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Dev Blog: Scanning and Probing Changes in Parallax

First post
Author
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#261 - 2015-11-09 14:50:28 UTC
helana Tsero wrote:

To be honest if this was a legacy issue their is no way it was being triggered before the new changes.

I scan every day and never had the loss of the focused window issue before. Its very annoying. I usually have probe and dscan windows stacked and the Dscan as my selected(focused) window. Now each time I jump a wormhole the window focus switches to the probe scan window and I have to manually click back on the dscan window again.

Dscan is critical for wormholers, so please fix this asap.

Edit.

Another bug I just noticed.

The You are Here icon gets stuck and does not update with your current postion after jumping x number of wormholes.


You got a repro of an issue I have been trying to track down for some time. What's your X? I've done 20 jumps and can't repro.

The legacy issue I was equally surprised at as I had never experienced it myself either. I am aware of how critical D-scan is, as I too am a wormholer. I share your frustration, and have unstacked my D-scan and Probe windows until the issue is resolved. As an aside, now that I'm used to that, I actually don't think I'll go back, as I like having both intel sources immediately visible.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#262 - 2015-11-09 15:07:28 UTC
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
Focus current location button gets stuck after the first time using it.
Can't switch it back, and each time I try to focus on some other thing or freemove the camera, it immediately snaps back to the current location.

Also dscan desperately needs the old "disable filters" checkbox for quick scans.


Just to double check - when you experience the issues in your first paragraph, do you also have "Align camera to Directional scanner" active? If so, uncheck the box and the issues should be sorted.

D-scan checkbox is something we're aware of.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#263 - 2015-11-09 15:13:55 UTC
Alice Ng wrote:
I found you could turn the old one back which is good as I find the new one incredibly slow and unusable. I've tried to give it a good go but in the end I've just switched back to the old system.

The issues I have are:

1/ Grabbing the box to move the probes. The probe itself seems to be in the center meaning you have to click the box slightly on the edge to get it. Very frustrating.
2/ Edge of the probes seem harder to grab to reduce the size.
3/ Make the bars back to solid please.
4/ Sigs no longer highlight when they are inside a probes area.
5/ Sigs seem hard to see.
6/ I spent at least 5mins trying to scan what turned out to be the DScan bubble. I suck. But very confusing.
7/ Not sure the cones are needed when moving.

It took me 15 mins to scan out 10 sigs in a worm hole I got so frustrated I was almost about to give up when a corp member told me I could switch back to the old system. Within 5 mins I'd done the other 15 sigs. Please don't take the old systme out just yet.



1. You can use the Markers menu to deselect Scanner Probes (and anything else you like) to reduce the clutter of stuff in the map that you might not care about.
2. That's true, and by design. We made it like this to try and satisfy the people who kept resizing by mistake, while not removing the ability to resize that way entirely. We also introduced Alt-Mousewheel and mappable hotkeys (Shortcuts > Combat) as shortcuts to resize probes
3. Colors and lines are getting a second pass, most likely in the next release
4. Known issue Will be fixed.
5. Known issue. Will be fixed.
6. This should get covered in the color/line pass
7. Some use them and they don't do any specific harm in being there so we will leave them.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#264 - 2015-11-09 15:28:41 UTC
Calavoow2 wrote:
Hi, I'm in love with the new hotkeys for scanning, saves me a lot of mousing!
I also agree with all of the improvements you have posted in the opening statements (especially highlighting of sigs when probes are over them).

I live in wormhole space, and have some comments on the probe scanning UI:

  1. When the probe scanning box is close to something that I have not hidden on the map such as planets (because I want to see them), then it often happens that I drag the label of the planet / the planet itself instead of the probes.
  2. I'm unsure when, if ever, you would want to drag a planet on the map.
  3. Is it possible to make the make the new map pinnable? So that I do not drag it accidentally, as that has happened to me a few times.
  4. Is there a shortcut for opening the new map? F10 still opens the old map.
  5. When alt-tabbing, the probe box (to drag probes with) sometimes disappears until I press Shift.
  6. Is it possible to toggle certain filters without clicking on the Filtered tab in the Probe Scanner?
  7. Sometimes I would like to enable/disable anoms by just pressing '1' and not using the mouse.
  8. (Minor) Why are the probes not sorted alphabetically? And why does the ID of the probes not always start at 1?


Furthermore, for the D-Scan UI:

  1. Why is it no longer possible to toggle your active overview on the d-scan?
  2. I used this often when I wanted to get an unfiltered overview, because unfortunately my d-scan overview is about 30 overviews settings down from the 'All' preset, since I use an overview pack.
  3. (minor) Add some better feedback when the d-scan is active, it currently has a very mild animation so I tend to spam the d-scan hotkey just to be sure.
  4. Something like a button-press would be great.
  5. I am able to type '999' AU in the distance and press enter to activate the scan, without getting an error. The error only happens after clicking.


1. Dragging in this context is a byproduct of being selectable at all. Layering is getting another pass though.
2. I do not believe so but at the same time do not know why. I will ask.
3. F9, same as opening the old solar system map
4. Known issue, will be fixed, you have established the correct workaround though :)
5. Yes, you can already do exactly what you described with anoms actually, and the other preset filters. Just use 1-5 while the Probe Scanner window is active.
6. I am not actually sure

Dscan

1. Known issue, will be fixed.
2. That animation is basically as good as it's going to get in this release.
3. Interesting. Will check this out.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#265 - 2015-11-09 15:29:27 UTC
Rob Kashuken wrote:
Whilst most of my concerns appear from the dev posts are being looked at, I do have one question that I may have missed: In the scanning probe area, there's an icon to destroy probes immediately under the icon for the system map.

Why on earth does this exist? Surely the default would be to recover probes... does anyone ever routinely need to destroy their probes out in space?


I´ve been trying to find an answer for this for 4 days. The best I have is "if my cargo is totally full and I need to get probes off scan", which is the edgiest of the edge cases.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#266 - 2015-11-09 15:30:22 UTC
Marris Rogers wrote:
I have noticed on the scan map, that when initially launching the probes you can not move them. If you hit your Ctrl Key once, it brings back the move functionally.


Yup this is a bug and we will be fixing it.

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#267 - 2015-11-09 15:30:31 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:


2. That's true, and by design. We made it like this to try and satisfy the people who kept resizing by mistake, while not removing the ability to resize that way entirely. We also introduced Alt-Mousewheel and mappable hotkeys (Shortcuts > Combat) as shortcuts to resize probes.

May you consider doing a survey about that point to get a valid base for a decision? As said before it's very frustrating to see something taking a lot more effort or using modifier keys which was working flawlessly before...

I'm my own NPC alt.

Vic Vorlon
Aideron Robotics
#268 - 2015-11-09 15:33:31 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
Focus current location button gets stuck after the first time using it.
Can't switch it back, and each time I try to focus on some other thing or freemove the camera, it immediately snaps back to the current location.

Also dscan desperately needs the old "disable filters" checkbox for quick scans.


Just to double check - when you experience the issues in your first paragraph, do you also have "Align camera to Directional scanner" active? If so, uncheck the box and the issues should be sorted.

D-scan checkbox is something we're aware of.


Hi Goliath,
I like the new probing system but I got confused by this too. Would it be possible to detect that the player is trying to change focus, or pan, when the "align camera" option is on, and show a brief error message? One of the timed messages like the "you cannot do that while in warp". It's not obvious that the "align camera" option would lock the focus to your ship, so a message letting you know that you can't change it would be helpful. Something like "You cannot change focus while the "Align Camera to Directional Scanner" option is selected."

One final question: when I learned probing a couple of years ago with the old system it tooks ages to notice that you could double-click a signature to center your "spin" around it. Without knowing that, checking that my probes were centered correctly was really difficult. Could you add a small button (optionally, perhaps) to each signature, or at least a right-click "Center rotation" menu command, so the player knows the option exists. Without an affordance like that, you're assuming the player will stumble on it themselves. Double-clicks should, where possible, not be the ONLY way to do something.

Thank you for your work on this feature, I really like it!

A general question: how do I launch probes in a way that the formation will center on my ship instead of on the star?
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#269 - 2015-11-09 15:34:12 UTC
Tinukeda'ya Naskingar wrote:
Ok... so after some more testing I have few things to say (some of which were said already, but I'll mention it anyway).

1) I do not like the SSM look for only one reason. The displaying of BMs and their stacking. Get rid of the "paddle" and do not let them stack (or drastically reduce the range at which they do so). If you are worried abut their visibility just darken the background. But I do not think that will be an issue. This is something that should be just transferred from the old map (basically I'd like to see the old map look with the proper sun in the middle)

2) "Align with Camera" and "Show Scan Cone" toggles need to be directly accessible not hidden under very lazily reacting menu.

3) I like the alt+mousewheel to change probe range, but can we have it without the alt? Zooming in map can already be done by pressing both left+right mouse buttons, so scratch the alt. (I can understand some people would be against that, so just make that an option)

4) Make the SSM window pinnable and to remember it's open/close state... I have enough real estate on my setup to have the map open all the time. I'd like to pin it (so it goes transparent when the window is not active) and not to open it every time I log in.

5) I also like the previously mentioned idea that will show the amount of launched probes and remaining time on the collapsed probe section title.

Overall I feel optimistic about the new map scanning interface which is for the first time since this whole new map introduction.


1. I understand that there will be people who just cannot get behind the new map aesthetically. I don't particularly understand your particular issue with the stacking though - what is it that you don't like?
2. Yeah I agree, we'll be discussing options in the team. The menu reaction is based on your tooltip sensitivity setting, FYI
3. No, sorry, too many special cases
4. I'll ask about pinnability, but I'm not sure if it's an option. Remembering state is something that should work though, and we'll fix issues with it.
5. Yeah I liked that one too :)

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#270 - 2015-11-09 15:34:59 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:


2. That's true, and by design. We made it like this to try and satisfy the people who kept resizing by mistake, while not removing the ability to resize that way entirely. We also introduced Alt-Mousewheel and mappable hotkeys (Shortcuts > Combat) as shortcuts to resize probes.

May you consider doing a survey about that point to get a valid base for a decision? As said before it's very frustrating to see something taking a lot more effort or using modifier keys which was working flawlessly before...


The initial decision was metrics based - why would we re-reun something we already have results for?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#271 - 2015-11-09 15:36:48 UTC
Vic Vorlon wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Torgeir Hekard wrote:
Focus current location button gets stuck after the first time using it.
Can't switch it back, and each time I try to focus on some other thing or freemove the camera, it immediately snaps back to the current location.

Also dscan desperately needs the old "disable filters" checkbox for quick scans.


Just to double check - when you experience the issues in your first paragraph, do you also have "Align camera to Directional scanner" active? If so, uncheck the box and the issues should be sorted.

D-scan checkbox is something we're aware of.


Hi Goliath,
I like the new probing system but I got confused by this too. Would it be possible to detect that the player is trying to change focus, or pan, when the "align camera" option is on, and show a brief error message? One of the timed messages like the "you cannot do that while in warp". It's not obvious that the "align camera" option would lock the focus to your ship, so a message letting you know that you can't change it would be helpful. Something like "You cannot change focus while the "Align Camera to Directional Scanner" option is selected."

One final question: when I learned probing a couple of years ago with the old system it tooks ages to notice that you could double-click a signature to center your "spin" around it. Without knowing that, checking that my probes were centered correctly was really difficult. Could you add a small button (optionally, perhaps) to each signature, or at least a right-click "Center rotation" menu command, so the player knows the option exists. Without an affordance like that, you're assuming the player will stumble on it themselves. Double-clicks should, where possible, not be the ONLY way to do something.

Thank you for your work on this feature, I really like it!

A general question: how do I launch probes in a way that the formation will center on my ship instead of on the star?


I think we could definitely afford to take a second pass at this. It's likely that moving the button out of its menu will help in this regard, but we'll see and then maybe do more. I like your solution though :)

Do you mean in the Probe Scanner menu, or in the map itself?

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath

Tinukeda'ya Naskingar
Minmatar Expeditions ltd.
#272 - 2015-11-09 15:57:06 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Tinukeda'ya Naskingar wrote:
Ok... so after some more testing I have few things to say (some of which were said already, but I'll mention it anyway).

1) I do not like the SSM look for only one reason. The displaying of BMs and their stacking. Get rid of the "paddle" and do not let them stack (or drastically reduce the range at which they do so). If you are worried abut their visibility just darken the background. But I do not think that will be an issue. This is something that should be just transferred from the old map (basically I'd like to see the old map look with the proper sun in the middle)

2) "Align with Camera" and "Show Scan Cone" toggles need to be directly accessible not hidden under very lazily reacting menu.

3) I like the alt+mousewheel to change probe range, but can we have it without the alt? Zooming in map can already be done by pressing both left+right mouse buttons, so scratch the alt. (I can understand some people would be against that, so just make that an option)

4) Make the SSM window pinnable and to remember it's open/close state... I have enough real estate on my setup to have the map open all the time. I'd like to pin it (so it goes transparent when the window is not active) and not to open it every time I log in.

5) I also like the previously mentioned idea that will show the amount of launched probes and remaining time on the collapsed probe section title.

Overall I feel optimistic about the new map scanning interface which is for the first time since this whole new map introduction.


1. I understand that there will be people who just cannot get behind the new map aesthetically. I don't particularly understand your particular issue with the stacking though - what is it that you don't like?
2. Yeah I agree, we'll be discussing options in the team. The menu reaction is based on your tooltip sensitivity setting, FYI
3. No, sorry, too many special cases
4. I'll ask about pinnability, but I'm not sure if it's an option. Remembering state is something that should work though, and we'll fix issues with it.
5. Yeah I liked that one too :)


1) The problem is when you have a lot of BMs (I have around 40 personal BM in our system + corp BMs) and you rotate the map they keep appearing and disappearing as they stack/unstack. And it's really bad visual... not to mention the if they stack from the distance they do now, it's actually quite off the real location and that is bad. All and all I have a feeling that the paddles show the real location with less precision than the BMs in the old map.

2) Not a good idea to tie menu reaction to tooltip reactions!!!

3) then go the other way around and make the probe range change by both button press... I mean you now have 2 ways to zoom in map with mouse only...

4) Oh well... would be nice tho'.. please try.

5) !!!

Oh and one more...

6) I'm on the same boat with others to revert back to show solid background on the signal hit instead the line.

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -  Arthur C. Clarke

E1ev1n
Big Sister Exploration
#273 - 2015-11-09 16:03:48 UTC
I am very impressed with the amount of user interaction you have been putting into making the new map better CCP Goliath, it has really shown up in how well it is currently functioning and has grown since deployment. Each time I log in I check to see which changes have been made to it.

I really like that you have put the HUD back into full screen mode for the map.

As someone else posted above yes the D-scan and Probe scanner focus should not be taking control of focus in a stack of windows. I believe that having a window assume focus is not optimal in any way, a person wanting to scan may need the probe scanner or they may need d-scan, but that chat window on top of them both could be key to them getting the intel that X, Y and Z pilots are camping a bubbled wormhole in the chain. Hope to see a fix on this particular issue soon.
E1ev1n
Big Sister Exploration
#274 - 2015-11-09 16:13:44 UTC
Marris Rogers wrote:
I have noticed on the scan map, that when initially launching the probes you can not move them. If you hit your Ctrl Key once, it brings back the move functionally.

The ALT key also does as well. The Probes need to be visible to be moved via center marker at all times.
Vic Vorlon
Aideron Robotics
#275 - 2015-11-09 16:31:48 UTC
Quote:

I think we could definitely afford to take a second pass at this. It's likely that moving the button out of its menu will help in this regard, but we'll see and then maybe do more. I like your solution though :)

Do you mean in the Probe Scanner menu, or in the map itself?



Moving the "align camera to direction of ship", button you mean? I don't think that will help much, because its still not clear exactly why the players attempt to change the rotation center (you call it "focus", right?) are failing. Put yourself in the noob probers shoes: she is trying to get the map to center on something other than the ship, because she's trying to make sure that her probes are centered over the target, and the focus just keeps snapping back to the ship. Why? She has no idea. She tries again a few more times and gives up. I think a message specifically explaining why the window is behaving that way will clear things up.

To your second question "Do you mean in the Probe Scanner menu, or in the map itself?", I presume you mean where would I like the command to "Center Rotation", I think it makes most sense in the list of signatures. There's already a right-click popup menu there (it contains Clear Results, Ignore Result, Ignore Other Results, IIRC). You could add (oh please oh please....) "Center Rotation" there. Even if the cosmic sig is not 100% probed yet, just center at the middle of the sphere or ring.

If you don't mind adding a new control to the screen, then a small button on the right side of each probe result, like the up/down red/green arrow on the right of the market buy/sell screen, with a "center" icon on it, which when clicked would do the same thing: center the map rotation on that item. If that's too visually cluttering, make it an option that is ON by default (helping the noobs) and let the player turn it off when they don't need those training wheels any more.

If you can get it in BOTH locations, even better. So in the map itself if you double-click (it's ok if it's a shortcut to a feature you can access another way!) it will center the rotation on the item you double-clicked on.

It's been a pet rant of mine that something so important, centering the map's rotation point, was not given a visual affordance - you had to guess, or be told, that a double-click on the probe result was the only way to do it. I'm glad it might get on onscreen control :)

I'm at work so I can't do a mockup graphic, sorry, but I can later if you want.
FT Diomedes
The Graduates
#276 - 2015-11-09 16:35:57 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
CCP Goliath,

While I intensely dislike the new scanning map (possibly largely because of some tooltips mumbo jumbo, or maybe just because I am an old dog who does not like learning new tricks), I have to say that I am intensely impressed with the amount of engagement with your userbase in this thread.

With that said, I'm currently attempting to play Eve on a 17-inch laptop screen. Screen real estate is at a premium. Adding a completely separate window for the scanning interface might be nice if I was playing on a 30-inch screen, but it adds no new functionality for me.

As an example of this, the new ability to better aim your d-scan tool seems great. But I literally have a 2x2 inch square of screen left available for me to move my ship to aim it. Between local, the d-scan screen, the overview, my HUD, my chat channel, etc. There just is not any space for me to use the new system effectively.

So, thank you for your efforts. I'll be that curmudgeon who will continue to use the old map and the old scanning system as long as I can.


Why don't you just fullscreen the Solar System map? That way it will pop behind the rest of your UI, much like the old solar system map, and not take up the screen real estate.


What does that gain me versus using the old map? Also, how do you do that? You changed the system, apparently adding new capabilities, but I have not seen any guide or documentation as to how to unlock and use all these new capabilities. All this stuff about hot keys and etc, but absolutely no guide as to how to use it. The old system was relatively intuitive. It came optimized. The new system seems like it could work better with a bunch of adjusting, but I just don't have a reason to go through that pain. Especially not on six different accounts.

CCP should add more NPC 0.0 space to open it up and liven things up: the Stepping Stones project.

Vic Vorlon
Aideron Robotics
#277 - 2015-11-09 16:39:58 UTC
Quote:

2) Not a good idea to tie menu reaction to tooltip reactions!!!


I agree! Tooltips are generally for information that's nice to have, a deeper look at something. You don't mind waiting a second for it because you generally won't want to see it every time you mouse-over that control.

But a menu need instant accessibility - it's me trying to control something. I have my tooltips set to quite a long delay; I had wondered why the menu's on this screen were taking so long to show up. It literally never occurred to me that a programmer would choose to have menus appear slowly :) That's a....shall we say "novel" approach to GUI design? None of the other menus in the game work this way; why start now and here?

I support the idea of adding buttons to the top of the solar system map - you have that approach on the probe control window and the d-scan window and this would be in keeping with that style.




Tinukeda'ya Naskingar
Minmatar Expeditions ltd.
#278 - 2015-11-09 16:56:43 UTC
FT Diomedes wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
FT Diomedes wrote:
CCP Goliath,

While I intensely dislike the new scanning map (possibly largely because of some tooltips mumbo jumbo, or maybe just because I am an old dog who does not like learning new tricks), I have to say that I am intensely impressed with the amount of engagement with your userbase in this thread.

With that said, I'm currently attempting to play Eve on a 17-inch laptop screen. Screen real estate is at a premium. Adding a completely separate window for the scanning interface might be nice if I was playing on a 30-inch screen, but it adds no new functionality for me.

As an example of this, the new ability to better aim your d-scan tool seems great. But I literally have a 2x2 inch square of screen left available for me to move my ship to aim it. Between local, the d-scan screen, the overview, my HUD, my chat channel, etc. There just is not any space for me to use the new system effectively.

So, thank you for your efforts. I'll be that curmudgeon who will continue to use the old map and the old scanning system as long as I can.


Why don't you just fullscreen the Solar System map? That way it will pop behind the rest of your UI, much like the old solar system map, and not take up the screen real estate.


What does that gain me versus using the old map? Also, how do you do that? You changed the system, apparently adding new capabilities, but I have not seen any guide or documentation as to how to unlock and use all these new capabilities. All this stuff about hot keys and etc, but absolutely no guide as to how to use it. The old system was relatively intuitive. It came optimized. The new system seems like it could work better with a bunch of adjusting, but I just don't have a reason to go through that pain. Especially not on six different accounts.



You know it's BETA right? You have a chance to try it out and tell them what you'd like to change... If you give them good reason they might actually implement your ideas like Goliath (my new favorite CCP developer) shown us already. Nobody is forcing you to use it now, but you should not come back here crying when it goes out of beta that you would like to change that and that.

You might not gain nothing using the fullscreen mode over the old one. But that would be the point... What we need before this goes out of beta is not to LOOSE any functionality. As long as it keeps the standard of the old map they can take it out of beta. And they will have open road to improvements..

That said it does not have the old map standards yet... But getting there... :D

"Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic." -  Arthur C. Clarke

Rain Kaessinde
Liminal Cloudwatch
#279 - 2015-11-09 17:25:53 UTC
Good to hear that the fullscreen toolbar and the two-probe circle problem are being looked at. ^^

On the topic of partial scan results, could split (two-dot/three-probe) signals maybe get some distinction in the map view? Currently, looking at a cloud of red dots, you can't visually tell which are singular and which go together. A unique marker style for split signals (perhaps open circles connected by dashed lines?) would convey this information at a glance.

The stars might lie, but the numbers never do.

Terranid Meester
Tactical Assault and Recon Unit
#280 - 2015-11-09 18:04:36 UTC  |  Edited by: Terranid Meester
Analyze button needs to be back on the right or at least an option to switch it to the right, because being right-handed it would be natural to me and I am used to it being on the right. Don't be a bunch of virtual hipsters CCP and do something contrary just because it seems different so that would automatically = cool!