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Balancing bumping and looting mechanics

First post
Author
KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#1 - 2016-01-26 02:21:05 UTC
CCP has done a wonders trying to keep this complex ever changing game mechanics in balance over the years. There are two items that I (and others) see as out of balanced and are being abused by some.


1st - I know the act of bumping is not a reason an exploit, however the people who do the bumping can and often do (in High sec) bump someone for 30-60 minutes or more!! Holding them hostage with the police in clear site with no repercussion. Even having a webber does not mean they will be able to get away prior, once the bumping has started, there is very little anyone can do to help. This can be done at many neighboring system gates all at the same time. Waiting indefinitely for a gank fleet, or just holding hostage and harassing a user.

Solutions... there have been a number in posts in the forums and Redit that have solutions to this problem. This includes an "emergency macro jump drive" concept, or after so much shield to shield contact to a freighter at a gate/asteroid belt/station, it would cause concord to give a temporary "strong inertia damping shield" around the 2 ships preventing them from having any effects of bumping for a time. I just recently thought of this solution. Or perhaps there is a low slot for an Inertia damping module, that when activated, will reduce the effects of a bump. Again, there can be a activation timer to delay the start of the damping field (to give a limited time window for gankers). These are just some options, a bigger conversation needs to happen to bring a BALANCE (Important word).



2nd - Looting. When the gankers did get a target they would have to have a freighter loot it if it was of value. They timed things down to get away before people could lock them. This was fair. Now, when they gank, when the target pops, the criminal catalysts start to loot and eject the loot before Concord can pop them. Their hauler comes in scoops the ejected loot and flys away not Flashy Yellow.

Solution - A Criminal can't loot a ship
Or
Solution2 - Then if they eject the loot, since they were under a suspect timer, it is yellow loot to everyone as well (while unable to access another ships cargohold).

If they want it... they have to risk it, Risk the same thing they did to the freighter before. Can one ship survive the attack of many? Is it worth it? How much loot dropped. Etc..




I am not against the mechanic of ganking, it is part of the charm and danger of Eve. It just needs to be balanced so that the gankers who are all -10 to start with, (and flying cheap ships) risk very little, for a large reward.

Speaking of -10, One last question to ponder: How is a -10 any different then say a -7? Really they are not any different. Can measures be put into place that makes things harder for the "hardened criminal"? Aggressive Concord? Random Special Anti-Criminal patrols that can respond quicker then concord? Unable to dock at all?

I am not saying my ideas are the ones to go with (though the inertia shield / module is a good concept I think! :) ) I just think this needs a hard look from both sides of the field here along with CCP to really make the game balanced.

Thanks!

KT
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#2 - 2016-01-26 02:33:34 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:


I am not against the mechanic of ganking, it is part of the charm and danger of Eve. It just needs to be balanced so that the gankers who are all -10 to start with, (and flying cheap ships) risk very little, for a large reward.



It's already balanced. What you mean is, "It just has to be made so even the mouth-breathing imbeciles who typically get ganked in freighters won't be victims of their own laughable incompetence anymore."

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Shallanna Yassavi
Imperial Academy
Amarr Empire
#3 - 2016-01-26 02:36:01 UTC
Safe logoff gets you away from the bumper if nobody's taking a shot at you, because there's no combat timer. That said, you're not allowed to just bump someone without taking a shot at them, or a ransom demand.

A signature :o

KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#4 - 2016-01-26 02:43:54 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:


I am not against the mechanic of ganking, it is part of the charm and danger of Eve. It just needs to be balanced so that the gankers who are all -10 to start with, (and flying cheap ships) risk very little, for a large reward.



It's already balanced. What you mean is, "It just has to be made so even the mouth-breathing imbeciles who typically get ganked in freighters won't be victims of their own laughable incompetence anymore."


No, they are also gankable, if there is a fleet ready... It will force those that gank to select their targets more selectively. Not just harass 3 or 4 freighters trying to ransom them (then still potentially gank them) on different gates in limbo for 30-60 minutes.
KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#5 - 2016-01-26 02:46:45 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Safe logoff gets you away from the bumper if nobody's taking a shot at you, because there's no combat timer. That said, you're not allowed to just bump someone without taking a shot at them, or a ransom demand.


RIght, but the gankers do shoot them... they send in a sacrifice ship to agress. Then the freighter warps, and then they scan them down.... then they gank.

Logging off is not any help now days.
Iain Cariaba
#6 - 2016-01-26 03:09:45 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Safe logoff gets you away from the bumper if nobody's taking a shot at you, because there's no combat timer. That said, you're not allowed to just bump someone without taking a shot at them, or a ransom demand.


RIght, but the gankers do shoot them... they send in a sacrifice ship to agress. Then the freighter warps, and then they scan them down.... then they gank.

Logging off is not any help now days.

Apparently you're unaware of a simple little fact. Freighter pilots who have scouts, webbing escorts, and avoid autopiloting don't get bumped and ganked. Unless they're really unlucky, a freighter isn't going to get bumped in the less than 5s it takes a webbing escort to lock and apply webs.

As a person who's had the same Charon for years now, I say there's nothing wrong with bumping. You just have to stop expecting to pilot a capital ship without an escort.
Thorian Baalnorn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#7 - 2016-01-26 03:15:58 UTC  |  Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn
Maybe an extra low slot on freighters and give them a module that negates the bump effect up to anything smaller than a carrier. . You know most of them are going to use that slot for more expanders. So its a fair trade off. You can either make your ship less vulnerable to ganking and bumping or you can makes yourself a bigger target. Maximum profits/ lower overhead comes at a higher risk. Everyone wins. Those bothered by bumping can remove the issue and those trying to get maximum amount of goodies just became bigger targets.

If you lose your freighter because you got ganked then should of used bulkheads instead of expanders

Personally i think damage controls should be allowed on freighters

Sometimes you are the squirrel and sometimes you are the nut. Today, you are the nut and the squirrel is hungry.

KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#8 - 2016-01-26 03:53:26 UTC  |  Edited by: KickAss Tivianne
Iain Cariaba wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Safe logoff gets you away from the bumper if nobody's taking a shot at you, because there's no combat timer. That said, you're not allowed to just bump someone without taking a shot at them, or a ransom demand.


RIght, but the gankers do shoot them... they send in a sacrifice ship to agress. Then the freighter warps, and then they scan them down.... then they gank.

Logging off is not any help now days.

Apparently you're unaware of a simple little fact. Freighter pilots who have scouts, webbing escorts, and avoid autopiloting don't get bumped and ganked. Unless they're really unlucky, a freighter isn't going to get bumped in the less than 5s it takes a webbing escort to lock and apply webs.

As a person who's had the same Charon for years now, I say there's nothing wrong with bumping. You just have to stop expecting to pilot a capital ship without an escort.



As a person who has seen countless Charons being bumped by a Mach that can go 2000k/s, unless you get a good warp in placement, once you are starting to be bumped, it is really difficult to get away. Especially with bulkheads, which decreases your agility, but giving you that much needed HP. Then even enter the 2nd bumper that comes in. I have seen that for high value cargo. Or they must just be bored. Once you get bumped, chances of getting away is reduced.

BTW, they have scouts also to watch and then the Mach show up on gate and jump though with you.

Im glad you have good luck with things! But that is more the exception then the rule.
Thorian Baalnorn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#9 - 2016-01-26 04:47:19 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Safe logoff gets you away from the bumper if nobody's taking a shot at you, because there's no combat timer. That said, you're not allowed to just bump someone without taking a shot at them, or a ransom demand.


RIght, but the gankers do shoot them... they send in a sacrifice ship to agress. Then the freighter warps, and then they scan them down.... then they gank.

Logging off is not any help now days.

Apparently you're unaware of a simple little fact. Freighter pilots who have scouts, webbing escorts, and avoid autopiloting don't get bumped and ganked. Unless they're really unlucky, a freighter isn't going to get bumped in the less than 5s it takes a webbing escort to lock and apply webs.

As a person who's had the same Charon for years now, I say there's nothing wrong with bumping. You just have to stop expecting to pilot a capital ship without an escort.



As a person who has seen countless Charons being bumped by a Mach that can go 2000k/s, unless you get a good warp in placement, once you are starting to be bumped, it is really difficult to get away. Especially with bulkheads, which decreases your agility, but giving you that much needed HP. Then even enter the 2nd bumper that comes in. I have seen that for high value cargo. Or they must just be bored. Once you get bumped, chances of getting away is reduced.

BTW, they have scouts also to watch and then the Mach show up on gate and jump though with you.

Im glad you have good luck with things! But that is more the exception then the rule. Though you would probably not be targeted by the gankers in highsec based on your Alliance. So that helps you. :)


The bulkheads are suppose to make it harder to be ganked...IE: need more gankers to kill the target in the same amount of time. But honestly ganking highsec freighters should not be a profitable job.

And why would i not be targeted in highsec based on my alliance?

Sometimes you are the squirrel and sometimes you are the nut. Today, you are the nut and the squirrel is hungry.

KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#10 - 2016-01-26 05:02:43 UTC
Thorian Baalnorn wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Safe logoff gets you away from the bumper if nobody's taking a shot at you, because there's no combat timer. That said, you're not allowed to just bump someone without taking a shot at them, or a ransom demand.


RIght, but the gankers do shoot them... they send in a sacrifice ship to agress. Then the freighter warps, and then they scan them down.... then they gank.

Logging off is not any help now days.

Apparently you're unaware of a simple little fact. Freighter pilots who have scouts, webbing escorts, and avoid autopiloting don't get bumped and ganked. Unless they're really unlucky, a freighter isn't going to get bumped in the less than 5s it takes a webbing escort to lock and apply webs.

As a person who's had the same Charon for years now, I say there's nothing wrong with bumping. You just have to stop expecting to pilot a capital ship without an escort.



As a person who has seen countless Charons being bumped by a Mach that can go 2000k/s, unless you get a good warp in placement, once you are starting to be bumped, it is really difficult to get away. Especially with bulkheads, which decreases your agility, but giving you that much needed HP. Then even enter the 2nd bumper that comes in. I have seen that for high value cargo. Or they must just be bored. Once you get bumped, chances of getting away is reduced.

BTW, they have scouts also to watch and then the Mach show up on gate and jump though with you.

Im glad you have good luck with things! But that is more the exception then the rule. Though you would probably not be targeted by the gankers in highsec based on your Alliance. So that helps you. :)


The bulkheads are suppose to make it harder to be ganked...IE: need more gankers to kill the target in the same amount of time. But honestly ganking highsec freighters should not be a profitable job.

And why would i not be targeted in highsec based on my alliance?


That was for Iain Cariaba... seems to roll with big corps such as Goonswarm Federation, so I can see why in Highsec he might not get ganked.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#11 - 2016-01-26 05:40:21 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:


That was for Iain Cariaba... seems to roll with big corps such as Goonswarm Federation, so I can see why in Highsec he might not get ganked.


You think Goonswarm, which typically has at least half a dozen wardecs against them, is given some sort of leeway in high sec? Lol

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Thorian Baalnorn
State War Academy
Caldari State
#12 - 2016-01-26 06:18:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Thorian Baalnorn
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:


That was for Iain Cariaba... seems to roll with big corps such as Goonswarm Federation, so I can see why in Highsec he might not get ganked.


You think Goonswarm, which typically has at least half a dozen wardecs against them, is given some sort of leeway in high sec? Lol




There KB says they do quite well on freighter ganking. When you got 20 plus DPS heavy talos roaming for freighters most ( probably all) wardeccers are going to run for the docks. Wardeccers dont like to fight pvpers, they want to gank miners, indy and trader alts, etc. You know characters with high isk value and low to no dps and likely no pvp skills. Fighting 20 plus DPS heavy Talos is scary stuff to a wardeccer.

Sometimes you are the squirrel and sometimes you are the nut. Today, you are the nut and the squirrel is hungry.

SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#13 - 2016-01-26 06:41:19 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Thorian Baalnorn wrote:
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:


That was for Iain Cariaba... seems to roll with big corps such as Goonswarm Federation, so I can see why in Highsec he might not get ganked.


You think Goonswarm, which typically has at least half a dozen wardecs against them, is given some sort of leeway in high sec? Lol




There KB says they do quite well on freighter ganking.


One of the more tedious parts about these arguments is the endless non sequiturs. The assertion had nothing to do with their efficacy in executing ganks.

The assertion was that Goonswarm would not BE ganked. Goonswarm has lost a couple JFs in high sec in the past 7 days, making the assertion demonstrably false. That doesn't even account for the sane ones who had the good sense to at least use NPC corp freighter pilots.

Quote:

When you got 20 plus DPS heavy talos roaming for freighters most ( probably all) wardeccers are going to run for the docks. Wardeccers dont like to fight pvpers, they want to gank miners, indy and trader alts, etc. You know characters with high isk value and low to no dps and likely no pvp skills. Fighting 20 plus DPS heavy Talos is scary stuff to a wardeccer.


That's a really cool story that completely ignores that, on average, GS does, in fact, get completely **** on in HS wars.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Black Pedro
Mine.
#14 - 2016-01-26 08:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Black Pedro
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Solutions... there have been a number in posts in the forums and Redit that have solutions to this problem. This includes an "emergency macro jump drive" concept, or after so much shield to shield contact to a freighter at a gate/asteroid belt/station, it would cause concord to give a temporary "strong inertia damping shield" around the 2 ships preventing them from having any effects of bumping for a time. I just recently thought of this solution. Or perhaps there is a low slot for an Inertia damping module, that when activated, will reduce the effects of a bump. Again, there can be a activation timer to delay the start of the damping field (to give a limited time window for gankers). These are just some options, a bigger conversation needs to happen to bring a BALANCE (Important word).

Why do these proposals never have anything to do with balance even when they are claimed to? These proposals are almost always just ways to isolate players from hostile interactions, more specifically ways to allow a player to solo pilot a capital ship with no fear for interdiction. How does giving freighters a button to escape PvP with no help and no effort make anything better?

If you want to replace bumping you need start from the ground up. Design a system where capital ships in highsec can be tackled without CONCORD insta-blapping the aggressor. Then add in ways for the friends of the freighter pilot to rescue the ship, which in turn can be countered by the other side. Then you have a proper game mechanic which still maintains the intended trade-offs for flying the best-in-class hauler, while allowing for more interesting game play to develop than the current status quo.

So -1 on the unoriginal "make freighters immune to bumping" suggestion.

KickAss Tivianne wrote:
2nd - Looting. When the gankers did get a target they would have to have a freighter loot it if it was of value. They timed things down to get away before people could lock them. This was fair. Now, when they gank, when the target pops, the criminal catalysts start to loot and eject the loot before Concord can pop them. Their hauler comes in scoops the ejected loot and flys away not Flashy Yellow.

Solution - A Criminal can't loot a ship
Or
Solution2 - Then if they eject the loot, since they were under a suspect timer, it is yellow loot to everyone as well (while unable to access another ships cargohold).

If they want it... they have to risk it, Risk the same thing they did to the freighter before. Can one ship survive the attack of many? Is it worth it? How much loot dropped. Etc..
I fail to see the problem here. If the Catalysts are already criminal you can just shoot them. If they eject the loot into another jetcan, you can just take the loot if you want it, just like you can take the loot from the original wreck if you want it. If you want that loot you are intended by the game mechanics to have to take a suspect flag for doing so just like the gankers do. Why should the game be changed so you can hide behind the protection of CONCORD while interfering with intended piratical game play?

If you want the loot you have "to risk it" as you say. HTFU and just take it and suffer the consequences of a suspect flag like the gankers do every day.

So -1.

KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Speaking of -10, One last question to ponder: How is a -10 any different then say a -7? Really they are not any different. Can measures be put into place that makes things harder for the "hardened criminal"? Aggressive Concord? Random Special Anti-Criminal patrols that can respond quicker then concord? Unable to dock at all?
Yup, that's exactly what we need: more NPC enforced consequences on intended game play. Look, if you don't like gankers then shoot them. Ganking has been nerfed so hard that it is trivial to protect yourself from almost all risk to them in today's highsec. We do not need more penalties or consequences that are enforced only by NPCs so other players can pay less attention to the game and spend their time in highsec watching Netflix.

Perhaps there are some changes that can make the granularity of security status have more meaning, but piling on more NPC-enforced consequences does nothing other than make an intended profession more tedious. Any ideas should involve other players. So, -1.

Total score: -3. Suicide ganking is intended game play. If you have new ideas on how to stimulate conflict between criminals and law enforcement, or make the conflict more interesting many people would like to hear it. If you are just going to come to the forums as ask that the game be tilted in your favour and that the NPCs do all the work for you in defeating the criminals, you can keep that whining for the Anti-Ganking channel and stop wasting everyone's time.
Scipio Artelius
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#15 - 2016-01-26 09:02:12 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Safe logoff gets you away from the bumper if nobody's taking a shot at you, because there's no combat timer. That said, you're not allowed to just bump someone without taking a shot at them, or a ransom demand.

You can't safe log if you are being targetted, so the bumping ship only needs to yellow box to prevent a safe log. No shooting necessary.

However shooting from a sacrifice ship achieves a 15min aggression timer which keeps the freighter in space even if the pilot just logs off.

Kickass Tivianne wrote:
know the act of bumping is not a reason an exploit, however the people who do the bumping can and often do (in High sec) bump someone for 30-60 minutes or more!!

I see the 30-60 min figure used a lot, but from watching the gank intel channel when my alt is hauling in highsec, I never see it going for that long.

It always seems to be much shorter then that, but that's only my experience.

How often does the 30-60 minutes really happen?
Anthar Thebess
#16 - 2016-01-26 09:19:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Anthar Thebess
I don't like bumping.
Not because it is used in higsec to bump freighters, but because ships don't get any damage from it.

Excluding this fact, bumping mechanic is very interesting thing to use at the same time all across to eve.
People not only bump freighters in higsec, but also supers out of towers that had password leaked.
People bump capped out supers and capitals blocking them from warping off, as they lost tackle.
How many times i bumped or someone bumped my ship out of undock in nullsec station.
Some people even fly without scram or point and have enough skill to keep cruiser sized ship on field using this mechanic.

You probably lost a freighter on one of your alts. This is fine, ships in EVE needs to be destroyed, as this is a thing that keeps whole eve industry running.

Have you heard about DST?
- 60.000 m3 of cargo.
- Can mount cloak
- Can mount MJD
- Can fit tank, and get up to 1mil EHP , and very easily around 300k of EHP
- Align fast

Eve is about good and bad choices.
You need to prepare yourself for all stuff that can happen, and fly ships you can afford to lose.
Ralph King-Griffin
New Eden Tech Support
#17 - 2016-01-26 10:47:47 UTC
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
That said, you're not allowed to just bump someone without taking a shot at them, or a ransom demand.

yes you are.

where did you read this?
Iain Cariaba
#18 - 2016-01-26 10:49:20 UTC  |  Edited by: Iain Cariaba
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Iain Cariaba wrote:
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
Shallanna Yassavi wrote:
Safe logoff gets you away from the bumper if nobody's taking a shot at you, because there's no combat timer. That said, you're not allowed to just bump someone without taking a shot at them, or a ransom demand.


RIght, but the gankers do shoot them... they send in a sacrifice ship to agress. Then the freighter warps, and then they scan them down.... then they gank.

Logging off is not any help now days.

Apparently you're unaware of a simple little fact. Freighter pilots who have scouts, webbing escorts, and avoid autopiloting don't get bumped and ganked. Unless they're really unlucky, a freighter isn't going to get bumped in the less than 5s it takes a webbing escort to lock and apply webs.

As a person who's had the same Charon for years now, I say there's nothing wrong with bumping. You just have to stop expecting to pilot a capital ship without an escort.



As a person who has seen countless Charons being bumped by a Mach that can go 2000k/s, unless you get a good warp in placement, once you are starting to be bumped, it is really difficult to get away. Especially with bulkheads, which decreases your agility, but giving you that much needed HP. Then even enter the 2nd bumper that comes in. I have seen that for high value cargo. Or they must just be bored. Once you get bumped, chances of getting away is reduced.

BTW, they have scouts also to watch and then the Mach show up on gate and jump though with you.

Im glad you have good luck with things! But that is more the exception then the rule.

I underlined the key point in your statement.

Yes, once you start getting bumped you're pretty much hosed. However, the fact your totally overlooking in the attempt to justify this terribad idea is that the 2000m/s Machariel cannot get up to speed and get to the Charon to bump it in the less than 5s it takes a webbing frigate to apply webs to a freighter. How long you can get bumped is totally irrelevant to the fact that, if you're flying smart, it's nearly impossible to start getting bumped.

According to EveHQ's ship fitter, a Hyena with 3 t2 webs in the mids, which will insta-warp any freighter, can lock a freighter in just over a second, then apply the webs out to 26km with Electronic Attack Ships skill trained to 4. For most gates, that's enough range to apply webs to your freighter if it arrives in system on the opposite side of the gate from the hyena. For the regional gates that have the jump in point further away, the freighter holds gate cloak while the hyena burns back to gate. That 2000m/s Mach you're so afraid of simply cannot get up to speed and get to you before the freighter is gone.

This is why bumping is balanced. Yes, once the bump starts you can't really get out of it, but if you bring escorts for your highsec capital ship, it's nearly impossible for the bump to start.
Arya Regnar
Darwins Right Hand
#19 - 2016-01-26 10:49:25 UTC
Fly a jump freighter and just jump out if you get bumped.

Bumping is balanced and perfectly counter-able.

Also please use search function next time, this thread is redundant repost.

EvE-Mail me if you need anything.

baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#20 - 2016-01-26 10:49:28 UTC
In response to that Talos comment, all gank ships are profitable to gank. In fact the Talos is more profitable to gank than the hulk used to be.
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