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Dev Blog: Scanning and Probing Changes in Parallax

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Soltys
Brutor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#281 - 2015-11-09 18:08:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Soltys
CCP Goliath wrote:
Soltys wrote:
Ok, after playing a bit more over weekend with the new interface, revised list of mine - some stuff obviously overlapping with other people's remarks, and some sounding like a broken record =)

4 - Attentionbubble grabbing needs to be disableable: seriously, it gets in a way of any left-click action (rotating especially) so much; it felt excellent when it was disabled on the test server - now it's back again. So what was even the point of adding alt+cone method ? Please add a checkbox to disable it and another one to disable alt+cone dragging. This way everyone will be happy. Just a matter of 2 checkboxes after all. TBH, after I got used to alt/ctrl+mousewheel - both alternatives are just in the way =)

5 - Attentionalt/ctrl/shift are system-wide: EvE whether in background or not, its new (old one doesn't) probe map will react dilligently to those keypresses flashing with cones, arrows and cubes (this is broken record part).

6 - Attentionalt/ctrl/shift are EvE-wide: whether the new (or old solar beta) map has focus or not, it will react dilligently to those keypresses flashing with cones, arrows and cubes. It's hell distracting, as those modifiers are used a lot.

7 - Attentionallow docking/'always on top' of the probe scanner with reference to the floating probe map window': this is primarily to save a bit of screen space - when the probe map is in floating mode, there is currently no way to keep probe scanner on top of it

8 - Attentionall new maps when docked shift the ship/hud (implicitly ignoring Ship View Camera Settings); In single monitor setup it's perhaps desirable, but in dual (and higher) monitor setups it's terrible (read: unusable) - especially when the ship is set to be in the middle of left or right monitor. For example if I have the right monitor dedicated to lesser stuff (map, browser with tripwire, local, etc.) and the left to actual action - I do not want docked map to mess up where I put the ship/hud on the left monitor. The suggestion is to add checkbox in game settings under display such as "docked windows don't shrink in-space/hud area".

9 - Attentionperhaps consider swapping clrl and alt functions: this way ctrl takes new functionality and alt retains its current many months old one; personally idc (actually, I already got used to current setup) but some people will complain about changing defaults (old alt vs. new alt)


4. Too many people got mad when we took it out. Sorry, but we at least made it need to be more precise to happen.
5. Not sure if there's much we can do about that tbh, but I'll ask.
6. The old system does this too, so while it might get fixed it won't be a priority.
7. Like it used to be when we first pushed out the feature to Sisi? Again, too many people got mad when we did it so we had to revert.
8. That's just the way docking works for now unfortunately. It might get rewritten in future but that sounds like a fundamental change and those usually take time.
9. Probably too late in the day to make that change now, but we'll be keeping an open mind on it.


ad. 4

But that was the best quality of life change of the new interface. I'm not saying to permanently disable it - just please consider adding a checkbox such as "disable sphere dragging" ?

For example:

- rename "directional scan" menu to "misc options", then
- add "disable sphere border dragging" checkbox
- add "disable sphere cone dragging" checkbox (for alt+)

Everyone wins, no one loses. Keep the defaults matching current behaviour.

ad. 5 & 6

Yea, fair enough - no big deal here.

ad. 7

Like on this video. This was superb and screen space saving at the same time. The only way to emulate it now is to fullscreen/dock probe map, and that gets in the way of 2+ monitors really bad (as mentioned in point 8).

Another checkbox such as "dock probe scanner in solar map" ?

ad. 8

EDITED

The docking - from what I can see - works in very simple way - it shortens screen's width available for space/ship/hud.

And we have two issues here:

First is a plain simple bug - the moment something is docked, the settings are ignored. Completely. Whoever was coding this feature, simply forgot about camera settings. It works fine for everyone that doesn't use them (slider at 0). It works really bad for everyone else. Do a simple test: 2 monitors, shift at -50%, then dock a narrow map. Instead of ship/hud being gently shifted (as if slider was at 0), it will jump like mad - the reson being of course sudden jump from -50% to 0%.

The second issue is what I mentioned earlier - and there is no need to rewrite anything - the game already has fully working controls/mechanics for that ('Ship View Camera Settings').

Instead of flat out ignoring those settings - it should firstly not ignore those settings as explained above and secondly - add a checkbox to compensate for those settings dynamically, under 'Ship View Camera Settings'. The math is as follows:

L - total width of leftside docks
R - total width of rightside docks
X - original center shift (from -100% to +100%)
W - available screen width before docks

compensated shift = (WX-(L-R))/(W-(L+R))

Example:

2 monitors with 2x1920 (W = 3840)
probe docked to the right takes 960 pixels
pre-dock camera shift: -60%

compensated shift: -46.67%

ad. 9

No big deal here either, I already got used to current functionality.

Jita Flipping Inc.: Kovl & Kuvl
Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#282 - 2015-11-09 18:10:04 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:


I´ve been trying to find an answer for this for 4 days. The best I have is "if my cargo is totally full and I need to get probes off scan", which is the edgiest of the edge cases.


I have a better answer, warp disrupt probes need to be destroyed sometimes so new ones can be launched. Not all probes are scanning ones.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#283 - 2015-11-09 19:17:41 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Tipa Riot wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:


2. That's true, and by design. We made it like this to try and satisfy the people who kept resizing by mistake, while not removing the ability to resize that way entirely. We also introduced Alt-Mousewheel and mappable hotkeys (Shortcuts > Combat) as shortcuts to resize probes.

May you consider doing a survey about that point to get a valid base for a decision? As said before it's very frustrating to see something taking a lot more effort or using modifier keys which was working flawlessly before...


The initial decision was metrics based - why would we re-reun something we already have results for?

Curious about what this metric is? That you reverted your initial decision based on player feedback does not speak for this metric. Roll

Apparently we have people using keys/modifiers and people using the mouse only ... so my suggestion would be a sensitivity slider in the settings: max value ... off. In the off position you can change the probe cube with keys only.

Actually my problem with the old probing interface is not accidental resize, but accidental far away movement of the formation when in fact I wanted it to resize ...

I'm my own NPC alt.
FearlessLittleToaster
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#284 - 2015-11-10 00:04:55 UTC
Goliath,

Haven't had time to log in and play with the scanner much since the changes, real life being kind of a bear at the moment. That being said, as an explorer by trade I have been following this thread when I got a minute. I want to commend you for your attention, your reasoned responses and willingness to listen, and your patience with some of the... less diplomatic members of the community. You do seem to be pulling useful information out of the comments, and that can only lead to a better product. When you can't change something (or won't) you communicate why clearly and as often as it takes, and that is so much better than silence. So keep it up, this is re-defining the gold standard for CCP Dev communication about a feature as far as I am concerned.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#285 - 2015-11-10 00:40:36 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
CCP Goliath wrote:
helana Tsero wrote:

To be honest if this was a legacy issue their is no way it was being triggered before the new changes.

I scan every day and never had the loss of the focused window issue before. Its very annoying. I usually have probe and dscan windows stacked and the Dscan as my selected(focused) window. Now each time I jump a wormhole the window focus switches to the probe scan window and I have to manually click back on the dscan window again.

Dscan is critical for wormholers, so please fix this asap.

Edit.

Another bug I just noticed.

The You are Here icon gets stuck and does not update with your current postion after jumping x number of wormholes.


You got a repro of an issue I have been trying to track down for some time. What's your X? I've done 20 jumps and can't repro.

The legacy issue I was equally surprised at as I had never experienced it myself either. I am aware of how critical D-scan is, as I too am a wormholer. I share your frustration, and have unstacked my D-scan and Probe windows until the issue is resolved. As an aside, now that I'm used to that, I actually don't think I'll go back, as I like having both intel sources immediately visible.


Regarding repro. I dont have an exact repro however I can tell you what my ui setup is like in case that is a factor in the ''You are Here'' icon becoming stuck.

X jumps - is usually under 5-8 wormhole jumps. I haven't visited k space since parallax was deployed.
my Probe and Dscan windows are stacked.
I have the solar system map perma displayed in floating view and the map is reduced in size so it fits in the left hand corner of my screen.

On another topic. The way sigs/anoms and planets are now nested in one icon.. (when they are close to each other). This can get annoying when it hides a planet from view. When hunting in w space I will warp to various planets (dscaning as I go) Because the planets are sometimes hidden in the nested group its easy to miss a outer planet. Im finding this noticeable because Im using a reduced size (floating) solar system map. So alot of things are being put into nested view.. even when they are several au apart. TLDR - would like planets to always display and not get nested.

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Tatsuj Khan
Republic University
Minmatar Republic
#286 - 2015-11-10 01:56:56 UTC
I just spent a several minutes with the new scanning window and probe/sig panel.

Right away I was dismayed:

1. I couldn't see my blue probe bubbles in the classic solar system window. Where are they?!

2. The highly useful and convenient 'see anomalies' check box on the classic probe/sig panel was missing in the new panel. It can now be accessed by clicking on a pull-down list and selecting it. The Extra steps is NOT good.

Please bring it to the front for one click convenience and ease of use. Other than the main probe buttons, the anomaly check-box is most used for quick intel on a system.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#287 - 2015-11-10 05:47:43 UTC  |  Edited by: Masao Kurata
CCP Goliath wrote:
Rob Kashuken wrote:
Whilst most of my concerns appear from the dev posts are being looked at, I do have one question that I may have missed: In the scanning probe area, there's an icon to destroy probes immediately under the icon for the system map.

Why on earth does this exist? Surely the default would be to recover probes... does anyone ever routinely need to destroy their probes out in space?


I´ve been trying to find an answer for this for 4 days. The best I have is "if my cargo is totally full and I need to get probes off scan", which is the edgiest of the edge cases.


If you cloak the unrecoverable probes when the owner's cargo is full that use case disappears... unless there's something screwy with switching probe types while you have disconnected probes in space that I'm not aware of.

Ah, on that note: could we please have a warning that not all probes were recovered when this happens on an automatic recall? That's how I lose most of my probes and I don't notice until I next use them normally.
Malice Redeemer
Kenshin.
Fraternity.
#288 - 2015-11-10 07:49:40 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:

1. Probably not possible due to them being special cases, but I'll ask.
2. No room in the UI for checkboxes for these filters, the hotkeys and dropdown will be the way forward here I believe.
3. Because they're specialcased, we needed to change some expected behaviour, mouseover is one of those changes.
3.2. Not really something we'd want to do in our team, that´s more a game design decision and we are a UI/UX team
4. Not off the table yet, but will probably only happen if the star background is found to be causing performance issues. Our of interest, where does the desire come from?


1) Special Case hotkeys? How is this a good idea or why is in necessary?

2) there is certainly room on the UI for them, how about on the foldable signature bar? One little check box with a little stylized A next to it. If you are deadset on making this a hidden drop down, the behavior of the drop down needs to be better, it should open when I click on it, not after a delay hovering over it. It seem clicking it even lengthens the delay before it opens.

3) See point one, they need to be unspecialcased.

3.2) I don't care if they are called that elsewhere, w/e. But this is a UI issue, the Name Column needs to be one "cosmic" bigger then it should have to because it's 7 characters in till the useable info begins.

4) They distract the eye and are of no use. It's an already a busy UI with all the stuff that can be on it, why would we want it to be more so? If you think some people will like the look, fine, but why not offer an option for the black background we have in the current system map? Personally it also breaks my immersion. Why on earth would a tool have random stars in the background?
MechaJeb Kerman
MechaJeb Kerman's Thrasher Fund
Novus Ordo.
#289 - 2015-11-10 09:23:24 UTC
Quoting from another thread:

Tex Raynor wrote:
I miss the checkbox "use overview settings" on directional scanner. I must now scroll up/down the list to chose "all" if I want to stop using a filter. It is quite useful once your start reducing the angle on the directional scanner as i keep my 360 "clean" and my 5 degrees typically unfiltered for max intel.

Can we get it back please?



Please? <3

I'll crudely Photoshop an image of Helen Thomas onto a picture of your choosing for 30m. PM me.
Casey Ambraelle
VoidRunner's Inc.
#290 - 2015-11-10 12:06:03 UTC  |  Edited by: Casey Ambraelle
CCP Goliath wrote:


--snip--

1. It scales with window size instead, but we are actually going to make some changes to it, not sure what yet.
2. Yeah this has also happened to me once, with no repro. If we pin it down we'll fix it.
3. By Design. It's to do with a camera paradigm that we cannot rewrite at this time.
4. This is a good point. Will raise it with the team.



1) If you're thinking of making changes to it please make it scale with zooming in/out as it does on the old map and not with window size.

2) Awesome its on the radar as an issue. I'll watch to see if I can't narrow down when it happens

3) Fair enough

4) Awesome I'd hate to lose functionality in the switch over from the old map to the new one and it may help with all the complaints about the tool tips getting in the way.


Any thoughts on making the columns sortable again?

Add a +1 from me for blank black and transparent background options and making the window pinnable.
Karin Yang
Sebiestor Tribe
Minmatar Republic
#291 - 2015-11-10 14:01:19 UTC
When jumping into a new system through stargate, if Probe Scanning window is merged as a tab with some other windows like local channel and it is not on the top, the Probe Scanning window will pop up to the top, which is annoying.
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#292 - 2015-11-10 20:32:44 UTC
Are there really people who think this new display of scan results is better than this old display of scan results?

If you take away the scan group column from the old table, the old display was clearer, more precise an easier to read in terms of distinguishabilty between what a signature is and what an anomaly is. The placement of the buttons in the middle of the window is also more logical as they are closer to the actual area of interaction without having to traverse a swamp of drones before reaching the scan results section.

What's also missing is the Show Anomaly button. This is now hidden under the filters requiring more mouse movement and clicks in order to refresh the scan results as CCP has still not managed to auto-refresh the scan results upon collapse of the warp bubble.

A beta feature is all nice and dandy, but why is it that all beta features CCP introduces are a disimprovement of the established functionalities? Why can CCP not introduce a beta successor to an existing functionality that has actual improvements on top of the full functionality of the old feature as beta version in the game? Starting from below the current level of functionality plodding upwards to at least reach the same level of functionality can't be efficient.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
helana Tsero
Science and Trade Institute
Caldari State
#293 - 2015-11-10 21:43:49 UTC  |  Edited by: helana Tsero
Rivr Luzade wrote:
Are there really people who think this new display of scan results is better than this old display of scan results?

If you take away the scan group column from the old table, the old display was clearer, more precise an easier to read in terms of distinguishabilty between what a signature is and what an anomaly is. The placement of the buttons in the middle of the window is also more logical as they are closer to the actual area of interaction without having to traverse a swamp of drones before reaching the scan results section.

What's also missing is the Show Anomaly button. This is now hidden under the filters requiring more mouse movement and clicks in order to refresh the scan results as CCP has still not managed to auto-refresh the scan results upon collapse of the warp bubble...................

.


I like the new display better. Sorry Twisted

Looks cleaner and is less 'hey I am loud super bright UI, ignore the pretty spacescape and look at me!'

Also not even sure why you would need anoms and sigs displayed together apart from your intial eyeball of the system.

If your ratting bm the anoms your going to run. and then set ignore all. Any new anoms or sigs appear you can immediately see them. Also you have local so if I jump though a wormhole into your ratting system, you have plenty of time to run away unless your afk.

Im assuming that if sigs and anoms are not refreshing then that is probably a bug that will get fixed. (haven't noticed it myself)

"...ppl need to get out of caves and they will see something new.... thats where eve is placed... not in cave."  | zoonr-Korsairs |

Meanwhile Citadel release issues: "tried to bug report this and the bug report is bugged as well" | Rafeau |
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#294 - 2015-11-10 22:00:53 UTC
The filled out progress bar is cleaner than a thin line because it solidly fills the entire row and gives a clear and concise indication what is what in the scanner. The thin line, on the other hand, makes it harder to distinguish between which sig/anom is which in a busy scan result field. The solid bar does not yell flashy, the solid bar adequately uses the space available to convey clear information.

I am ratting by having everything but the anom type I fly ignored in the scanner. Bookmarks are in no way an efficient and convenient to use method to run specific anomalies. Sigs are obviously in the results in order to see when one comes up as soon as possible.

The missing refresh is not a bug, it's a feature since the old scanner window. But CCP missed to improve that, for instance, by making it possible to click the Scan button to refresh the scan results.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
Aivlis Eldelbar
State War Academy
Caldari State
#295 - 2015-11-10 23:40:15 UTC
While messing with different control schemes for the new probing system I ran across something that may or may not be relevant to this discussion:

EVE doesn't recognize lateral movements on the mouse wheel and/or secondary horizontal wheel. I tried mapping mine to the probe range, but found I can't without macroing, even though I'm not assigning any key combos or trying to toe around the EULA, ie: if I map ALT + [ horizontal move of the wheel ] to some unused keyboard key and use that to change probe range everything is fine, but I can't map the wheel itself in the menu.
I realize this is an edge case, but I'd love to hear CCP Goliath's take on it, seeing he's being so nice to us probers lately.
Lei Volund
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#296 - 2015-11-10 23:52:54 UTC
ok so ive gotten used to new scanner, and use it a lot, quite like it now the directional has a toggle, just a couple of niggles


1. The aim was to move the 'destroy probes' button away so it wont be pressed by accident, but you have moved it next to the most used buton, the system map. can this change?

2. On system map zooming out with the mouse wheel is up, yet zooming out with probes when alt is held down is mouse wheel down, feels disjointed.

3. if a new sig pops up while scanning all progress is lost and it goes back a step for some reason, hard to replicate, only happend once to me
Ragori Mitternacht
Republic Military School
Minmatar Republic
#297 - 2015-11-11 01:42:00 UTC
I love the directional scanner it makes things easier to spot. but I am having problems with the probe scanner. I can resize the bubbles but I can't move them to where I need them to be. I followed the directions others have given me in game and nothign changes. How do I move the probes in the new interface?
Rivr Luzade
Coreli Corporation
Pandemic Legion
#298 - 2015-11-11 12:08:13 UTC
Another thing that I find a disimprovement is the removal of the split kilometer/AU distance meter in the dscan window. With the old system, it was easy to see at a glance the km and AU to compare them or change km or AU manually immediately, now you need to press a button to have the same functionality or to switch between the measure units to manipulate them. That's unacceptable.

UI Improvement Collective

My ridicule, heavy criticism and general pale outlook about your or CCP's ideas is nothing but an encouragement to prove me wrong. Give it a try.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#299 - 2015-11-11 12:18:10 UTC
Lei Volund wrote:
ok so ive gotten used to new scanner, and use it a lot, quite like it now the directional has a toggle, just a couple of niggles


1. The aim was to move the 'destroy probes' button away so it wont be pressed by accident, but you have moved it next to the most used buton, the system map. can this change?

2. On system map zooming out with the mouse wheel is up, yet zooming out with probes when alt is held down is mouse wheel down, feels disjointed.

3. if a new sig pops up while scanning all progress is lost and it goes back a step for some reason, hard to replicate, only happend once to me


As far as #3 is concerned, this recently started happening. I cannot be certain, but I believe it started happening when the new map was introduced. It happens even if you are currently using the old system. You can get the same effect when an existing site disappears while you are scanning (e.g. If you are scanning sig X and someone finishes sig Y).

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Necharo Rackham
The Red Circle Inc.
Ministry of Inappropriate Footwork
#300 - 2015-11-12 15:57:30 UTC  |  Edited by: Necharo Rackham
A few points:

Grabbing the edges of the bubble to make the probe windows smaller ends up being fairly imprecise, unless you grab the right point you can rotate the view rather than make the probe distance smaller.

It should be possible to switch between filters with one action - currently you have to select the new filter as well as deselect the existing. Given that you are already allowing for people to create custom filters (which can aggregate as many or as few things as they like) it seems more sensible to simply leave it as it was - and allow switching between filters rather than selection of multiple filters.

The ring results still sometimes show even when the signature lies nowhere near the ring - visually this doesn't make much sense, as the natural inference drawn is that the result was spotted by fewer probes than would resolve it to a single point.

Please make the cross to close the map more visible.