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Balancing Feedback: Hybrid Turrets

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Author
Monica Sharezan
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#1601 - 2012-01-07 05:06:46 UTC
i can confirm that fade knows more about railguns than 90% of eve. no point in even arguing with him about it

also .. wheres all the usual "lol you trained rails to max? why didnt you train arties or lasers?" as thats what he gets 90% of the time when he tries to use them in pvp in game. but he tends to shut people up as he will be top dmg at the pos bash everytime using railguns provided he isnt late =)

still doesnt mean they are good in fleet vs fleet warfare. because they are the worst ... besides maybe cruise missles lol
Zarak1 Kenpach1
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#1602 - 2012-01-07 05:42:26 UTC
I think a subtle solution to gal survivability would be to drastically reduce signature sizes of gallente cruiser/BS hulls. this keeps them from becoming better tankers raw HP wise than amarr while still making the reduction of speed a web brings against blaster boats less effective.
Tanya Powers
Doomheim
#1603 - 2012-01-07 07:41:30 UTC
Player driven content. CQFD
Fade Azura
Weaponized Autists Cartel
#1604 - 2012-01-07 10:13:39 UTC
Magosian wrote:

Despite our different levels of passion on the matter, you thoughts are sound. I do hope they get this right, not to SHIFT the balance of power, but to:

-give veteran players more options to exercise ALL of their skills, in a more diverse manner
-give newer players the true avenue to evolve themselves by not allowing them to regret their skill and race choices
-bring balance to the economy, which currently [and naturally] favors effective ship and weapon systems over the crap ones

It is inexcusable for EVE, a game fundamentally-based on player versus player, to allow a race's line of ships and weapons to be immeasurably inferior when compared to the others.

My only disagreement would be to nerf projectiles. I think it would be better to get everything up to their effectiveness rather than to take a step backwards. There was a time when projectiles weren't so hot, and for [mostly] the same reasons hybrids are not so hot today.

I'll do my best to be hopeful now that i see Null is getting reworked, but again, more is needed!


i do applaud your calm and hopeful approach towards this hybrid rebalance good sir despite all the obvious trolls and minmatar fanboys that are trying their hardest to say otherwise with basically bold faced lies,propaganda, skewed stats, and other terrible examples and reasons why gallente is *fine*

Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1605 - 2012-01-07 13:04:18 UTC
Hopefully Tallest will be able to come out a good idea for rails, I cant see how current rail mechanism could be balanced at all.
There is no advantage for rails ,especially as beams are way better and has the same mechanism , but no ammo need and insta reload.

Imho rails should be able to track much better at closer ranges than beams , so you can use med ones at 15-30km.
And at longer ranges they shouldnt loose that huge dps ,so the dps curve should be much flatter and ammo basically defines mostly tracking vs range and maybe alpha less dmg vs range. Also maybe they could add differend dmg types or remove emp from projectiles.

Oh and fix the tier scaling for rails ,the difference between 250mm 200mm and dual 150mm is just way too much , you loose too much optimal by choosing smaller caliber , for arties they loose much less in % vise
t2 250mm 28,8km+12km opt+falloff 40,8
200mm 21,6+10km 31,6 loss 23%range
dual 150mm 14,4+6km 20,4 loss 45% range

arties:
720mm 24+17,5km 41,5
650mm 19,3+17,5km 36,5 loss 13%

Maybe lower falloff for arties as it makes large arties closest range ammo outdmg medium range ammo up to 90-100km that is insanse.
Morgan North
Dark-Rising
Wrecking Machine.
#1606 - 2012-01-07 13:11:45 UTC
Rails should deal Alpha. Thats what they are there for. DPS should be Artilery/Autocannons/Blasters. Thats pretty much how you balance the things and make them viable.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1607 - 2012-01-07 13:15:55 UTC
Morgan North wrote:
Rails should deal Alpha. Thats what they are there for. DPS should be Artilery/Autocannons/Blasters. Thats pretty much how you balance the things and make them viable.


thumbs up
reduce the artilary alpha and give it to railguns
Naomi Knight
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#1608 - 2012-01-07 13:39:41 UTC
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
Morgan North wrote:
Rails should deal Alpha. Thats what they are there for. DPS should be Artilery/Autocannons/Blasters. Thats pretty much how you balance the things and make them viable.


thumbs up
reduce the artilary alpha and give it to railguns

yeah if game was new ill say the same but imho too late for that change
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#1609 - 2012-01-07 16:45:39 UTC
Well with the null change I make the ranges for the medium and large blasters to be as follows (appropriate skills at lv5 for range modifiers) without and with a single TE (to the nearest whole km);

Heavy electron 9 12
Heavy ion 12 15
Heavy neutron 15 19

Electron cannon 19 23
Ion cannon 25 30
Neutron cannon 30 37

So close to removing the biggest bug bear - namely being kited at scram range without any reasonable chance to do much to escape. It'd be a shame if TE's became the new mwd and were a compulsory fit for every ship - pretty soon we might as well have it all hardwired into the ship if that becomes a trend :) .I have no issues at all with large blasters set at this level personally, but think the mediums could do with an extra 1.5km as their base, just to get everything into the scram range limit for being able to respond in some way. I guess the guns themselves would require that tweak, rather than the ammo. Alternatively the 50% boost would work, but then that might be too much for the large guns.

Of course, this only applies to t2 guns if it's adjustment by ammo, so every T1 and faction blaster will still be the current flavour of crap.
Jaigar
Native Freshfood
Minmatar Republic
#1610 - 2012-01-07 17:33:01 UTC  |  Edited by: Jaigar
Zarak1 Kenpach1 wrote:
I think a subtle solution to gal survivability would be to drastically reduce signature sizes of gallente cruiser/BS hulls. this keeps them from becoming better tankers raw HP wise than amarr while still making the reduction of speed a web brings against blaster boats less effective.


This is an issue. Say, Armor Cane vs. Shield Cane. Now, the armor cane has a speed penalty for his tank, and the shield cane has a sig radius penalty for his. But really, does this sig radius increase actually make a difference at all if these 2 are brawling (and yes, I know the armor cane does benefit from higher eHP and more utility for webs and whatnot, but if the shield cane wants to kite around 20km and has those extra lows for TEs he will lay out alot more damage.)

I think the heart of the Gallente problem comes down to the disadvantages of armor tanking being significantly worse than shield when you need speed. Armor however, is better for logistics (when compared to a LSE fit bassy) simply because a 1600mm plate affects a guardian about the same amount as it would on a harbinger, but a LSE on a bassy has 2-3 times the signature radius effect as it would on a drake.

Gallente need an option to tank yet have some reasonable speed. Honestly I like your suggested change, but it would need to be pretty extreme to have any actual effect, and then more likely than not you will just see more shield tanking brutixs

Lets assume that Gallente speed is increased significantly (say 20-40 m/s per ship or something).

Outcome: More shield Gallente ships since they would be fast enough to catch those shield ships. However, you run into the problem of no one wanting to use armor on them because they'd still be too slow (14.3% speed reduction from 3 trimarks hurts too badly assuming max rigging skills). And you are back to square one.

Perhaps another angle to this could be a massive railgun buff, being able to effectively punish those who are kiting you. But Caldari Hybrid shields tend to have an optimal range bonus and are better suited for rails(and with the SiSi Null ammo buff are looking better for blasters), whereas the Gallente seem to have more tracking bonuses which are difficult to take advantage of with blasters. For example, the Vindicator. Why do you need a tracking bonus with 90% webs? The Talos is the exception to this because of the nature of its platform: its fast moving and using oversized guns, so that tracking bonus is a tremendous help.

Honestly I don't think there's an easy tweak for this, but my list would be:
1. Sig radius reduction on Gallente ships.
2. Increase medium sized weapons to sig radius/explosive radius of 140.
3. A way to use Mid slots for armor ships to sacrifice tackle/eWAR for speed yet make it undesirable for current nano-fleets (say a mod that reduces plate mass modifier)
4. Increase Warp-To Range to 200km to give railgun battleships a specialized range.
5. Give Hybrids a more unique ammo choice by not changing damage, but changing the Rate of Fire. So instead of +40% range ammo doing say 60% less damage, it would cycle whatever percentage slower to equal about the same DPS and still hit just as hard. Thus it gives railguns some alpha choices at longer range ( I REALLY LIKE THIS IDEA).

I had to bold number 5 because I really really like the sound of that.
thoth rothschild
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1611 - 2012-01-08 00:12:55 UTC
above numbers are still not correct!


recalculate plz.

optimal from 1.25 => 1.40
falloff from 1.25 => 1.40


For Example base of heavy neutron blaster with 0 % bonus ammo

9 km optimal
13 km falloff

with the NEW null ammo it gets to

12.6 km optimal
18.2 km falloff

with 1 TE
14 km optimal
22.4 km falloff
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#1612 - 2012-01-08 00:40:16 UTC
thoth rothschild wrote:
above numbers are still not correct!


recalculate plz.

optimal from 1.25 => 1.40
falloff from 1.25 => 1.40


For Example base of heavy neutron blaster with 0 % bonus ammo

9 km optimal
13 km falloff

with the NEW null ammo it gets to

12.6 km optimal
18.2 km falloff

with 1 TE
14 km optimal
22.4 km falloff


Not sure where your figures are coming from, but mine are from in game and correct as far as I can tell.
Archare
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#1613 - 2012-01-08 04:54:50 UTC
Nikuno wrote:
thoth rothschild wrote:
above numbers are still not correct!


recalculate plz.

optimal from 1.25 => 1.40
falloff from 1.25 => 1.40


For Example base of heavy neutron blaster with 0 % bonus ammo

9 km optimal
13 km falloff

with the NEW null ammo it gets to

12.6 km optimal
18.2 km falloff

with 1 TE
14 km optimal
22.4 km falloff


Not sure where your figures are coming from, but mine are from in game and correct as far as I can tell.


Numbers pulled directly from Sisi
Gallente cruiser V
Sharpshooter V
Trajectory V
HAC V
BC V
Heavy Neutron Blaster II Null ammo
On a Thorax
6.3 km optimal
8.75 km falloff
+1 TE
7.24 km optimal
11.38 km falloff
+2 TE
8.18 km optimal
14.34 km falloff
+3 TE
8.89 km optimal
16.8 km falloff

On a Deimos (Optimal is same as Thorax)
6.3 km optimal
13.12 km falloff
+1 TE
7.24 km optimal
17.06 km falloff
+2 TE
8.18 km optimal
21.51 km falloff
+3 TE
8.89 km optimal
25.19 km falloff

On a Talos
12.6 km optimal
17.5 km falloff
+1 TE
14.49 km optimal
22.75 km falloff
+2 TE
16.38 km optimal
28.68 km falloff
+3 TE
17.78 km optimal
33.59 km falloff

On a Naga
18.9 km optimal
17.5 km falloff
+1 TE
21.74 km optimal
22.75 km falloff
+2 TE
24.57 km optimal
28.68 km falloff
+3 TE
26.67 km optimal
33.59 km falloff
Laurence Pinkitin
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#1614 - 2012-01-08 07:42:59 UTC
Morgan North wrote:
Rails should deal Alpha. Thats what they are there for. DPS should be Artilery/Autocannons/Blasters. Thats pretty much how you balance the things and make them viable.



the thing is its up to CCP to decide whether high alpha is good for teh game or not. Once they decide that they can start balancing long range guns. If they want high alpha then they need to increase railguns and beams alpha(no idea how good beams alpha is admittedly). Artillery, Railguns and Beams should all have comparable dps and alpha imo. Obviously the one with the least range has the highest and vise versa. As it stands now the difference it too great.
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#1615 - 2012-01-08 10:51:06 UTC
Archare wrote:
Nikuno wrote:
thoth rothschild wrote:
above numbers are still not correct!


recalculate plz.

optimal from 1.25 => 1.40
falloff from 1.25 => 1.40


For Example base of heavy neutron blaster with 0 % bonus ammo

9 km optimal
13 km falloff

with the NEW null ammo it gets to

12.6 km optimal
18.2 km falloff

with 1 TE
14 km optimal
22.4 km falloff


Not sure where your figures are coming from, but mine are from in game and correct as far as I can tell.


Figures

Good, your figures and mine match. Not sure what figures Thoth was looking at. So the point remains, this makes large blasters workable, medium T2s almost there if there's a slight tweak, and every other blaster other than T2 (including faction) still pretty crappy. I suggest that T1 ammo also requires adjustment if this isn't what you're aiming to achieve. Perhaps alter T1 ammo bonuses to affect both optimal and falloff and alter the numbers to make it work. Null will still enjoy the advantage of damage superior to everything longer range than lead.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1616 - 2012-01-08 13:01:11 UTC
Naomi Knight wrote:
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
Morgan North wrote:
Rails should deal Alpha. Thats what they are there for. DPS should be Artilery/Autocannons/Blasters. Thats pretty much how you balance the things and make them viable.


thumbs up
reduce the artilary alpha and give it to railguns

yeah if game was new ill say the same but imho too late for that change



it is never too late

projektiles where crap before 2007 now they are overpowered
what does it tell u ??
Hamox
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#1617 - 2012-01-08 13:37:41 UTC
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:


projektiles where crap before 2007 now they are overpowered
what does it tell u ??


That Hybrids will be overpowered 2017?
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1618 - 2012-01-08 15:47:03 UTC
Hamox wrote:
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:


projektiles where crap before 2007 now they are overpowered
what does it tell u ??


That Hybrids will be overpowered 2017?


i was hoping to say that huge changes can be made any time in mmos.

and i dont wont hybrids to be overpowered just equal with less then 5% diference in performance compared to other guns.
thats balance

what we have now are huge jumps between them
Nikuno
Atomic Heroes
#1619 - 2012-01-08 17:29:53 UTC
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:
Hamox wrote:
tEcHnOkRaT wrote:


projektiles where crap before 2007 now they are overpowered
what does it tell u ??


That Hybrids will be overpowered 2017?


i was hoping to say that huge changes can be made any time in mmos.

and i dont wont hybrids to be overpowered just equal with less then 5% diference in performance compared to other guns.
thats balance

what we have now are huge jumps between them


I prefer balance to be that all weapon systems have something unique but equally desirable according to circumstances AND every ship in a given class should have an option to be able to defend itself. Being able to pin someone at a range (outside of specialist ships for the purpose) whilst able to shoot them and not be shot in return is the major imbalance for blasters. Rails have no unique desirable feature.
tEcHnOkRaT
WipeOut Inc.
Pandemic Horde
#1620 - 2012-01-08 17:48:48 UTC  |  Edited by: tEcHnOkRaT
at least, every race should have a ship that can be used for the same task equally good.

and now projektils/minmatar are not only the best in pvp but also in pve
for example the machariel fitted for high alpha onshots rat battleships in belts at a distance of 100km

is that balance ?
with railguns u are happy when u hit 25% shield at this distance

same with lazors or missiles and sentrys aint better either :(
damage drones nowdays are becoming even useles after so many turret bufs
so drone ships are also the worst choise for pve or pvp