Player Features and Ideas Discussion

Well tbh tossing insults is what you did with my post to start with, unless you think that calling someone a "spineless carebear without any understanding of the game" when you're clearly wrong and proven so one post later is not insulting. Maybe I should have responded by calling you a spineless liar, but I think that would be insulting, unless you think that's just stating of the facts like your spineless carebear? Anyway.

The thing is - it seems that these discussions always end up in generalizations and mud slinging with very few people willing to try and step away from their entrenched position and looking at the greater picture. Now, believe it or not, in my posting history on these forums I've really tried to provide very detailed arguments why I think bumping (and some other things about ganking, in particular freighter ganking) is broken but there was very little civil discussion from the other side. I have participated in all imaginable mechanics for getting bumped ffreighters out of a bumping situation and know exactly what it takes in terms of effort to manage to get it out. One thing I've learnd and it is a fact anyone who participated in fleets aimed at saving freighters can tell you - it takes much more effort, skill and luck to get out of the bump LEGALY than it takes to bump. With a good bumper it is extremely hard, with two good bumpers it is impossible. Now, if that is not a broken mechanic, then I really don't know how to define one.

What is more important, this whole time the issue is not whether there are some ways of getting out of the bump, the issue is whether its current use in terms of freighter bumping was intended and if it wasn't, if its acceptable/good for the game. Any comparisons with situations in 'standard' pvp environoments are silly. Noone keeps a capital 'tackled' in lowsec or nullsec by means of bumping for any considerable amount of time, so how can you compare those situations to hisec bumping with a straight face?

One thing that ticks me off is - supporters of bumping quite often talk about risk-consequence nature of eve, lazy gameplay of carebear/miners etc. Well with bumping and fleet hanger looting gankers get minimal risk, minimal consequences, lazy gameplay and all the rewards (in form of loot and/or easy kills). And please don't tell me that the actual bumping and killing is not easy. Yes, it tkes time and organisation to setup gank ship stashes, you need to have enough folks ready to respond to your pings (not an issue with largest coalition in game in reality) but the act of ganking is extremely undemanding in terms of skill. As I said, the only guaranteed way of getting out of the bump is ganking the bumper and even that gank takes more skill then ganking the freighter.

Finally, I don't mind ganking in any shape or form, but right now some aspects of it - in particular fregihter ganking - are clearly in need of changing/fixing. Furthermore, people have proven that it is possible to gank without bumping (see Russians) so I don't understand why all the hype about the potential changes/removal of it.

The greater picture shows it not to be a problem, so why bother with a change for something that is not a problem.

It takes 1 additional character to reduce the risk of being bumped to an extremely low level.

That's just a reality, backed by objective data from the largest freight service in the game.

So it seems to me, it's both sides that can't step away from their entrenched position and look at the greater picture. Avoiding being bumped in the first place is extremely easy. Objectively proven to be so. The issue is so small, that it isn't worth all this argument.

I copied what you called yourself. If you didn't want that to happen you shouldn't have brought the attitude.





Good luck looting a freighter full with a DST.

I just said what is the usual reaction of the pro-bumping crowd. You kind of jumped onto that wagon with your reaction.


It is very rarely a 'full' drop as you (likely) well know. Even if it is (and not in packages) you will either use multiple DST runs or get a freighter next to dst to 'clear' the loot. Either way my point stands - no risk for the looter.

You have to be ready for it when it does happen, doesn't matter how rare it is. a good bulk of feighter drops are too large for any other ship even with a chunk of the cargo evaporating.



Aside from the fact that they have a limited window to act before both the faction police and concord kill them, they are open to attack by everyone, the looting ship used can be attacked, the gank ships themselves are profitable to gank, the freighter can be webbed into warp near instantly, the freighter can escape via warping to a ship 150km in front of where its getting bumped, logisics can save the freighter, wartargets, ecm, blap escorts, counter bumping, pre spawning concord, shooting the target wreck.

Instawarps and tacticals, suicide tackles on the gates, pre-spawned concord (drawn away from the gates) making response times longer, using multiple bumpers, using eccm, changing vector of the bump every now and then.
Shooting the target wreck is one of the few reliable counters which got people quite wound up, true.

Those things are hard? Oh well...

Orchestrating, managing and supplying groups of that size is no small feat. You were complaining about how its ganking on 'easy mode', but what does that make piloting a freighter? 'Even easier mode'? And then you still want to turn hauling into 'even easier than easier mode'?

Yes this is about more than a mechanic being good or bad, because balance trumps that. As does the fact that there has been no solution presented that doesn't break the game else where. That's what looking at the bigger picture really means.

Not every mechanic in the game is perfect. Look at ecm or afk cloaking. But you cant rip the mechanic out without any thought for balance or gameplay implications.

Your arguments fall apart like this every time yet you continue with rubbish such as ganking has no risk/consequences despite the fact anyone with an IQ over 60 can clearly see its the single most punished and risky activity in highsec. You have been given plenty of ways to beat the gankers, as well as statistics that show you are more likely to be involved in a traffic accident than be ganked in EVE. Your own laziness, greed and stupidity is no excuse to further remove content from an already content starved area of space.

No, that is straight up ignorance.