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Dev Blog: Scanning and Probing Changes in Parallax

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Moloney
University of Caille
Gallente Federation
#141 - 2015-11-05 12:32:11 UTC
Please think of DOS for simple applications.

Scanning is a simple application, please leave it as such since all we want out of it is speed. The current version works very well for this.

About the only addition that you could make to improve the current scanning is adding the short cut for Scan.
Pandora Bokks
Pangalactic Frontline Supply Agency
#142 - 2015-11-05 12:50:18 UTC  |  Edited by: Pandora Bokks
Getting used to the new system will take a while but in general, I think it will be better over time.

I have a question though:

Have you touched scanning mechanics (the math behind it) somehow? I have the strong feeling that it is harder to get results after patch (max skills / full mid-grade virtue clone / rss probes). Funny thing is that it seems especially to be true for the easy sigs that I was able to get an instant hit with 4 AU diameter before.

To add - I would be extremely happy if you made/make probing harder, so this is by no way a complaint.
Vegare
Bitslix
Lolsec Fockel
#143 - 2015-11-05 12:54:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Vegare
Thanks for listening to all of our feedback! If not for a few remaining issues I'd say the new solar system map is now ahead of the old one regarding features and functionality. Merging probing and d-scanning in a far more obvious way was definitely the way to go.

However I’d like to put some emphasis on an issue that has been raised before. Namely the way that the new map handles the celestials that are selected by clicking on them outside of the map window (which puts them in the ‘selected item window’). That is: it does nothing. The old functionality strikes me as rather fundamental to orientation on the map. A simple click on an objects bracket showed you the location of the object you were looking for. Double clicking an entry, for example in the overview, would even center the map on it. One possible use case comes up while trying to identify a feasible celestial to ping to before warping to an out gate. Open map, double click gate on overview, map centers on gate, check for pings, d-scan, warp and jump and hope there’s no camp on the other side.

The other thing that seems to be critical is to be able to see your ships HUD when having the map on full screen. However, I take you’re already on that one. While on it just please remember that some people have the HUD at the top of the screen. It might interfere with the map controls.

Thanks again for your great work.
Moac Tor
Cyber Core
Immediate Destruction
#144 - 2015-11-05 13:00:39 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Moac Tor wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
....

I hope these changes show you effectively that we are committed to iteration and we still want your constructive, well explained feedback - so let's have it! Big smile

Hi Goliath. I think you have covered most of it there already. I would also suggest tidying up the icons in general on the solar system map, such as for asteroid belts, planets, etc.

Also please remove those huge red arrows when resizing probes as they look out of place.

Finally you really need to watch these excellent videos which illustrate the main issues far better than I am able to put in words.

Shade Millith wrote:
Click and drag on the blue sphere to resize probes is not working properly, and often flat out doesn't.
Old System - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nkPohxMoYTI
New System - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQHtKE95VeE

Planet/Gate/Moon/Station icons still take preference over the icon for moving the probes. Leading to attempts to move the probes to fail. This is especially bad with the new system, because the new Planet/Gate/Moon/Station icons have a much larger hitbox than their graphic would suggest.
Old System - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vKbZkLXPniw
New System - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmfh4i3hty8

When selecting a gate or planet/moon on your overview, or in space, the old system selected the object in the map as well. This let you quickly identify and orientate yourself while combat probing, and knowing where to put the probes on the map. Especially useful for quickly placing probes on where a hostile warped to.
Old System - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xyCGElce_nw
New System - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iEujqHHi6N0

These are three BIG issues I ran into while running prober for a gang, and caused me to take a lot longer to get probes on target than the previous probe system.

Of smaller note, it's much harder to see Red results in space, with the icon being silly small and dark. Especially amongst the red sphere of D-Scan.



Thanks for the videos, super useful stuff. Where did that post come from btw? Did I just miss it in one of the threads? When you say "tidying up" icons, what do you mean exactly?

Not a problem at all. The videos where linked by Shade Millith in the general feedback thread and I think illustrate the three main issues that I and many others have very clearly.

https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=6145754#post6145754

In regards to tidying up the icons on the solar system map I will try to be more subjective:

I would suggest they need to look more unified, so for instance some of the icons are very large compared to others and very prominent, and there are many different colours and shapes, which I believe makes it look a little messy. I think signature and probe results need to be clearer and unified in appearance as in the original system, and also the celestial icons need to be a little more defined and smaller so that more can be seen on screen. At the moment I didn't find them useful for identifying the difference between planets and asteroid belts for example.
Rainbow Prism Colorblind
United Electro-Magnetic Federation
Business Alliance of Manufacturers and Miners
#145 - 2015-11-05 13:09:46 UTC
Just a small note here with the new scanning map, i know it have some know issues so I'm just going to skip asking about all that and go for the main problem i been having, or wish to have changed? it just a small detail but it bugs me at the moment.

Namely the D scan Bubble in the new mapper, why does it have to be red, Blue or green would be better to offset it from all the signatures or it get kinda bloated up when you try to aim the d scan toward a signature that some pray may be hiding at.

Also I would like some input from others if they would think a colour change? or custom colour setting? is a good/bad idea?

Just want a small answer so my brain would stop chew in the little things...

Fly less safe and fly fast! o7
Quiggle Queue
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#146 - 2015-11-05 13:20:10 UTC
Could you please add some background color to each probe scanner entry, as the old one had. It would make it alot easier to visually see the differences between the lines of text.
Lara Sunji
Doomheim
#147 - 2015-11-05 13:31:48 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Lara Sunji wrote:
Will the color ever look the same like the rest of my ui? It's really distracting looking at a black box.
http://s20.postimg.org/imde3l81p/hmm.jpg Pin enabled as well.


This is a defect. Should have been fixed yesterday but there was an issue with the port. Coming in a patch near you soon (not today)


\o/ Thanks! OK so all is good, I thought the fix was applied already but I honestly couldn't tell the difference. Good to know.
Hiljah
Slap Fight Martial Artists
#148 - 2015-11-05 13:52:37 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
Hiljah wrote:
Hi Goliath,
Thanks for the patience. Is there a way to turn the arrows on the cursor off? I'm sure other people might want just the arrows, but I only ever click on them accidentally.

Thank you,
Hiljah


Not that I know of, sorry! Sad


Thanks. Glad to hear you play and scan in a wormhole. Is there any chance the cursor could be changed? If not, another option would be to add axis locking hotkeys. For example, grab the cursor anywhere, hold x to move along x axis.

The use case for "destroy probes" is to quickly hide them from other people's d-scan, but I really don't think anyone uses this.
Malou Hashur
Enterprise Holdings
#149 - 2015-11-05 13:53:39 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
I believe the blog details how deeply we involved players in our testing and developing of the feature, and still are.


LAWL

CCP Philosophy ==>>

  1. If it works, break it. If it’s broken, leave it and break something else.

  2. Ignore all Forum comments that raise issues and concerns about our "features", and bring said "features" in anyway.
Whisperen
Resilience.
The Initiative.
#150 - 2015-11-05 14:30:22 UTC
Remaking the whole thing would be better this is a reskin.

The new interface it is ugly and slow even worse it uses the crummy beta map and that is also ugly and slow.

Auto scan is bad when i want my results to change ill push the button thanks your just asking for people to macro this.

Probes still spawn in a random spot rather then at your ship when they are launched.


The whole probing/scanning front end is just a slow ugly and most important of all a not fun system for the user or targets.
This whole move probes but be hard enough to use so others can scan and see them with their crummy scanner is a **** sandwich.
Hiljah
Slap Fight Martial Artists
#151 - 2015-11-05 14:39:55 UTC
Hiljah wrote:
CCP Goliath wrote:
Hiljah wrote:
Hi Goliath,
Thanks for the patience. Is there a way to turn the arrows on the cursor off? I'm sure other people might want just the arrows, but I only ever click on them accidentally.

Thank you,
Hiljah


Not that I know of, sorry! Sad


Thanks. Glad to hear you play and scan in a wormhole. Is there any chance the cursor could be changed? If not, another option would be to add axis locking hotkeys. For example, grab the cursor anywhere, hold x to move along x axis.

The use case for "destroy probes" is to quickly hide them from other people's d-scan, but I really don't think anyone uses this.



Also, if it's a question of resources, I'll dev and test both options for free.
Tipa Riot
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#152 - 2015-11-05 14:51:51 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:

It autoupdates for me? That's quite interesting. Could you submit a bug report following replicating the bug so I can see some logs please?

I find the latter point interesting too - a few people have asked for the map controls to be "popout" when the map goes into fullscreen - what do people think about that?

Will do once I'm back at my gaming PC (week after next). map controls popout, hmm interesting, would need to try it and probably stack it with something else. Also the current way in the old map is quite OK.

I'm my own NPC alt.
Yngvar ayShorn
Einheit X-6
#153 - 2015-11-05 15:05:33 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:

It autoupdates for me? That's quite interesting. Could you submit a bug report following replicating the bug so I can see some logs please?


No, it doesn't autoupdate when changing angle or range, like before. If I'm home, i'll submit a bug-Report.

+250.000 Skillpunkte für neue Accounts mit meinem Link!  -->> Klick mich <<-- -- Minmatar FactionWar --
CCP Goliath
C C P
C C P Alliance
#154 - 2015-11-05 15:27:12 UTC
We just pushed out some fixes for the scanner. You'll need to restart your clients (and launcher, if you're using the non-beta launcher) to get them if you're logged in at time of post.

Notes are:


Deleting custom filters now works as intended and does not delete the last filter in the list
Ignoring signatures will now correctly cause all other unignored signatures to appear in the solar system map
Cosmic signatures will all continue to display in the Solar System map if all were displaying and one is right clicked
Signature list will no longer snap to the top of the list after each scan/refresh
HUD is now visible on top of the Solar System map when in fullscreen mode
Bindable Zoom hotkeys now function correctly in the Solar System map
Probe Scanner filter hotkeys will now only apply if the window is active or if the mouse is held over it. As a result, Save Location will now work correctly when numbers 1-5 are used in the name of a location
Directional Scanner visualisation is now toggleable via the Solar System Map
Probe Scanner window now obeys transparency and pinning settings

CCP Goliath | QA Director | EVE Illuminati | @CCP_Goliath
Styphon the Black
Forced Euthanasia
#155 - 2015-11-05 15:56:06 UTC
Tipa Riot wrote:
To make sure this is not overlooked ... the new dscan does not automatically update the results when changing angle and range without scanning again. The current dscan does this auto-update, which significantly speeds up finding targets. So is this a unnoticed regression/bug or a planned nerf?

... also the option to toggle dscan lock should IMO be in the dscan window and not be part of the map controls, you need that option very often, so a hotkey would be handy.

But in general I prefer mouse control for scanning/flying, and the fewer clicks and shorter mouse path the better ... that's also why I'm not a friend of having the dscan button moved to the left. For you it may look cosmetic but for me it is a regression, because there is no equally convenient setup. Also on the top of my screen there are the collapsed chat windows, so I can't reach the map controls easily without moving the windows away ... small things maybe, but they add up to make the interface less usable.


You do know you can hot key the DScan button right?
Quiby San
#156 - 2015-11-05 16:37:48 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
We just pushed out some fixes for the scanner. You'll need to restart your clients (and launcher, if you're using the non-beta launcher) to get them if you're logged in at time of post.

Notes are:


Deleting custom filters now works as intended and does not delete the last filter in the list
Ignoring signatures will now correctly cause all other unignored signatures to appear in the solar system map
Cosmic signatures will all continue to display in the Solar System map if all were displaying and one is right clicked
Signature list will no longer snap to the top of the list after each scan/refresh
HUD is now visible on top of the Solar System map when in fullscreen mode
Bindable Zoom hotkeys now function correctly in the Solar System map
Probe Scanner filter hotkeys will now only apply if the window is active or if the mouse is held over it. As a result, Save Location will now work correctly when numbers 1-5 are used in the name of a location
Directional Scanner visualisation is now toggleable via the Solar System Map
Probe Scanner window now obeys transparency and pinning settings


THANK YOU so very much for the first fast and important adjustments :D
Great service :)
Lei Volund
Aliastra
Gallente Federation
#157 - 2015-11-05 16:44:43 UTC
these seem good, thank you, will continue testing
Rain Kaessinde
Liminal Cloudwatch
#158 - 2015-11-05 16:46:46 UTC
Please, please, get rid of the giant paddle-style location markers. They're more visually obstructive than the old brackets, their cursor-grabbing tar pit effect covers a wider area, and they're strangely offset from the actual locations they mark. It's also disconcerting to see them pop in and out when rotating the map, due to their excessive snap-together radius.

The stars might lie, but the numbers never do.
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#159 - 2015-11-05 17:16:04 UTC
CCP Goliath wrote:
I actually don't know what the use case of that button is. Answers on a postcard!


+------------------+
|  Getting probes  |
| off d-scan while |
| your hull is too |
|  full to recall  |
+------------------+
Masao Kurata
Perkone
Caldari State
#160 - 2015-11-05 17:24:53 UTC
Reposting some feedback I feel strongly about since the thread to post feedback in keeps changing:

CCP Goliath wrote:
iwannadig wrote:
When using 8 probe tight formation one probe is always at center of positioning cube making extremely hard to move it, because cursor always selects probe instead of the cube side. Probe selection must be optional with default set to OFF.


I recommend removing Probes from your Markers list in the top left of the window. You can still manipulate the probes as you could before.


Have you considered that if people are widely complaining about something and you yourself had to workaround it by changing your settings in a way that reduces functionality, it is in fact a genuine issue that needs to be addressed, not a problem with the user's settings? This would be completely resolved by giving probe controls absolute priority for hovering and clicking. Ignore all markers under the probe controls (still display them, but no tooltips or ability to select them),

On another note, I feel like the dscan camera lock could use a hotkey, and the menu bar is too thick. It's thicker than the gap that windows snap to near the edge of the screen to allow off camera brackets to show, so the title bars of other windows can get in the way of operating the menu in full screen mode.