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Player Features and Ideas Discussion

 
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Balancing bumping and looting mechanics

First post
Author
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#161 - 2016-01-27 15:57:49 UTC
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Rhamnousia Nosferatu wrote:

Anything that can be used to avoid bumping can be fairly easily countered - webber is countered by a cruiser suicide tackling the freighter while first bump lands. From there, it's usually gg for the freighter.


Essentially, what you are saying is that if the gankers "team" put more effort in it than the gankee's team, then they have better odds of winning. I'm pretty sure that's EVE working as intended.

I never really liked how bumping works but every single "solution" the the "problem" ever proposed usually involve a **** load of problems down the line so I just decided to accept how it is.


No, what I'm saying is that once the first bump lands, you're pretty much f****d and you can do very little if nothing to change that, particularly if you want to get out of it in a way which will not result with criminal flags / killrights for non-ganker side. Being able to essentially perma-bump a freighter while using just two chars without any consequences whatsoever for the bumping character is not 'putting more effort', it is simply wrong. The fact that (quite often) you can extract loot safely is also wrong.
The fact that some guys are so bitter about any discussion related to changing such mechanics is moderately amusing.


Fly a battleship into their bumper. Congrats you just stopped the bumping, Web that freighter to freedom.
Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#162 - 2016-01-27 16:00:10 UTC
Takari wrote:


Possible bad idea incoming:

Stabilizing Jets. Your ship cannot be moved unless bumped by a combined mass greater than a percentage of your ships mass (increasing percentage for meta or tech II variants?), but in exchange it increases your align time by 20% (Or Decreases cargo capacity by 10% two possible modules? )

This way if you're caught by the entire gank fleet, you're still not going anywhere but if one guy catches you, he's about to be brick walled?



If they are good enough to prevent a MWD mach from bumping a freighter (battleship mass * MWD mass bonus) then they will prevent any capital ship from ever being meaningfully bumped unless you cyno/jump something "inside" of it. This could generate some issue. Binary effect of modules are also rarely really liked like how stabs are just a pass/fail mechanic for being pointed.
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#163 - 2016-01-27 16:07:04 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Eli Apol wrote:

'It's not broken, it doesn't need fixing therefore all solutions are wrong'


Which is absolutely the truth. Not only that, even if it were broken, CCP can't do anything about it anyway.

You're sitting here expecting us to entertain your dishonest premise as though it were true. I will not. Ganking and bumping are not broken, period. There is no "discussion" to be had based on a lie.

We know CCP can't do anythign about it...because they investigated changing it.
And why would they have investigated changing it? because it's working perfectly?

Riiiiight.

Keep on telling everyone that I'm the dishonest one, that I'm the carebear, that I'm the shill and keep ignoring the obvious logical step that they investigated changing it because they themselves perceived it to be broken.

I mean that's all your rhetoric consists of: "He's a liar, he's a carebear, he's no true eve player, he's a shill, I don't believe him, he's saying the whole physics system is broken"

It's like being in playschool.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#164 - 2016-01-27 16:16:58 UTC
Like wise if my bowhead lands in a bubble camp with 30 hostiles im also ****** and I can also be held there indefinitely or until I self destruct. The fact that there was plenty I could have done before I landed in the bubble camp is the issue here.

You say people are bitter about discussing it, but its been discussed for years and no viable alternative has been put forward. In fact, considering how easy the mechanic is to avoid, the need for an alternative is highly questionable. The motives of everyone who proposes a change is also highly questionable. They make up facts. They misrepresent. And the best reason they give for wanting a change is: I dont like it. Its obvious to everyone that they are asking CCP to let them be greedier and dumber.

Plenty of argument has been put forward in this thread, and every other, that freighters really do NOT need the help. The vast VAST majority of hauling is wholly uneventful. Even afk freighters make it through the most dangerous systems more often than not. The smart thing to do is make hauling more dangerous before, or at least at the same time as, any 'fixes' for tackling with bumping is done.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Lyma Sarum
Doomheim
#165 - 2016-01-27 16:18:07 UTC
Interesting post, but it seems that instead of offering some positive criticism, there are people that prefer to yell "please don't touch my cookie". I get it. If I was making a profit out of ganking I guess I would say the same.

So my main concern is this: I started EVE very recently (about 1month) and I was interested in going the haulers way until I got enough ISK to start an industry/research/hauling corp. I quickly found out that in order to haul effectively I need 1 or 2 extra accounts (scouts,webbers) or some people I will always drag around depriving them off their fun and all of this just to have a slim chance of avoiding a group of multi accounts that are having their fun. Yes it really seems they take advantage of game mechanics because they are kind of broken/obsolete (?) but still the fact remains.

I for no reason can or will blame the annoying bullying attitude any player chooses. It may be boring from my perspective but it is a matter of choice. They need to have their fun and I need to have mine. I will however ask this and I am guessing only CCP can answer. Can I play this game with one account without paying for other people to play? Because from where I am looking at it, it seems I cannot. There is 0 (zero) balance when it comes to a new player coming in and like me wants to haul. Even if I am not afk what stops a multigank and bumper from getting me? And I am not asking for blah blah if this and that info. I am asking about MY options as a solo new hauler when while traveling I start getting bumped and a gank is soon incoming.

And another matter I spotted on the killboards. Many ganks seem to be executed by one guy having multiple accounts (yes they are easy to spot). I know that EVE allows multiple accounts running, but solo coordinating 10+ accounts(yes that is how many I last saw) requires some software that executes input automation or some macro scripting. Is this even allowed? And don't point me in the CCP thread about multiboxing because it specifies it is not. Unless someone is an alien or an octopus they is no way you can run 10 accounts that execute the same command at the exact same time.

Sorry for the long text but I recently joined EVE because I love the setting and wanted to join a friend already playing it. However I am very concerned. The game is challenging and beautiful but it seems so uninviting for someone who just started. What am I to do versus a guy who can pay or someway afford 10 accounts and multiboxes them? There is no way I will be dragged into paying for more accounts just to play an mmo. Also yes this is an alt. I was told that griefers will target me if I post with my main.
Lyma Sarum
Doomheim
#166 - 2016-01-27 16:24:08 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Takari wrote:


Possible bad idea incoming:

Stabilizing Jets. Your ship cannot be moved unless bumped by a combined mass greater than a percentage of your ships mass (increasing percentage for meta or tech II variants?), but in exchange it increases your align time by 20% (Or Decreases cargo capacity by 10% two possible modules? )

This way if you're caught by the entire gank fleet, you're still not going anywhere but if one guy catches you, he's about to be brick walled?



If they are good enough to prevent a MWD mach from bumping a freighter (battleship mass * MWD mass bonus) then they will prevent any capital ship from ever being meaningfully bumped unless you cyno/jump something "inside" of it. This could generate some issue. Binary effect of modules are also rarely really liked like how stabs are just a pass/fail mechanic for being pointed.

I guess the easy solution, if ever applied this way, is : "Stabilizing Jets - Can only be fitted in Freighters and Industrials."
Eli Apol
Definitely a nullsec alt
#167 - 2016-01-27 16:31:06 UTC
Daichi Yamato wrote:
Like wise if my bowhead lands in a bubble camp with 30 hostiles im also ****** and I can also be held there indefinitely or until I self destruct. The fact that there was plenty I could have done before I landed in the bubble camp is the issue here.

You say people are bitter about discussing it, but its been discussed for years and no viable alternative has been put forward. In fact, considering how easy the mechanic is to avoid, the need for an alternative is highly questionable. The motives of everyone who proposes a change is also highly questionable. They make up facts. They misrepresent. And the best reason they give for wanting a change is: I dont like it. Its obvious to everyone that they are asking CCP to let them be greedier and dumber.

Plenty of argument has been put forward in this thread, and every other, that freighters really do NOT need the help. The vast VAST majority of hauling is wholly uneventful. Even afk freighters make it through the most dangerous systems more often than not. The smart thing to do is make hauling more dangerous before, or at least at the same time as, any 'fixes' for tackling with bumping is done.


The difference between a nullsec bubble camp and aggression free tackling in highsec is that one's a nullsec bubble camp and the other is aggression free tackling in highsec .oO

As for questioning motives to undermine an argument, it doesn't do anything to the argument but I'll nibble anyways: I'm *still* pro ganking in spite of others stating the opposite. I *still* believe that the safety of freighter hauling with a web alt is too much and there should still be more risk for freighters even when using this technique (or the technique should be abolished entirely with alternative, more interesting, defensive options in it's place). I *still* think that aggression free tackling in highsec is a faulty mechanic.

but what would I know, I'm just a salvager

Black Pedro
Mine.
#168 - 2016-01-27 16:38:16 UTC
Lyma Sarum wrote:

So my main concern is this: I started EVE very recently (about 1month) and I was interested in going the haulers way until I got enough ISK to start an industry/research/hauling corp. I quickly found out that in order to haul effectively I need 1 or 2 extra accounts (scouts,webbers) or some people I will always drag around depriving them off their fun and all of this just to have a slim chance of avoiding a group of multi accounts that are having their fun. Yes it really seems they take advantage of game mechanics because they are kind of broken/obsolete (?) but still the fact remains.
Who told you that? The Deep Space Transport is incredibly tanky and easily piloted by one person. A freighter is a capital ship that intentionally requires multiple people or characters to support it properly to offset its significant strength (cargo hold size). It is not intended to be used solo so no, it is not "broken".

Lyma Sarum wrote:
And another matter I spotted on the killboards. Many ganks seem to be executed by one guy having multiple accounts (yes they are easy to spot). I know that EVE allows multiple accounts running, but solo coordinating 10+ accounts(yes that is how many I last saw) requires some software that executes input automation or some macro scripting. Is this even allowed? And don't point me in the CCP thread about multiboxing because it specifies it is not. Unless someone is an alien or an octopus they is no way you can run 10 accounts that execute the same command at the exact same time.
It is possible and legal. You can check out his twitch channel to watch him do it.

Lyma Sarum wrote:
Sorry for the long text but I recently joined EVE because I love the setting and wanted to join a friend already playing it. However I am very concerned. The game is challenging and beautiful but it seems so uninviting for someone who just started. What am I to do versus a guy who can pay or someway afford 10 accounts and multiboxes them? There is no way I will be dragged into paying for more accounts just to play an mmo. Also yes this is an alt. I was told that griefers will target me if I post with my main.
You don't need more accounts, just more friends. For better or worse, Eve is designed such that having more people almost always gives you an advantage. Multiboxers are not who you need to worry about as hyper-multiboxing gankers are an anomaly, but rather the usual crowd of freighter gankers who are a dozen or three real people working together for a common goal. You will have no chance against them by yourself and you should never expect to in this game (although to be fair a single webbing alt pretty much makes you immune to all 30+ of them even in a freighter as RFF proves every day).
baltec1
Bat Country
Pandemic Horde
#169 - 2016-01-27 16:48:55 UTC
Lyma Sarum wrote:
Interesting post, but it seems that instead of offering some positive criticism, there are people that prefer to yell "please don't touch my cookie". I get it. If I was making a profit out of ganking I guess I would say the same.

So my main concern is this: I started EVE very recently (about 1month) and I was interested in going the haulers way until I got enough ISK to start an industry/research/hauling corp. I quickly found out that in order to haul effectively I need 1 or 2 extra accounts (scouts,webbers) or some people I will always drag around depriving them off their fun and all of this just to have a slim chance of avoiding a group of multi accounts that are having their fun. Yes it really seems they take advantage of game mechanics because they are kind of broken/obsolete (?) but still the fact remains.

I for no reason can or will blame the annoying bullying attitude any player chooses. It may be boring from my perspective but it is a matter of choice. They need to have their fun and I need to have mine. I will however ask this and I am guessing only CCP can answer. Can I play this game with one account without paying for other people to play? Because from where I am looking at it, it seems I cannot. There is 0 (zero) balance when it comes to a new player coming in and like me wants to haul. Even if I am not afk what stops a multigank and bumper from getting me? And I am not asking for blah blah if this and that info. I am asking about MY options as a solo new hauler when while traveling I start getting bumped and a gank is soon incoming.

And another matter I spotted on the killboards. Many ganks seem to be executed by one guy having multiple accounts (yes they are easy to spot). I know that EVE allows multiple accounts running, but solo coordinating 10+ accounts(yes that is how many I last saw) requires some software that executes input automation or some macro scripting. Is this even allowed? And don't point me in the CCP thread about multiboxing because it specifies it is not. Unless someone is an alien or an octopus they is no way you can run 10 accounts that execute the same command at the exact same time.

Sorry for the long text but I recently joined EVE because I love the setting and wanted to join a friend already playing it. However I am very concerned. The game is challenging and beautiful but it seems so uninviting for someone who just started. What am I to do versus a guy who can pay or someway afford 10 accounts and multiboxes them? There is no way I will be dragged into paying for more accounts just to play an mmo. Also yes this is an alt. I was told that griefers will target me if I post with my main.


Several options. First is use one of the other cargo ships such as the DST and the neigh impossible to catch blockade runners. Another option is to join a player organisation/corp who can help you.
SurrenderMonkey
The Exchange Collective
Solyaris Chtonium
#170 - 2016-01-27 17:28:20 UTC  |  Edited by: SurrenderMonkey
Lyma Sarum wrote:
There is 0 (zero) balance when it comes to a new player coming in and like me wants to haul. Even if I am not afk what stops a multigank and bumper from getting me? And I am not asking for blah blah if this and that info. I am asking about MY options as a solo new hauler when while traveling I start getting bumped and a gank is soon incoming.


I like the arbitrary, "What can I possibly do AFTER I've already catastrophically ****** up??" constraints people put on these stupid gotcha questions.

The answer is, "You can probably do nothing and you're going to explode because you have catastrophically ****** up."

You should, instead, focus on not catastrophically ******* up in the first place. You should also view the occasional explosion as a business expense.

"Help, I'm bored with missions!"

http://swiftandbitter.com/eve/wtd/

Iain Cariaba
#171 - 2016-01-27 17:58:00 UTC
SurrenderMonkey wrote:
Lyma Sarum wrote:
There is 0 (zero) balance when it comes to a new player coming in and like me wants to haul. Even if I am not afk what stops a multigank and bumper from getting me? And I am not asking for blah blah if this and that info. I am asking about MY options as a solo new hauler when while traveling I start getting bumped and a gank is soon incoming.


I like the arbitrary, "What can I possibly do AFTER I've already catastrophically ****** up??" constraints people put on these stupid gotcha questions.

The answer is, "You can probably do nothing and you're going to explode because you have catastrophically ****** up."

You should, instead, focus on not catastrophically ******* up in the first place. You should also view the occasional explosion as a business expense.

Except that makes sense, therefore carebears are incapable of doing it.
Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#172 - 2016-01-27 18:25:47 UTC
Eli Apol wrote:

We know CCP can't do anythign about it...because they investigated changing it.


Actually, we know they can't do anything about it because they told us as much. This was in the same vein as the billboard story, I believe.

Turns out, they look into messing with all kinds of things more or less all the time, because that's part of game development. It wasn't bumping specifically(in fact if I recall they said on reddit that it was about bastion modules), it was "hey, turns out this thing is so deep in the base code that we can't change anything because it breaks the entire game", just like billboards.

Did you know about that one, by the way? If they remove billboards, then undocking doesn't work anymore. Legacy code, and all that.


Quote:

and keep ignoring the obvious logical step that they investigated changing it because they themselves perceived it to be broken.


And keep on making that illogical leap while ignoring pretty much everything ever written down about game development, just because you want it to be true.

And definitely keep on making arguments about game balance from a position of total ignorance.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#173 - 2016-01-27 18:27:26 UTC  |  Edited by: Kaarous Aldurald
Lyma Sarum wrote:
There is 0 (zero) balance when it comes to a new player coming in and like me wants to haul.


Yeah, and you can't fly a Titan in your first week either.

Some things just aren't for new players. Simple as that.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Daichi Yamato
Jabbersnarks and Wonderglass
#174 - 2016-01-27 18:53:34 UTC
@lyna
If you have no friends to help then manage your business accordingly. Capital ships are deliberately vulnerable such that they are best flown with escorts. Its the same everywhere. You can accept this risk when flying solo and factor it into your profits, or you can down size to a DST and use the mwd-cloak trick for near gank invulnerability.

@Eli
My post doesn't necessarily apply to you because you haven't posted any solutions to any mechanics you dont like. I will say that you are inconsistent with your arguments however. Where one mechanic is flawed because it was unintended but other emergent gameplay is just fine. And where you've called gankers lazy when the people they punish are literally AFK.

Hi-sec, null sec. What does it matter? You can be held against your will in this game. Learn to self destruct.

EVE FAQ "7.2 CAN I AVOID PVP COMPLETELY? No; there are no systems or locations in New Eden where PvP may be completely avoided"

Daichi Yamato's version of structure based decs

Frostys Virpio
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#175 - 2016-01-27 20:07:58 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lyma Sarum wrote:
There is 0 (zero) balance when it comes to a new player coming in and like me wants to haul.


Yeah, and you can't fly a Titan in your first week either.

Some things just aren't for new players. Simple as that.


Not an argument for or against but could a decent pilot perma bump something like a badger?
Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#176 - 2016-01-27 20:31:44 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
In the last thread on this (now locked, IIRC) I pointed out that bumping ships have minimal tank as they are typically fit for speed. And that there is nothing stopping people from ganking them. 2-3 talos or tornados would get the job done and the Mach is a pretty pricey hull not to mention the modules that have been fit.

Go impose a consequence on them for their actions. Yes, CONCORD will come along and blow up your ships too, but in terms of the "ISK war" you'll win. Spend some of your ISK and sec status to make bumping costly.

But noooo. Instead we get the same thing over and over and over and over and over and over: CCP please come stop the bad man from making it hard on me for being lazy and foolish.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#177 - 2016-01-27 20:36:55 UTC  |  Edited by: Teckos Pech
baltec1 wrote:


Several options. First is use one of the other cargo ships such as the DST and the neigh impossible to catch blockade runners. Another option is to join a player organisation/corp who can help you.


This, whenever possible use a blockade runner. I use one extensively and haul high value low volume cargo and laugh as I zip through Uedama and see some poor fool getting bumped.... a poor fool who probably overloaded freighter, didn't use a scout and maybe even committed the worst sin: went AFK after turning on autopilot. Maybe that fool didn't "ask for it" but he sure as Hell put a huge freaking target on his back...any shock somebody decides to shoot him? If you are shocked or upset, please consider shutting down the game and uninstalling the client.

Edit: Also a JF is a good work around as well. It has two advantages:

1. The jump drive will almost surely let you "jump over" the choke points.
2. Even if you get bumped in a 0.7 system or higher...if you have an emergency cyno ready to go, jump out and dock up.

Granted it is a much more expensive option, but if you need to move high value high volume cargo it is an option.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#178 - 2016-01-27 20:39:55 UTC
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lyma Sarum wrote:
There is 0 (zero) balance when it comes to a new player coming in and like me wants to haul.


Yeah, and you can't fly a Titan in your first week either.

Some things just aren't for new players. Simple as that.


Not an argument for or against but could a decent pilot perma bump something like a badger?


Never tried to bump a T1, to be honest. I doubt their align time is bad enough for that, however.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.

Teckos Pech
Hogyoku
Goonswarm Federation
#179 - 2016-01-27 20:42:51 UTC
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Frostys Virpio wrote:
Kaarous Aldurald wrote:
Lyma Sarum wrote:
There is 0 (zero) balance when it comes to a new player coming in and like me wants to haul.


Yeah, and you can't fly a Titan in your first week either.

Some things just aren't for new players. Simple as that.


Not an argument for or against but could a decent pilot perma bump something like a badger?


Never tried to bump a T1, to be honest. I doubt their align time is bad enough for that, however.


You could use the MWD/Cloak trick on any industrial to get off the field much faster.

Hell, using a MWD just while aligning will likely make bumping that much more difficult even if it extends your align time...hitting a fast moving target is harder than a slow lumbering target.

Seriously, time to lock this redundant thread as the anti-bumping side has once again started grasping for any all straws to try and save their benighted view point that: I should be allowed to be foolish and reckless and have CCP protect me from any bad consequences...but I get to keep all the potential benefits.

"The curious task of economics is to demonstrate to men how little they really know about what they imagine they can design."--Friedrich August von Hayek

8 Golden Rules for EVE Online

Kaarous Aldurald
Black Hydra Consortium.
#180 - 2016-01-27 20:44:40 UTC
Teckos Pech wrote:

Hell, using a MWD just while aligning will likely make bumping that much more difficult even if it extends your align time...hitting a fast moving target is harder than a slow lumbering target.


While I absolutely agree with the rest, I'll point out that a good enough bumper makes this untrue. I've seen people knock MWD'ing Skiffs halfway across a grid pretty consistently.

"Verily, I have often laughed at the weaklings who thought themselves good because they had no claws."

One of ours, ten of theirs.

Best Meltdown Ever.