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Balancing bumping and looting mechanics

First post
Author
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#181 - 2016-01-27 20:52:58 UTC
Lyma Sarum wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Takari wrote:


Possible bad idea incoming:

Stabilizing Jets. Your ship cannot be moved unless bumped by a combined mass greater than a percentage of your ships mass (increasing percentage for meta or tech II variants?), but in exchange it increases your align time by 20% (Or Decreases cargo capacity by 10% two possible modules? )

This way if you're caught by the entire gank fleet, you're still not going anywhere but if one guy catches you, he's about to be brick walled?



If they are good enough to prevent a MWD mach from bumping a freighter (battleship mass * MWD mass bonus) then they will prevent any capital ship from ever being meaningfully bumped unless you cyno/jump something "inside" of it. This could generate some issue. Binary effect of modules are also rarely really liked like how stabs are just a pass/fail mechanic for being pointed.

I guess the easy solution, if ever applied this way, is : "Stabilizing Jets - Can only be fitted in Freighters and Industrials."


The special: I really, really made some bad decisions/actions and now I need a get out of fail free card then?

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#182 - 2016-01-27 20:54:23 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:

Hell, using a MWD just while aligning will likely make bumping that much more difficult even if it extends your align time...hitting a fast moving target is harder than a slow lumbering target.


While I absolutely agree with the rest, I'll point out that a good enough bumper makes this untrue. I've seen people knock MWD'ing Skiffs halfway across a grid pretty consistently.


So if you want to be a pro-bumper...practice on MWDing skiffs. P

Good to know.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#183 - 2016-01-27 21:01:37 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
KickAss Tivianne wrote:

1st - I know the act of bumping is not a reason an exploit, however the people who do the bumping can and often do (in High sec) bump someone for 30-60 minutes or more!!

[snip]

2nd - Looting. When the gankers did get a target they would have to have a freighter loot it if it was of value. They timed things down to get away before people could lock them. This was fair.


You know the juxtaposition of these two is simply astonishing to me as the second part negates the first part.

Apparently it did not dawn on the OP that the gankers have somehow figured out a magical way of avoiding bumping.

Seems to me we are left with two conclusions:

1. People getting bumped in freighters are inept at playing the game.
2. People getting bumped were foolish and reckless and being bumped then ganked is the result of being foolish and reckless.

Funny how the supporters never show up and defend people being foolish and reckless in other areas. I think jumping my JF around should come with a 5 minute immunity timer so that way I can be protected for being a dumb. Ratting in a carrier should come with a 400km protection zone so that any ship warping to the anomaly I am in should have to burn the remaining 400km. And I demand that all my ships in NS get a warp bubble immunity. In fact, we should just remove bubbles entirely. And I want the a button in game so that when ratting if I need to go AFK I can press the button and my ship becomes completely invulnerable except to the rats…which of course I’ve thoroughly tanked my ship against.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Scipio Artelius
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#184 - 2016-01-27 21:33:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Scipio Artelius
Lyma Sarum wrote:
Interesting post, but it seems that instead of offering some positive criticism, there are people that prefer to yell "please don't touch my cookie". I get it. If I was making a profit out of ganking I guess I would say the same.

So my main concern is this: I started EVE very recently (about 1month) and I was interested in going the haulers way until I got enough ISK to start an industry/research/hauling corp. I quickly found out that in order to haul effectively I need 1 or 2 extra accounts (scouts,webbers) or some people I will always drag around depriving them off their fun and all of this just to have a slim chance of avoiding a group of multi accounts that are having their fun. Yes it really seems they take advantage of game mechanics because they are kind of broken/obsolete (?) but still the fact remains.

First, welcome to the game. It's probably worth reading back through the million other threads on this issue before concluding that people prefer to yell "please don't touch my cookie".

The same people that are frustrated that this same thing is coming up yet again have offered constructive criticism in the past, provided good advice to help haulers and pointed out all the flaws and exploits of suggestions, only to be ignored or told they are lying. There's only so many times you can discuss something reasonably while being accused of being a bully, sociopath or equivalent to a RL rapist, before you get frustrated and begin to treat others the same way you are treated.

So, don't be too harsh on the critics here. The hard line has developed because they've been continually attacked over the years.

In relation to your point about needing multiple accounts to counter multiple accounts, CCP banned input multiplexing late last year, making coordinated multiboxing attacks more difficult, however Eve has always been a game where players can have multiple characters logged in at the same time.

A couple of years ago there was a tournament where 1 guy ran a full team of 8 characters by multiboxing (New Eden Open II). He lost every match and was eliminated at the first stage. He struggled because multiboxing, no matter how good you are, is no match for multiple players working together.

So it's not necessary to have multiple accounts if you don't want. It's more enjoyable (for most people) and much more effective to make friends and all work together. That could even be a shared purpose that would help get your Corp aspirations off the ground.

Alternatively, if you stay away from the main trade routes, your risk of being ganked drops significantly. Join the Haulers Channel in game and the mailing list. There are always lots of short trips that pay ok and you'll never see a ganker if you take those contracts.

Lyma Sarum wrote:
Can I play this game with one account without paying for other people to play? Because from where I am looking at it, it seems I cannot.

Absolutely you can and the figures from CCP suggest that many people do.

From figures published by CCP Quant last year, two-thirds of all players have only 1 account, which by definition means they can only have 1 character online at a time:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/-xRb5GQzAaoA/VejxJFChpBI/AAAAAAAAANE/YS4DBbWqJ2M/s1600/250%2B%25233.png

86% of all players have 2 or less accounts, 94% have 3 or less and by the time you get to 97% of the player base, it's 4 or less accounts. The idea of large multiboxing gank fleets isn't the normal situation. They are the outlying cases. The total average accounts per player is only 1.5 across the player base and that has been stable for more than a decade:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-bPYAEHB9LeY/VemKSoWiXSI/AAAAAAAAANc/N03vaX3zzMo/s1600/250%2B%25231.png

So absolutely you can play the game with one account. Most players do and the idea of an army of alts is one of those things we all assume is true, but when you look at the actual data, it turns out to be a false belief.

Lyma Sarum wrote:
There is 0 (zero) balance when it comes to a new player coming in and like me wants to haul. Even if I am not afk what stops a multigank and bumper from getting me? And I am not asking for blah blah if this and that info. I am asking about MY options as a solo new hauler when while traveling I start getting bumped and a gank is soon incoming.

As a new player, the best thing you can do is find an experienced player and learn from them.

Hauling doesn't have to be less safe for you just because you are new. It will be less safe because you don't yet have an in depth knowledge of the game. There's the gap you need to fill. Knowledge, not safety. Once you have the knowledge, you can be as safe as any veteran.
Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#185 - 2016-01-27 21:59:25 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
rabble rabble


Funny how you tend to equate bumping with ganking.
Take away bumping and freighter ganking is still 100% viable, just not so easy mode as it is right now.
Mag's
Azn Empire
#186 - 2016-01-27 22:25:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Mag's
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
rabble rabble


Funny how you tend to equate bumping with ganking.
Take away bumping and freighter ganking is still 100% viable, just not so easy mode as it is right now.

I have used the same freighter and full T2 cargo fit BR since both were introduced into the game. Used through systems including lowsec. In other words. It's never been easy mode to catch me.

If you think some freighter kills are to easy mode right now, then may I suggest you help those players play the game correctly and stop being easy kills.

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#187 - 2016-01-27 23:26:36 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
rabble rabble


Funny how you tend to equate bumping with ganking.
Take away bumping and freighter ganking is still 100% viable, just not so easy mode as it is right now.


And whos fault is that? When it's the haulers that determine how easy and profitable they themselves are to gank.

Call it easy mode as much as you want, but it's still more effort than haulers put into their playstyle and its defense.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#188 - 2016-01-27 23:39:51 UTC
Scipio Artelius wrote:
Lyma Sarum wrote:
There is 0 (zero) balance when it comes to a new player coming in and like me wants to haul. Even if I am not afk what stops a multigank and bumper from getting me? And I am not asking for blah blah if this and that info. I am asking about MY options as a solo new hauler when while traveling I start getting bumped and a gank is soon incoming.

As a new player, the best thing you can do is find an experienced player and learn from them.

Hauling doesn't have to be less safe for you just because you are new. It will be less safe because you don't yet have an in depth knowledge of the game. There's the gap you need to fill. Knowledge, not safety. Once you have the knowledge, you can be as safe as any veteran.


What Scipio said. You are going to die in this game. Just accept it and more importantly learn from it. After you get killed ask yourself, “What could I have done differently to have avoided dying?” If you can’t answer the question, ask other players in the game you associate with and see if they know. Or…and while this may sound weird, e-mail one or some of the guys who killed you. If you are decent/polite about it they might actually give you some advice, but don’t be surprised if they don’t.

You have a steep learning curve ahead of you, but it can be a fun one at the same time. Just keep looking at each death as a learning experience.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#189 - 2016-01-27 23:50:03 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
rabble rabble


Funny how you tend to equate bumping with ganking.
Take away bumping and freighter ganking is still 100% viable, just not so easy mode as it is right now.


You know that thing is a two way street....right?

AFK, autopiloting overloaded freighter going through a heavily traversed choke point system...talk about easy mode. Roll

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#190 - 2016-01-27 23:53:10 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
rabble rabble


Funny how you tend to equate bumping with ganking.
Take away bumping and freighter ganking is still 100% viable, just not so easy mode as it is right now.


You know that thing is a two way street....right?

AFK, autopiloting overloaded freighter going through a heavily traversed choke point system...talk about easy mode. Roll


Especially from a self professed "white knight" (and by the way, why would anyone ever admit to being such a thing?) who spends all their time defending the two lowest common denominators in the entire MMO industry. Mining, and hauling.

You know, two playstyles with about ten clicks per hour of activity.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#191 - 2016-01-28 00:00:58 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
rabble rabble


Funny how you tend to equate bumping with ganking.
Take away bumping and freighter ganking is still 100% viable, just not so easy mode as it is right now.


You know that thing is a two way street....right?

AFK, autopiloting overloaded freighter going through a heavily traversed choke point system...talk about easy mode. Roll


Especially from a self professed "white knight" (and by the way, why would anyone ever admit to being such a thing?) who spends all their time defending the two lowest common denominators in the entire MMO industry. Mining, and hauling.

You know, two playstyles with about ten clicks per hour of activity.


Hey now, I’ve been known to mine on occasion…in a skiff with as heavy a tank as I can put on it. I go with the model of how to not be eaten by a bear…I don’t have to run faster than the bear, just faster than the other guy. I figure if I sacrifice mining yield in favor of tank…it will be other guy who didn’t that will get “eaten” and I’ll scoot on off the station in the mean time.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#192 - 2016-01-28 00:05:26 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

Hey now, I’ve been known to mine on occasion…in a skiff with as heavy a tank as I can put on it. I go with the model of how to not be eaten by a bear…I don’t have to run faster than the bear, just faster than the other guy. I figure if I sacrifice mining yield in favor of tank…it will be other guy who didn’t that will get “eaten” and I’ll scoot on off the station in the mean time.


Yeah, and I'm actually an expert hauler, but that doesn't mean I don't recognize the gameplay for what it is.

Without the threat of other players to drive more action on my part, it would be the easiest gameplay out there.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Rhamnousia Nosferatu
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#193 - 2016-01-28 00:30:01 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
... self professed "white knight"... defending ... Mining, and hauling.

Buddy, give me some of that stuff you're having.

Teckos Pech wrote:
AFK, autopiloting overloaded freighter going through a heavily traversed choke point system...talk about easy mode. Roll

Again, take away bumping, ganking such freighters is still as viable as ever. Where's the problem?
Mag's
Azn Empire
#194 - 2016-01-28 02:05:10 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Teckos Pech wrote:
AFK, autopiloting overloaded freighter going through a heavily traversed choke point system...talk about easy mode. Roll

Again, take away bumping, ganking such freighters is still as viable as ever. Where's the problem?
Again, use a scout and get webbed and end up almost guaranteed to haul without getting killed. If you can't use a scout or no friends are available, then use a BR. Where's the problem?

But let me guess, just one more nerf and it will be balanced?

Destination SkillQueue:- It's like assuming the Lions will ignore you in the Savannah, if you're small, fat and look helpless.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#195 - 2016-01-28 02:13:08 UTC
The problems are:

- Ganking is rare enough as it is. If anything we should be turning back some nerfs to breathe some life back into the hauling profession. This would reward good pilots over bad.

- The only reason you want bumping to go is to allow yourself to be lazy or because you have a hatred for the ganking playstyle. No good argument has been made. Ever.

- There has been no proposal made to end bumping for ganks that does not ruin the game in other areas.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

John E Normus
New Order Logistics
CODE.
#196 - 2016-01-28 02:50:11 UTC
Buy a 10 million isk permit from your nearest New Order agent, obey the Code and enjoy one year of bump and gank free game play!

I strongly recommend you put a message of support for James 315, the Supreme Protector and Saviour of Highsec, in your bio.

Good talk, fly safe!

Between Ignorance and Wisdom

KickAss Tivianne
Lohengrin Legion
#197 - 2016-01-28 03:40:08 UTC  |  Edited by: KickAss Tivianne
John E Normus wrote:
Buy a 10 million isk permit from your nearest New Order agent, obey the Code and enjoy one year of bump and gank free game play!

I strongly recommend you put a message of support for James 315, the Supreme Protector and Saviour of Highsec, in your bio.

Good talk, fly safe!



Thanks for highlighting another problem! But that's another thread. :)
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#198 - 2016-01-28 03:46:51 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
... self professed "white knight"... defending ... Mining, and hauling.

Buddy, give me some of that stuff you're having.

Teckos Pech wrote:
AFK, autopiloting overloaded freighter going through a heavily traversed choke point system...talk about easy mode. Roll

Again, take away bumping, ganking such freighters is still as viable as ever. Where's the problem?


Dammit Mag's beat me too it.

Just because ganking freighters is made easy by players who can't take even the most basic precautions (a scout in a noob ship), doesn't mean we should make it even easier to be bad and avoid the potential repercussions.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#199 - 2016-01-28 03:48:18 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
The problems are:

- Ganking is rare enough as it is. If anything we should be turning back some nerfs to breathe some life back into the hauling profession. This would reward good pilots over bad.

- The only reason you want bumping to go is to allow yourself to be lazy or because you have a hatred for the ganking playstyle. No good argument has been made. Ever.

- There has been no proposal made to end bumping for ganks that does not ruin the game in other areas.


Agreed. There are in game mechanics to avoid ganking the biggest issue with these mechanics is that they require team work...but oh look...the gankers use team work.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#200 - 2016-01-28 03:49:21 UTC
KickAss Tivianne wrote:
John E Normus wrote:
Buy a 10 million isk permit from your nearest New Order agent, obey the Code and enjoy one year of bump and gank free game play!

I strongly recommend you put a message of support for James 315, the Supreme Protector and Saviour of Highsec, in your bio.

Good talk, fly safe!



Thanks for highlighting another problem! But that's another thread. :)


He is not the problem. You are. You are your own problem. Might want to look to that.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online