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Balancing bumping and looting mechanics

First post
Author
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#241 - 2016-01-29 01:43:20 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:

Does this really occur frequently in freighter ganks that the catalysts loot and eject before dying?


Nope, that is a lie and an oft repeated falsehood of the anti ganking "community".

Pretty sure it was invented by the same guy who devised the "open fifty instances of the in game browser to crash your client when you get tackled" trick. That one was funny, because I'm pretty sure it actually got one of them banned for trying it.

Every gank I've ever been on, they just straight up looted the freighter afterward.

Quote:

With a freighter carrying 1 million m^3 approximately, why are we even talking about this as an issue at all?


Because the anti gankers hope that if they tell enough lies eventually one of them will stick.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#242 - 2016-01-29 02:13:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhamnousia Nosferatu
baltec1 wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:

Those things are hard? Oh well...


Your arguments fall apart like this every time yet you continue with rubbish such as ganking has no risk/consequences despite the fact anyone with an IQ over 60 can clearly see its the single most punished and risky activity in highsec. You have been given plenty of ways to beat the gankers, as well as statistics that show you are more likely to be involved in a traffic accident than be ganked in EVE. Your own laziness, greed and stupidity is no excuse to further remove content from an already content starved area of space.


Dunno where you get the idea that I want content removed from hisec, I'm trying to provide additional by focusing on bumping and safe looting here. Try and stay focused too.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#243 - 2016-01-29 02:14:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Double post 😑
Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#244 - 2016-01-29 02:15:11 UTC
Looting a freighter with catalysts would take a while. They have to loot the wreck, jettision and then loot from the wreck into their can. They can only jettison one can per minute, bearing in mind you've had 20 seconds to shoot these guys as well, and even if each catalyst fills its can, its gonna take a while for whatever comes for those cans to scoop them all. During which it is vulnerableto being bumped and shot (or shoot or scoop the cans. Maybe they should be blue).

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#245 - 2016-01-29 02:18:21 UTC
You were just telling people to look at the bigger picture...

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#246 - 2016-01-29 02:19:28 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:

Dunno where you get the idea that I want content removed from hisec


Because you want to remove content from highsec.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Scipio Artelius
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#247 - 2016-01-29 02:22:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
I'm trying to provide additional by focusing on bumping and safe looting here. Try and stay focused too.

What safe looting?

How do they do this? As per the OP's explanation?

Maybe you can post different figures to what I posted on the previous page then that shows that this is an issue?

In addition, why is the looting in a gank, any safer or otherwise from any other looter in highsec?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#248 - 2016-01-29 02:59:33 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Lesovyk Mara wrote:
Meanwhile, I'll just keep webbing my Freighter pilot into warp and not worry about bumping at all.

I pass through Uedama, Niarja and Madirmilire daily and even when there are Mach's on gate, it's never a problem. The webs are too quick.

It's not raining in my backyard, that must mean it's not raining anywhere on planet Earth. Right?
Wrong analogy.
A proper analogy would be as follows.

Gankers and safest haulers: "There is always a chance of rain, so I shall don my rain coat and use an umbrella."

Anti gankers and not so safe haulers: "There may be rain, but I shall chance it anyway in my shorts and T -shirt. But later I will pray to god and ask him to abolish rain completely, there is simply no reason why I should get wet."

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#249 - 2016-01-29 03:29:21 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
John E Normus wrote:
Buy a 10 million isk permit from your nearest New Order agent, obey the Code and enjoy one year of bump and gank free game play!

I strongly recommend you put a message of support for James 315, the Supreme Protector and Saviour of Highsec, in your bio.

Good talk, fly safe!



Thanks for highlighting another problem! But that's another thread. :)


He is not the problem. You are. You are your own problem. Might want to look to that.



Ganker calm down.


I don't gank freighters...well except for various Burn XXXXX events. As I said, you are the problem. Figure out what you are doing wrong and fix it.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#250 - 2016-01-29 09:14:39 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
I'm trying to provide additional by focusing on bumping and safe looting here. Try and stay focused too.

What safe looting?

How do they do this? As per the OP's explanation?

Maybe you can post different figures to what I posted on the previous page then that shows that this is an issue?

In addition, why is the looting in a gank, any safer or otherwise from any other looter in highsec?


TBH, I don't think I've seen what OP describes in practice. Admittedly, I have not been so active in anti-ganking fleets recently so something might have changed.

Safe looting I was refering to involves use of a ship with fleet hanger (DST or Orca, 50k m3) and a disposable alt. You get them into fleet, open fleet hanger for fleet members, land them next to a wreck (they usually come along with the ganking crew) and use disposable alt to transfer loot to dst. The disposable alt gets tagged as a suspect but DST (ship holding the actual loot) is flag-free and warps off. It is easy and extremely safe for the looter/ganker. Now, fixing this mechanic would open MORE (not less) content as looters would have to time their moves better, HICs would become a truly useful anti-ganking/anti-looting tool and there would be some actual risk involved in the act of looting. See, content for all involved, and that's what we all want more of - risk and content, right? Right!?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#251 - 2016-01-29 10:22:57 UTC
Ahh so it has to be a disposable alt? Not just an alt, but a disposable alt? (I posted the word twice, was that enough?)

I also find it funny that that the AG crowd complain about easy hauler kills, but apparently a DST sat waiting to be filled is too safe. Ironic.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#252 - 2016-01-29 10:47:36 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Ahh so it has to be a disposable alt? Not just an alt, but a disposable alt? (I posted the word twice, was that enough?)

I also find it funny that that the AG crowd complain about easy hauler kills, but apparently a DST sat waiting to be filled is too safe. Ironic.


Not to mention the fact that this supposedly easier than AFK flying a freighter activity suddenly just gained yet another step (a step that wont work as no matter how hard you try 165k-1.2 million m3 will not fit into a ship with 40k easily or quickly, especially if its a package or of its lumbering around with freight containers) to being successful and require yet another person. So now we have upwards of 31 working on the gankers side vs 1 semi AFK hauler.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#253 - 2016-01-29 10:53:17 UTC
Mag's wrote:
Ahh so it has to be a disposable alt? Not just an alt, but a disposable alt? (I posted the word twice, was that enough?)

I also find it funny that that the AG crowd complain about easy hauler kills, but apparently a DST sat waiting to be filled is too safe. Ironic.
I too always find this funny. They go on and on about "easy kills" and "no risk" and then beg CCP to make bumpers and looters to be made suspect so they can shoot them like fish in a barrel from behind the protection of CONCORD. It brings a smile to my face each time.

Don't get me wrong, looting stolen goods should be a conflict driver and I wouldn't mind it if something was changed so it could lead to more fights, but the lack of awareness of the irony of asking CCP to make it easier to shoot defenseless industrial ships is delicious.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#254 - 2016-01-29 11:25:19 UTC
baltec1 wrote:
Mag's wrote:
Ahh so it has to be a disposable alt? Not just an alt, but a disposable alt? (I posted the word twice, was that enough?)

I also find it funny that that the AG crowd complain about easy hauler kills, but apparently a DST sat waiting to be filled is too safe. Ironic.


Not to mention the fact that this supposedly easier than AFK flying a freighter activity suddenly just gained yet another step (a step that wont work as no matter how hard you try 165k-1.2 million m3 will not fit into a ship with 40k easily or quickly, especially if its a package or of its lumbering around with freight containers) to being successful and require yet another person. So now we have upwards of 31 working on the gankers side vs 1 semi AFK hauler.


Actually, the numbers are quite often about 12-15ish (judging by ts numbers on teamspeak :P).

For startes DST fleet hanger has 50k m3 (at max skill even more but for some reason 50k is maximum allowed for transfer). DST is not waiting, it lands with gankers and yes - it is quite safe since those ganking ships will also engage anything else within their range once freighter is down. You should seriously brush up on current ganking practices.

Even if it was not the case, one question remains - why should one be forced into becoming a criminal to fight criminals in hisec? You guys are arguing this constantly as if it is something natural and logical and even consider the fact that a situation in which becoming the criminal is the only guaranteed way of stopping a bump is completely acceptable and normal while in fact it is imbalanced against people who do not want to engage in a criminal lifestyle in the game. No one's preventing you to do what you want and bear the consequences, but forgive me (and others) for not seeing how fighting you should have the same set of consequences in what is supposed to be high security space. Your despise towards the carebears, pvp awerse folks in this game and even those who simply disagree with you is palpable, but I truly don't understand it.

Also, try focusing on the subject instead of constantly going off topic - remember, it is not ganking we're discussing, it is bumping and safe looting (and yes, it is safe if the hauler has no repercussions from taking stolen goods). If you want number comparisons - to be able to bump indefinitely you need two accounts which will negate anything freighter (with two accounts) can dish out (webbing alts included). This is a fact which has been proven time and time again by your kind.

Finally, removal of both things discussed in this thread (fleet hanger looting and bumping) would in no way remove freighter ganking from the game, it would only make it more consequence laden and active in terms of gameplay - exactly the things you are constantly asking from the other side.
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#255 - 2016-01-29 11:43:13 UTC  |  Edited by: baltec1
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:


For startes DST fleet hanger has 50k m3 (at max skill even more but for some reason 50k is maximum allowed for transfer). DST is not waiting, it lands with gankers and yes - it is quite safe since those ganking ships will also engage anything else within their range once freighter is down. You should seriously brush up on current ganking practices.


You have a few second cover before concord have killed all of it.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:

Even if it was not the case, one question remains - why should one be forced into becoming a criminal to fight criminals in hisec?
You don't, you just ignore all of the other options.



Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:

Also, try focusing on the subject instead of constantly going off topic - remember, it is not ganking we're discussing


Of course its ganking being talked about, you want to nerf tactics used by gankers to make yourself even safer despite the fact that its super easy to avoid in the first place.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:

Finally, removal of both things discussed in this thread (fleet hanger looting and bumping) would in no way remove freighter ganking from the game, it would only make it more consequence laden and active in terms of gameplay - exactly the things you are constantly asking from the other side.


It is yet another nerf to an already over nerfed activity and falls into the "just one more nerf" argument that has been so destructive to highsec content over the years. Its always the same, you damand nerf after nerf after nerf until the activity becomes impossible and vanishes all together. This is what has happened to profitable barge ganking and jecan thiefs, both of which no longer exist.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#256 - 2016-01-29 11:54:10 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:

Even if it was not the case, one question remains - why should one be forced into becoming a criminal to fight criminals in hisec?


You aren't forced to.

What you want is to kill the non criminals, the bumper especially, without having to gank them.

You want to have your cake and eat it too, which will never happen. If you refuse to use all the options available to you, your gameplay should be limited, simple as that.

Don't like it? Then man up and become a real player.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

ISD Max Trix
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#257 - 2016-01-29 13:04:12 UTC
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Lyma Sarum
Doomheim
#258 - 2016-01-29 15:38:52 UTC
For those taking some time to answer to me politely thank you. But many people in here seem to have a great difficulty separating the pilot/capsuleer from the actual player. I noticed enough posts and answers (not concerning just me) holding a "Well if you can't handle it its your problem, uninstall, carebear" etc etc. I don't get it. This is supposed to be an "ideas discussion". There seems to be more forum warrior-ing going on rather than discussion. It's worse than the kids raging about their mobas in reddit.

It is very sad to see a community holding such a toxic attitude but its a free world and a sandbox game so I will not ***** more about it. You have kinda convinced me however that this game is probably not for me. I also like to kick my friends or anyone's face in any pvp environment but when talking as a player I can leave the nerd rage in the game. This is very irregular here. And I also thank you for that. I know what to expect if I manage to stay in EVE.

Maybe this was the wrong forum to post as a newb and so I got what was coming? I don't know. Maybe I am too old for this and should've stopped in UO. I hope you get something positive out of all this discussion in the end.
Black Pedro
Mine.
#259 - 2016-01-29 16:27:00 UTC
Lyma Sarum wrote:
For those taking some time to answer to me politely thank you. But many people in here seem to have a great difficulty separating the pilot/capsuleer from the actual player. I noticed enough posts and answers (not concerning just me) holding a "Well if you can't handle it its your problem, uninstall, carebear" etc etc. I don't get it. This is supposed to be an "ideas discussion". There seems to be more forum warrior-ing going on rather than discussion. It's worse than the kids raging about their mobas in reddit.
Perhaps some of the context you are missing is that Eve is an ancient game - almost 13 years old - which is really old by almost anyone's standards which means this discussion, which is essentially should the game be made safer, has be hashed, re-hashed, and then hashed again many, many times. Since Eve is a competitive sandbox game, almost any change made has a direct and profound influence on the balance of the game and of the players in it. That is not to say changes should never be made, but it is extremely common for players to come to these forums and suggest an "idea" which primarily benefits them at the expense of other players, rather than a change that is truly beneficial for everyone and is consistent with the type of game CCP is trying to develop. Haulers have been coming to these forum for over a decade suggesting that things be made safer for them, which of course is a direct detriment to the players who hunt them in the game (an activity the developers explicitly intend to exist).

Therefore you end up with yet another incarnation of this thread which has people on one side arguing that their game should be tilted in their favour and the other guy's game made harder because they have it too easy, and the other side saying that no, their game is actually hard enough, and the other side is just whining. Sometimes one side is correct, sometimes the truth is somewhere in the middle, but often things get heated as both sides see the other side is being unreasonable.

In this case, bumping has been here since the dawn of the game and debated endlessly and the developer has even ruled that it is a legal mechanic in the game. With those facts, you can see why those that frequent the forums get tired of hearing the same complaint over bumping raised each month (granted, usually by different or new people) and when no actual "idea" is presented other than some module that eliminates the mechanic entirely like the OP in this thread, accuse the poster of whining. In the end that is the game, and if you don't like it, your only option is not play. By all means, if you have a novel idea on how to make the game better you can present it, but if you are just going to complain about a legal and established mechanic then expect to catch some heat and accusations of trying to change the game in your favour.

Lyma Sarum wrote:
It is very sad to see a community holding such a toxic attitude but its a free world and a sandbox game so I will not ***** more about it. You have kinda convinced me however that this game is probably not for me. I also like to kick my friends or anyone's face in any pvp environment but when talking as a player I can leave the nerd rage in the game. This is very irregular here. And I also thank you for that. I know what to expect if I manage to stay in EVE.

Maybe this was the wrong forum to post as a newb and so I got what was coming? I don't know. Maybe I am too old for this and should've stopped in UO. I hope you get something positive out of all this discussion in the end.
There are plenty of other games out there, most of which are less competitive and cut-throat than Eve. For many of us that is what drew us to this game and why we are so passionate about protecting it, but Eve isn't for everyone, so I am sure you will have no problem finding another game to play. You will be much happier finding that game which suits you better instead of spending your life futilely arguing on these forums in an attempt to lobby the developers to change Eve to what you want it to be like so many players here do.

Like a bad relationship, it is much better to break away cleanly and find someone who suits you better and you enjoy spending your time with, than to spend all your energies trying to change them into your ideal mate.

Brad Neece
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#260 - 2016-01-30 02:16:38 UTC  |  Edited by: Brad Neece
Balancing Looting...
1. Looted items themselves being tagged for trigger for suspect....if the original looter is still on suspect/criminal timer.

2. The items that drop from criminals fits and original cargo should be allowed to be taken freely without going Suspect.....except the looted items they may have taken as Concord finishes them off.

3. Fleet Hanger owners must accept looted items before they are dropped into ship and take a Suspect Timer for it

Avoid having to manually allow it, by having safety yellow....but still go Suspect once its dropped in.

4. Can't loot after attempting to start Warp To/Dock.....Or a least no looting after speed to get to warp is above 25%.


This gives risk to all looters.