp button within 1 second of everyone else?

E: Sorry if I'm sounding a bit sarcastic. I just don't see this as a viable way to always get into the site safely, but healthy debate is always a good thing.
Aliventi
Southern Cross Silver Shields
Flying Dangerous
#47 - 2016-04-05 03:05:19 UTC  |  Edited by: Aliventi
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Perhaps I didn't get my point communicated well. Your goal is not to engage the whole fleet, your goal is to separate one from the group. Yes, a hictor will die terribly to 50 supers, but your goal is to catch the last one before it activates the gate, and kill it before the fleet can get back to the gate to rescue it.

Who will he refit off of? Your goal is to separate him from his friends. Try to get a point on the guy that's slowest to align/last to take the gate. If you aren't successful, warp away, try again at the next gate.

Re the other post, I'll go find it and respond to it.

Then I make sure that the last thing into the site are carriers or FAXes. Incursion rats aren't going to kill a titan before the FAXes arrive. I will gladly sacrifice a FAX if it means I get out with all of my supers and titans. In essence I force you to at least fight my supers with FAX and carrier support. At that point I have the defensive reinforcement advantage.


Okay, so your suggestion is the attacker gets to drop 100+ bombers/blops BS/whatever on the carrier/fax instead of the super/titan with the trap? So the attacker only gets to kill a 1b isk ship with every site?

Except you blew your load and didn't kill a super or a titan. Go ahead and try again. I know you are there now I will keep track of you. A billion isk is what? The cumulative payout of 1-2 sites? That's trivial. Ignorable. "Everyone send your last payout to X." Problem solved. While you are trying to reset I will keep running sites. My cumulative income will outweigh your killing ability.

This is the post I wanted you to reply to. Try and focus on your claims that burning long ranges will makes this less profitable vs. my proof that supers and titans won't have to burn at all and your claims that titan's can't hit frigate and cruiser NPCs vs. proof that they can with ease.
Sabriz Adoudel
Move along there is nothing here
#48 - 2016-04-05 03:58:23 UTC
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I'm apprehensive about this.

It could be a very big ISK faucet if an incursion spawns in a tightly locked down corner of sov null and it is actually feasible to rat in AoE-specced titans.

I would be 100% in favor of testing it on TQ for a month but removing it if it proves problematic.

I'd be more in favor of a new site designed to accommodate subcap fleets with capital support, and another site that's more oriented to capital/super fleets with subcap support.


The incursions spawn in random locations, and despawn after about a week. So people couldn't setup a magic farm in the back corner of the map and farm it for a year.

And AoE titans might work, but you'd have to get into the middle of the spawn. The spawns are far enough apart the fact that you have to burning to them would prevent doing the sites in a broken way. TPPHs require about 200km of travel, NRFs require about 120 KM of travel (to bomb half the wave, but not the full wave), TCRCs just require a bunch of dps applied to the tower.

E: Oh, and yes, I'd say put it on TQ, if it gets abused horribly, fix it, by either removing it, or addressing the problem.

E: And I think dedicated cap site to get people undock is a great idea. I'm hoping this will be a starting point to tell CCP that we want some more capital content, and this could be a starting point for them considering it more seriously.



I wasn't suggesting that people would have permanent incursion farms, instead I was suggesting that every time one spawned in one of those sorts of places it would be a massive faucet for a short time.

Actual mechanics of how supercaps would clear the sites are something that people who currently rat in supers would know more about than me.

I support the New Order and CODE. alliance. www.minerbumping.com

Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#49 - 2016-04-05 04:03:08 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
86 mil isk tick Avatar would like to disagree.

Range doesn't seem to be an issue. Which means I don't really need to burn 150km. I just need to burn from gate to gate. Which will be pretty easy with MWDs. Not only that but fighters/Fighter Bombers will cover that distance in no time. I imagine supers will complete these sites in a matter of minutes.

Cynos can't be lit incursion systems at all. Covert cynos can't be lit in deadspace sites. So hot drops are out of the question. Instead, I have to throw subcaps at you. Which won't end well against titans that are tracking NPC frigates. Or you could just have an escape cyno permanently lit so when a real fleet comes in you just cyno everyone out because the incursion rats won't have enough points to tackle you. My only real shot would be to try and catch you when you warp to a new site. Seeing how I can't cyno in to the system at all, due to the incursion cyno jam, you will likely see my fleet coming from at least a system or two away. Using BlOps cynoed in to a celetial and warped to the site would be pretty lol seeing how CCP hasn't rebalanced BlOps BS. I would be trying to fight supers with FAX support with BlOps BS, SoE ships, T3 logi, and stealth bombers. That's not going to end well. It will be even safer in lowsec where I can't dictor bubble. I guess it is possible, but only if you truly screw up.

Except you would only have to triage is someone truly messed up due to the base EHP of titans and supers with slave implants. Which would be a rarity seeing how quickly a fleet of titans (which is larger than normal because you need fewer logi) would decimate these sites. Heck you could not use FAX or logi at all and just have the titan/super warp out to a pre-triaged FAX who will rep you up in no time and get you back into the fight. Not like you will be pointed enough by the incursion rats anyway.

And who will stop PL, NCdot, Goons, etc. from doing this? They have more supers than most groups in game. Which means only they can really counter each other's super fleet. Seeing how it would be in the best interest to OTEC the s**t out of this I doubt anyone will lose supers running incursions. You would have to be utterly brain dead or make a massive mistake to lose supers running incursions. Smaller groups won't really be able to form the subcaps to fight a fleet of supers. Seems pretty risk free to me.


Incursion rats have a much lower sig then normal rats, so they tend to act a bit differently then standard rats. Can you give me the Avatar's gun resolution/tracking/optimal/falloff/dps of those guns so I can do a more detailed comparison?

The optimal range image you linked me doesn't show it's tracking. I'm sure you can push out that far you stack optimal, but what does that to to your tracking (But it's at least pulse, so there's a chance to get that working). That's only 4500 dps. That is 4x the DPS of a normal incursion Nightmare. It's less then 2x of a incursion Vindicator. And doesn't provide long-range webs. Yes it's better, but not game-breakingly so. It's also 50x more expensive.

I think you missed my point of getting one guy separated from the group. Do you not think it's possible to get one guy separated from the group, or do you think it's not possible to kill them once they are separated before help arrives? Try getting 60 people to not jump through a gate, then get them to all jump through the gate all within the same tick. You'll see how hard it is. You only need (or want) one straggler to get caught in your trap.

The sites are already getting completed in a matter of minutes, this is something I think you're missing. Good groups can do a TCRC in under 8 minutes, payout-to-payout, which is the time from completing a site, to completing the next site, and all the travel involved in it. There's enough traveling involved to prevent things from becoming terribly overpowered. Some of these sites are doable in 480 seconds. Time efficiency is already important. Every 40 seconds added to the site time is a ~11% loss in isk/hr. Aligning down the gate and taking the gate alone accounts for ~30 seconds. Warping to the next site adds in another ~60s. That gives you ~390 seconds in site. Yes, bringing a titan in will be faster. But your guns still have to cycle, you still have to lock targets. You can only Blap the site so hard. Even with 60 Titans doing a TCRC, assuming they apply 100% damage to the target... they'll take the 8 minute site to about 6. (the MTAC still has to burn to the MTAC factory before you can apply DPS, we've had 4 fleets contesting a TCRC, and still didn't put a dent into it). So with a fleet 50x more expensive then what they use in hisec, you can make about 30% more isk/hr.

PS: I also can't wait for 60 titans being in one incursion to be the start of the next B-R.

I do agree it'll be safer in lowsec, but there's a lot more neuts running around in lowsec as well. More people to track your patterns, and it's less unusual for there to be a neut in local. More chances that neut is ready to attack you.

I don't see PL and Goons cooperating on anything right now. But if that happens, go run the mothership in something like cruisers or T3s. That will cause the incursion to despawn and shut down the incursion, cutting off their money making.



Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#50 - 2016-04-05 04:05:05 UTC
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Aliventi wrote:
Plaid Rabbit wrote:
Perhaps I didn't get my point communicated well. Your goal is not to engage the whole fleet, your goal is to separate one from the group. Yes, a hictor will die terribly to 50 supers, but your goal is to catch the last one before it activates the gate, and kill it before the fleet can get back to the gate to rescue it.

Who will he refit off of? Your goal is to separate him from his friends. Try to get a point on the guy that's slowest to align/last to take the gate. If you aren't successful, warp away, try again at the next gate.

Re the other post, I'll go find it and respond to it.

Then I make sure that the last thing into the site are carriers or FAXes. Incursion rats aren't going to kill a titan before the FAXes arrive. I will gladly sacrifice a FAX if it means I get out with all of my supers and titans. In essence I force you to at least fight my supers with FAX and carrier support. At that point I have the defensive reinforcement advantage.


Okay, so your suggestion is the attacker gets to drop 100+ bombers/blops BS/whatever on the carrier/fax instead of the super/titan with the trap? So the attacker only gets to kill a 1b isk ship with every site?

Except you blew your load and didn't kill a super or a titan. Go ahead and try again. I know you are there now I will keep track of you. A billion isk is what? The cumulative payout of 1-2 sites? That's trivial. Ignorable. "Everyone send your last payout to X." Problem solved. While you are trying to reset I will keep running sites. My cumulative income will outweigh your killing ability.

This is the post I wanted you to reply to. Try and focus on your claims that burning long ranges will makes this less profitable vs. my proof that supers and titans won't have to burn at all and your claims that titan's can't hit frigate and cruiser NPCs vs. proof that they can with ease.


That still kills your isk efficiency. And also you now likely have hostiles camping in local. Do you want to go to the next site with a 100 man fleet in local?
Plaid Rabbit
Enlightened Industries
Goonswarm Federation
#51 - 2016-04-05 04:09:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Plaid Rabbit
Sabriz Adoudel wrote:
I wasn't suggesting that people would have permanent incursion farms, instead I was suggesting that every time one spawned in one of those sorts of places it would be a massive faucet for a short time.

Actual mechanics of how supercaps would clear the sites are something that people who currently rat in supers would know more about than me.


If you compare it to the hisec incursion faucet, it'd still be next to nothing. Hisec incursions are run non-stop 23/7, by 100+ pilots at once. When you get the lucky drop in your backyard, why not let the people take a bit of money out of it.

And even if you figure some way of totally OP through the incursions that I don't know of, and do them twice as fast as hisec, so what? It's pilots, undocked in low/null, ready to be shot. If you don't want to shoot them, fine, that's your choice, but at least they don't have concord there to rescue them. That still provides a decent balance.
Zappity
New Eden Tank Testing Services
#52 - 2016-04-05 06:30:38 UTC
More caps out in space doing stuff is good. Players tempted from highsec to low and null is good.

Idea is good.

Zappity's Adventures for a taste of lowsec and nullsec.

Oxide Ammar
#53 - 2016-04-05 07:15:29 UTC
Zappity wrote:
More caps out in space doing stuff is good. Players tempted from highsec to low and null is good.

Idea is good.


You are god damn right, The moment they implement this I'll be packing my stuff and head to nullsec LOL.

Anyway who ever think this will make you print isk faster is out of his mind, we are rolling TCRC in hisec in less than 10 mins and in ships costs more than fitted carrier so I don't know what you all talking about, Have you ever saw titan or super aligning and warping from site to site before ( usually incursion sites are 30+ AU away from the sun ) ? I could go make myself a sandwich and come back and my capital still didn't finished warping. Therefore wasted time between aligning/warping and clearing sites are balanced, I'm sure it will be more lucrative than it is right now but not by far ridiculous amount.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

Anthar Thebess
#54 - 2016-04-05 07:23:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
What about NPC Null missions - let me lose a ratting carrier - open all gates.
Maybe introduce lvl 5 pirate missions.
Andy Koraka
State War Academy
Caldari State
#55 - 2016-04-05 08:20:13 UTC  |  Edited by: Andy Koraka
I like the idea and it wouldn't really be overpowered at all using capitals.

Highsec incursion fleets routinely blitz the Vanguard sites in 5-10 minutes, and a capital fleet running the sites is hard limited by their 5 minute siege/triage cycles which seems pretty fair by comparison.

My only reservation is that if people commit capitals to an incursion site for the 'easy' ISK they should be stuck there until the site is completed, perhaps by a structure in the site that infinite-points any caps/supers on grid until after the payout trigger.
Morrigan LeSante
Perkone
Caldari State
#56 - 2016-04-05 08:25:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Morrigan LeSante
You'd have to make it so they couldn't jump out.

edit: To be clear, they'd have to gate out of the incursion effect. Otherwise a simple scout will wreck any realistic chance of catching them.


And honestly, I'm not bothered if they clear it faster, that devalues the highsec ones - that's actually a good thing.
Archeras Umangiar
Nobody exists on purpose. Nobody belongs anywhere.
We're all going to die.
#57 - 2016-04-05 10:47:08 UTC
Bluemelon wrote:
ok

Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#58 - 2016-04-05 11:10:34 UTC
Why risk capitals in Incursions, when you could take carriers and make 200m/hr in FHubs?
Oxide Ammar
#59 - 2016-04-05 11:18:36 UTC
Syrias Bizniz wrote:
Why risk capitals in Incursions, when you could take carriers and make 200m/hr in FHubs?


I'm sure you can make more ISK/LP doing incursion in capitals for TCRC and NRF but as for TPPH it is gonna be pain as hell for first 2 rooms.

Lady Areola Fappington:  Solo PVP isn't dead!  You just need to make sure you have your booster, remote rep, cyno, and emergency Falcon alts logged in and ready before you do any solo PVPing.

Syrias Bizniz
some random local shitlords
#60 - 2016-04-05 12:36:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Syrias Bizniz
nvm