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Dev Blog: Exploring The Character Bazaar & Skill Trading

First post First post First post
Author
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5661 - 2015-11-15 19:40:39 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:

A character 'REMAP SP' item from the store - in case you want to turn those mining SP into Combat SP


1 post earlier
Tau Phoenix wrote:

Well, if you made a decision to train a skill at some oint then you made that decision and it should not be able to be undone.
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5662 - 2015-11-15 21:52:09 UTC
General Lootit wrote:
Кто-то ведь должен показать, что победу нельзя купить. И пусть это будет EVE.

Translated

Somebody has to show that victory can not be bought, And let it be EVE.

Good man, couldn't of said it better myself !!!

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5663 - 2015-11-15 22:08:33 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
General Lootit wrote:
Кто-то ведь должен показать, что победу нельзя купить. И пусть это будет EVE.

Translated

Somebody has to show that victory can not be bought, And let it be EVE.

Good man, couldn't of said it better myself !!!

Follow me and I will reveal you the truth!
Avvy
Doomheim
#5664 - 2015-11-16 01:04:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Just read the blog



It's a very good idea, must admit never knew that many characters went through the bazaar each day.

Diminishing returns is also a very good idea, as it protects your older customers characters sp lead, which they deserve. It also allows others to get to a point where they can have more options with what they want to do in the game.

The only thing is to protect those older customers characters you will probably need a limit to which you can use them to boost a character. Off the top of my head, I'd say 150 million sp. But of course you would be in a better position to know what that cut of point should be.


Get rid of the character bazaar and replace with an in-game system like you are proposing in a very good idea.


Edit:

It also does away with the problem of someone buying a character where they don't like the name.
Avvy
Doomheim
#5665 - 2015-11-16 01:12:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Zakks wrote:
Iowa Banshee wrote:
Anyone seen a reply from a CCP Dev yet ?

I was wondering if they would consider NOT SELLING SKILL POINTS but maybe they could use some of the following ideas:

A character 'REMAP SP' item from the store - in case you want to turn those mining SP into Combat SP
The ability to package ''WHOLE CHARACTERS' to be sold on the market - get rid of the Bazaar bring it in-game
Boosters for SP gain that are balanced towards lower SP character - the Blood boosters were very popular






Remapping SP for AUR/PLEX is a much better idea than SP-harvesting.


They're proposing to replace the current bazaar. Some people create characters just for the bazaar so CCP is giving them something to do. As well as those that have redundant skills that they can now get rid of and replace with something they do want.


I actually think it's brilliant, because it solves a few problems all at once.

Edit:

I know some people will say, but what about choices and consequences, I don't think that really matters where skill points are concerned.

Currently it sounds like more than 25,000 characters a year pass through the bazaar so basically that choices and consequences on skill points left the stable a long time ago.

Of course that doesn't stop an individual from making their choices have consequences for them, if they wish to do so.
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#5666 - 2015-11-16 06:07:22 UTC

Tyberius Franklin wrote:
Well, actually, you demonstrated one way in which it did help new players. Recruitment benefits. Or more generally, the desire for older players to use their resources to help new players for mutual gain. Further, even that aside the proposed means puts gaining SP in a much more new player friendly package in terms of obtainability through cost (though I'd granulate further) and retaining of the players personally crafted identity.

You can't just take one small piece of the argument that benefits you and argue it.

It disproportionately benefits newbros in large alliances. Why do you think this is good for EVE from a 10,000 foot view standpoint?

Let's not forget that newbros don't need SP to have fun. You've yet to demonstrate that SPs for newbros specifically is a problem that needs to be solved.



Quote:
When the packets become individually obtainable at reasonable rates they a) reduce the desire for RL cash expenditure for end users by being more obtainable through in game earnings (for sellers it's no change since they pay character transfer fees in the bazaar via PLEX now) and b) disincentivize RMT related directly to them for the same reason (black markets thrive where legitimate supply is very limited and expensive or doesn't exist. This actually tries to address that specifically as high character prices could actually drive RMT for isk trying to get a better exchange rate on $:SP).

You completely lost me on your logic.

You can't trade SP today. What RMT pipe are you preventing by introducing SP Trading?



Quote:
Edit: With regard to tracking RMT for packets vs characters or isk I'm not seeing this as a new driver since isk alone is still effectively all of the above anyways so it may be moot, but if it's not how is it less traceable than isk?

Why introduce the mechanism at all? You've just admitted it's at least as RMT-able as ISK? Currently the mechanism doesn't exist, but you'd like to introduce it so it turns into an RMT pipe?


Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Laurew
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#5667 - 2015-11-16 08:13:14 UTC
This is the worst idea CCP has ever had. Get rid of Fatty Gay and maybe the game will thrive again
Avvy
Doomheim
#5668 - 2015-11-16 10:21:46 UTC
There is a potential problem with the system.

If demand out strips supply then you are likely to get some of the richer players in EvE stockpiling them, they may do this anyway and release them slowly so that the price is artificially high.

You could combat this although it could be potentially ineffective.

When you buy the packet off of the market, you don't get the packet you get the sp ready to use. The problem is that all they would have to do is repackage them.
Amanda Orion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5669 - 2015-11-16 10:49:28 UTC
Avvy wrote:

Diminishing returns is also a very good idea, as it protects your older customers characters sp lead, which they deserve. It also allows others to get to a point where they can have more options with what they want to do in the game.


Diminishing returns is a bad idea, because it says a big F you to your most loyal customers.
It only protects older character's SP investment from poor people - or at least "not rich" people.

Fixed that for you...

Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5670 - 2015-11-16 11:40:16 UTC  |  Edited by: Levi Belvar
CCP Rise wrote:
We hope that because this feature is modeled from the Character Bazaar, a long-standing and well-established feature, we are already pointed in a good direction.
In what way is this feature modeled off the character bazaar in any way except that it pertains to trading.
That's like saying there is no difference between an Austin A40 and an Aston Martin DB11 - they both have 4 wheels and drive along a road.

CCP Rise wrote:
We want to make sure training decisions are still very important and that rapid respeccing of skills is not an efficient choice at any point.
You have done away with any need to have training decisions at all, You've given anyone with a large enough wallet the ability to create the perfect character for anything in game. There is no need to re-spec an elite character.

CCP Rise wrote:
On top of all that, you have to accept that you don’t get any personalization of the character you’re buying. The name, exact skill distribution and reputation are all set before you buy.
They have always been the downside to having the bazaar, Personalization / customization comes from being given the opportunity to alter your own character (time investment ) not the ability to bin it and create a whole new one. A name change, A skill respeccing package that is personalization not grow you own character in a day.
CCP Rise wrote:
Note that respeccing below 5mil SP is not possible because characters that new are not allowed to create the SP items.
So the players who make most mistakes, the new guys still have to live with them until theyre old enough to start recycling, this helps them in what way then ???
CCP Rise wrote:
We would like feedback on everything from how the diminishing returns work to what ways you could see this feature being exploited to what ISK price to expect a Skill Packet to fetch so please let us know what you think.
Exploited .... How about introducing a new RMT mechanism into the game, Skill point Farms, With its base price always being fixed by the plex It will never be an independent commodity so always being able to be controlled by CCP. Nexx store was for vanity items only yet the Extractor is for aurum. Only people with optimum training can match a 4 packet / plex path - Only balance to that is to remove attribs so doesn't favour anyone in game, every player has the ability to train XXXX skillpoints per hour.

The PLeX has an intrinsic value that is tied to the core of the game - Time, but also an arbitrary value of money. The time value can never alter its set in stone, but the attributes of the players can all be removed so as not to hinder any player in gaining the exact same amount of skill point's in any given time period. With the introduction of the TSP its arbitrary value can alter its already inflated value and can also be manipulated directly by CCP by controlling the commodity in game. e.g.

Plex Market Price 300 million isk
( 30 days ) ÷4 = 7.5 days (500k @ optimum training ) + extractor cost ( ? ) + profit margin ( % )
1 TSP =75 million isk + extractor cost + profit margin.

Plex Market Price 1 Billion isk
( 30 days ) ÷4 = 7.5 days (500k @ optimum training ) + extractor cost ( ? ) + profit margin ( % )
1 TSP =250 million isk + extractor cost + profit margin.

Plex Market Price 2 Billion isk
( 30 days ) ÷4 = 7.5 days (500k @ optimum training ) + extractor cost ( ? ) + profit margin ( % )
1 TSP =500 million isk + extractor cost + profit margin.

The players will never control the price of the TSP only the PLeX will. All the above is based on optimum training attribs, they change dramatically when your getting lower sp values per month.

What your doing to this game you ought to change it from Team Size Matters to Team FA Matters.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

Avvy
Doomheim
#5671 - 2015-11-16 12:11:53 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Amanda Orion wrote:
Avvy wrote:

Diminishing returns is also a very good idea, as it protects your older customers characters sp lead, which they deserve. It also allows others to get to a point where they can have more options with what they want to do in the game.


Diminishing returns is a bad idea, because it says a big F you to your most loyal customers.
It only protects older character's SP investment from poor people - or at least "not rich" people.

Fixed that for you...




Diminishing returns are fine, the system really allows newer players (5 million +) to get to a stage where they can try something they actually want to do.

If you just want to fly frigates you only need a set amount of sp, sp after that is irrelevant.

If you want to fly cruisers you need a bit more, after that any extra sp is irrelevant.

Battleship you will need more, any sp after that will be irrelevant

...and so on.

Don't forget players that have been around a long time should have a lot of isk anyway. So are more likely to be able to afford them. Without having to spend any more RL currency.


Edit:

Plus some of those older characters players keep telling me sp isn't important.
Amanda Orion
Royal Amarr Institute
Amarr Empire
#5672 - 2015-11-16 12:44:26 UTC
Avvy wrote:

Plus some of those older characters players keep telling me sp isn't important.


And by your logic, some means all... ^^
Avvy
Doomheim
#5673 - 2015-11-16 12:51:31 UTC  |  Edited by: Avvy
Amanda Orion wrote:
Avvy wrote:

Plus some of those older characters players keep telling me sp isn't important.


And by your logic, some means all... ^^


Of course not, if it did , I'd have said so.

Edit:

Actually, it was a little dig at them really. As I was pointing out not all older players feel the same way they do.
General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5674 - 2015-11-16 15:44:49 UTC  |  Edited by: General Lootit
Sibyyl wrote:

You can't just take one small piece of the argument that benefits you and argue it.

You can't just invent many reasons with intention to prove that change is bad for entire GAME because it's not benefitial for you. Wait... You can.
Quote:
Why SP Trading is bad for EVE: Part 1 - Part 2
Doddy
Excidium.
#5675 - 2015-11-16 16:50:14 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

[quote=Tyberius Franklin]

You can't trade SP today. What RMT pipe are you preventing by introducing SP Trading?




Not sure you are entirely serious. The longest running and most pervasive form of RMT in Eve has always been the sale of characters (which are packets of SP) for rl cash. The character bazarr exists precisely to offer players a non RMT based exchange. This proposal is just taking the bazarr one step further.
Doddy
Excidium.
#5676 - 2015-11-16 17:08:21 UTC  |  Edited by: Doddy
Levi Belvar wrote:
slightly wild eyed gnashing of teeth.


You seem to live in this fantasy land where players are going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars respecing their characters to be "perfect" for what they fancy, when anyone with such spare cash to sink into the game can already do it through the bazarr for like 1% of the cost. If you truly have such a problem with people being able to retain their name on their RL funded chars that it is a good enough reason to rob everyone else of the utility this system offers you must have a personal agenda.

You are really being obtuse if you cant see how this system is modeled off the character bazaar, it is obvious to anyone with half a brain. The character bazaar facilitates the trade of sp for isk in character sized packets with ccp taking a transfer fee. The proposed system allows the trade of 500k packets of sp for isk with ccp taking a transfer fee. The only difference is the improved personalisation of the traded sp being retained on the players own character, along with the utility of the size of the packets. That and the diminishing returns, which the bazarr does not have at all.
Doddy
Excidium.
#5677 - 2015-11-16 17:09:27 UTC
Iowa Banshee wrote:
With 4 CSM's coming forward to say they don't like this
90% of posters saying its a flawed or bad idea

1st 20ish pages - I got bored checking

Quote:
Now we will see if CCP actually listens to the players


Thats funny, it is about 50-50 for the other 200 pages after people actually looked ta the proposal, i wonder why you stopped checking ...
Levi Belvar
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#5678 - 2015-11-16 17:29:07 UTC
Doddy wrote:
You seem to live in this fantasy land where players are going to spend hundreds of thousands of dollars respecing their characters to be "perfect" for what they fancy, when anyone with such spare cash to sink into the game can already do it through the bazarr for like 1% of the cost.

So the $60,000 dollars they make each month from transfers is fantasy too ???? Then the sale of the plexes to actually buy the toons, noticed they've not offered up that info either. If real money is involved it just devalues the whole game.

“Stupidity and wisdom meet in the same centre of sentiment and resolution, in the suffering of human accidents.”

General Lootit
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#5679 - 2015-11-16 17:37:25 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:
If real money is involved it just devalues the whole game.

Confirmed. Plexes devalues the whole game.
Doddy
Excidium.
#5680 - 2015-11-16 17:43:38 UTC
Levi Belvar wrote:


Implants aren't going to bother the wealthy, this is going to be one of the biggest passive income generators ever. All the people see are instant skill points and there will be plenty of people providing the cows to be milked.


Where is the passive income going to come from? Each account creating the SP is a plex of cost, plus the cost of the extractors. If 1 plex per 4 Extractorss is correct then you need to make 2 plex per account to break even, assuming you don't need to boost your chars to 5 mil sp to begin with (3 plex per char starting cost). Given you could just sell the plex in the first place the gain per char per month is also going to have to be worth said farmers time, plus there are transaction costs (in game and often IRL) meaning you are looking at least 10 or 20% return on investment for anyone to bother doing it. So unless the market value of a TSP reaches 60% the value of a plex nobody is ever going to farm it.

Given that there will be a flooded market with people unloading unwanted SP, and others constantly trading back their SP for sub time or consolidating characters, the SP market cost is not going to be dictated by SP farmers for a long time, if ever. The source of isk rich individuals willing to drop a plex of isk on buying 1 days SP is going to run dry pretty fast.

If it ever was an issue CCP can just cap TSP use per month. If a char is limited to producing 2 TSP a month for example, the TSP cost would need to be twice as much (well over the cost of a plex) for it to be worth farming. Similarly if a char was limited to injecting even 10 TSP a month it would pretty much nullify the effect of these imagined super rich TSP junkies.

CCP only needs to exhibit a small amount of common sense for pretty much every valid concern over this proposal to be answered. Whether they will show that common sense or not is up to them,