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MASS-PROTEST AGAINST EXPLORING THE CHARACTER BAZAAR & SKILL TRADING

First post First post
Author
Doddy
Excidium.
#221 - 2015-11-04 16:16:49 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Railroad Cop wrote:
it has been built around benefiting new players


So long as they have real life cash to stump up in addition to the subscription fee, that's really going to bring hordes of new guys Roll


Rl cash, friends in game, donations or even just being very quick learners who are held back buy their sp not their isk income? Whatever it wil be easier for them than buying a whole character.


Why are you comparing it to buying a new character from the bazaar, most new guys don't buy characters. Many players are not even aware of the CB for a long time. Character bazaar is not in their face. TSPs will be front and centre, on the market in "affordable" chunks, if a new player doesn't have the money to buy plex to buy TSPs on top of their sub they will most likely know someone in game who does, that's pressure to compete straight away.

That you would propose that new bros will be getting donations from players in game if they cannot afford to plex for TSPs is just hilarious, even the big powerblocs won't be dropping these TSPs on new guys who could join the alliance, get the TSP and the *** off again.

These will be out of reach of new players until they serve time with a powerbloc, learn to make enough isk or bite the bullet and drop R/L cash on a plex. New players and those thinking about subscribing will perceive that if they want to keep up with other new players, it will cost them, their subscription and a plex or 2 for skillpoints.

It's not a good message to be sending out.


You are working in completely circular arguments. How can you on the one hand say new players don't use the bazaar, it is hidden away on forums peopled by bitter vets and then in the same breath argue that moving sp aquisition to the market wont benefit new players?

Why would they not be getting donations? new players are already given skills, isk, plex, ships, equipment, implants, why not TSPs? In the case of the big blocks these are entirely self funding in any case thanks to the buddy invite system, same goes for ayone invited by a friend already in game, a friend who will often be pointing people to the bazarr anyway. nothing will have changed except it will be in the open.

Given plex exist the "pressure to compete" as you imagine it exists already in every other thing on the market. Why is it any different that a player could possibly feel the need to plex some isk to buy sp instead of ships or implants? or a new char? (which will take many more plex). If they do it it is a far better long term investment than anything else they could spend thier money on. Far more likely though is that they will be spending thier excess isk rather than rl money on sp rather than on pointless bling and be far better off. There are guides and posts all over the place showing players how they can earn the isk to plex themselves into free play from a noob char, what makes you think new players can't earn the isk to buy some sp?

If plex didn't already exist or the charater bazarr didn't already exits there might be some merit to what you say but that horse bolted a long long time ago. Eve is already a game where isk can be bought with rl cash and where sp can be bought with isk, all ccp is doing is making it more streamlined and fair.
N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
#222 - 2015-11-04 16:45:37 UTC  |  Edited by: N00B-SAIB0T
I don't understand something. When CCP first announced this, there were pages and pages of raging in that thread related to the dev blog. What I'm seeing now is a complete reversal of opinion. What changed? Did people just step away for a bit, think about it, and see it in a more positive light?

Personally I like it. I have a character that's kind of all over the place, skill-wise. It was my first character so I wasted a lot of SP's experimenting with a lot of different activities that I regret now. I'm thinking I might just harvest that character to nothing and then biomass it.
Jarod Garamonde
Sons of Seyllin
Pirate Lords of War
#223 - 2015-11-04 17:15:13 UTC
Avvy wrote:

Unless they impose a restriction on trading sp, there is no limit.


Finally.... a valid concern. Thank you.

That moment when you realize the crazy lady with all the cats was right...

    [#savethelance]
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#224 - 2015-11-04 18:26:22 UTC
N00B-SAIB0T wrote:
I don't understand something. When CCP first announced this, there were pages and pages of raging in that thread related to the dev blog. What I'm seeing now is a complete reversal of opinion. What changed? Did people just step away for a bit, think about it, and see it in a more positive light?

Personally I like it. I have a character that's kind of all over the place, skill-wise. It was my first character so I wasted a lot of SP's experimenting with a lot of different activities that I regret now. I'm thinking I might just harvest that character to nothing and then biomass it.


You should probably read the dev blog thread, the topic is as controversial as it was when first suggested.
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#225 - 2015-11-04 19:06:29 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Insanity
Right now you can buy SP but you need to get a new character name along with it.
from what i heard about the changes,in the future it would just allow me to buy sp while keeping my character name.

i dont see how this is bad? Personally i cant wait to buy JF skills for my highsec alt

i think the only people who will complain are the ones who buy/resell characters for profit, who will no longer be able to count all the basic/redundant skills towards the sale price

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP

Kaivar Lancer
Doomheim
#226 - 2015-11-04 19:26:30 UTC
There's the old saying

Adapt or die
Terminal Insanity
KarmaFleet
Goonswarm Federation
#227 - 2015-11-04 19:32:34 UTC  |  Edited by: Terminal Insanity
Kaivar Lancer wrote:
There's the old saying

Adapt or die



lets just gut the entire overview and make targeting things impossible

got a complaint? "adapt or die"

"War declarations are never officially considered griefing and are not a bannable offense, and it has been repeatedly stated by the developers that the possibility for non-consensual PvP is an intended feature." - CCP

Delt0r Garsk
Shits N Giggles
#228 - 2015-11-04 20:10:14 UTC
Current suggested pricing puts 50k SP for a 50M character at more than 500M. And the 500k SP need to come from somewhere. My guess is the price will settle around 1B.

So yea its unlimited, in that saving less than *one* day of training will cost 1B. you really think people are going to pay that? Oh and where are all these skill points coming from? They have to come from real accounts.

AKA the scientist.

Death and Glory!

Well fun is also good.

strangescript
Solus Ventures
#229 - 2015-11-04 20:24:55 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Current suggested pricing puts 50k SP for a 50M character at more than 500M. And the 500k SP need to come from somewhere. My guess is the price will settle around 1B.

So yea its unlimited, in that saving less than *one* day of training will cost 1B. you really think people are going to pay that? Oh and where are all these skill points coming from? They have to come from real accounts.



This.

ISK is still the end all and be all in this game. It has to come from somewhere. The true sin was committed when you could sell PLEX for isk, but even then, there is only so much in circulation from agent missions and ratting. EVE is a game where everything has a price, and large ship fights are often equated to real USD value. Lets stop pretending.
Doddy
Excidium.
#230 - 2015-11-04 21:09:29 UTC
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Current suggested pricing puts 50k SP for a 50M character at more than 500M. And the 500k SP need to come from somewhere. My guess is the price will settle around 1B.

So yea its unlimited, in that saving less than *one* day of training will cost 1B. you really think people are going to pay that? Oh and where are all these skill points coming from? They have to come from real accounts.


Where does this suggested pricing come from btw?
Tyberius Franklin
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#231 - 2015-11-04 21:39:17 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Current suggested pricing puts 50k SP for a 50M character at more than 500M. And the 500k SP need to come from somewhere. My guess is the price will settle around 1B.

So yea its unlimited, in that saving less than *one* day of training will cost 1B. you really think people are going to pay that? Oh and where are all these skill points coming from? They have to come from real accounts.


Where does this suggested pricing come from btw?

Not sure, as proposed we have no AUR price, 200k SP return at 50m-80m SP, and an estimate of ~310mill for 500k SP in training time cost.

So in this scenario we're looking at 4x the return for up to ~200m less isk than what was stated.
N00B-SAIB0T
MK Financial
#232 - 2015-11-04 23:23:09 UTC
Doddy wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Current suggested pricing puts 50k SP for a 50M character at more than 500M. And the 500k SP need to come from somewhere. My guess is the price will settle around 1B.

So yea its unlimited, in that saving less than *one* day of training will cost 1B. you really think people are going to pay that? Oh and where are all these skill points coming from? They have to come from real accounts.


Where does this suggested pricing come from btw?


Possibly from the current Character Bazaar? Total cost of ISK divided by number of skill points by using a few sample characters.
Marsha Mallow
#233 - 2015-11-04 23:59:08 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
N00B-SAIB0T wrote:
I don't understand something. When CCP first announced this, there were pages and pages of raging in that thread related to the dev blog. What I'm seeing now is a complete reversal of opinion. What changed? Did people just step away for a bit, think about it, and see it in a more positive light?

Yes, it did need some time to sink in. The people who supported it immediately tend to be involved in discussions about new player retention, subs and some of the more radical lines of thought floating about. A lot of those who went in immediately with a hardcore 'NO' have a habit of doing that with any proposed change that might affect their view of the fundamentals of the game, or their personal interests. But when they try convert that into an argument to apply to new players or the rest of the community it falls down because it's really a personal opinion which is impossible to substantiate as better for the game. Plus the P2W defence isn't working when it's evident people are already attempting it and failing. Retention is ridiculously low at less than 10% and the PCU has visibly fallen - and players want these things fixing, even if it means change.

There were also some solid write ups in favour on en24 and TMC 1,2,3 (Arrendis absolutely nailed it imo) which explained the proposal and pointed out what the positive effects might be. See the comments section on all of those for more - tbh they were better than the devblog feedback thread which was mostly hilarious hairpulling. Attempts to start a 'NO' campaign failed on reddit because it's a young, normally open minded segment of the playerbase - actually it was quite funny watching people spectacularly misjudge the crowd then fall flat on their face trying to rile them. And this thread here - attempting to start a riot rather than just have a discussion was also a bit juvenile - so ye, we're not buying it. We can think for ourselves and reflect on whether we like it, and whether we think it'll be good going forward - and tbh most people are committed to improving the game for new players. Once people calm down, all they can really say is that they're uneasy about certain aspects (such as new players feeling they have to pay a lot at the start) or a uncertainty over the numbers. Topics like this are useful because some people are just uneasy and need more info rather than vehemently opposed.

N00B-SAIB0T wrote:
Doddy wrote:
Delt0r Garsk wrote:
Current suggested pricing puts 50k SP for a 50M character at more than 500M. And the 500k SP need to come from somewhere. My guess is the price will settle around 1B.

So yea its unlimited, in that saving less than *one* day of training will cost 1B. you really think people are going to pay that? Oh and where are all these skill points coming from? They have to come from real accounts.


Where does this suggested pricing come from btw?


Possibly from the current Character Bazaar? Total cost of ISK divided by number of skill points by using a few sample characters.

The character bazaar isn't an ideal area to get calculations for the value of SP as it stands. Focused alts can go for as much as a bill ISK per 1mill SP - although we're talking 20b SP max here and these are highly specialised alts with expensive skillbooks injected (think Titan sitters/starters). There's major fluctuations from 20-80m SP in terms of ISK per SP - most sell at a loss if you take into account current plex prices - although some rarer types (leadership alts) can command very high prices. But there's an assumption that a lot of those accounts were subbed, rather than plexed, so the SP to ISK conversion rate is quite variable. Prices are set by demand/rarity based upon certain factors - specialisation, name, ingame history - rather than a pure calculation. There's a jump in prices from 80-120m SP again, and another at 120m SP plus - at 150m SP+ those really are vanity purchases so they can sell for ridiculous amounts. But still nowhere near to 1b per 1m SP.

Actually the mid-high SP characters currently sold on the bazaar may be worth more if this change is implemented, but it depends upon how many people liquidate their SP then try sell it in an early market. They might actually crash it at first - so some may choose to wait out an early market to get more ISK. Again, hard to predict how that'll work out if people start regularly farming their own alts for sellable SP.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Alavaria Fera
GoonWaffe
#234 - 2015-11-05 02:48:38 UTC
Doddy wrote:
You are working in completely circular arguments. How can you on the one hand say new players don't use the bazaar, it is hidden away on forums peopled by bitter vets and then in the same breath argue that moving sp aquisition to the market wont benefit new players?

Why would they not be getting donations? new players are already given skills, isk, plex, ships, equipment, implants, why not TSPs? In the case of the big blocks these are entirely self funding in any case thanks to the buddy invite system, same goes for ayone invited by a friend already in game, a friend who will often be pointing people to the bazarr anyway. nothing will have changed except it will be in the open.

Oh yeah.

The problem is the ones most likely to be handed the equivalent of billions of isk worth of skillpoints (in addition to just billions of isk) are ones in large groups, which means they are evil.

I will probably start trying to get this into the hands of newbies as the first bunch of core skills are no fun to train and you know we love the Celestis.

Triggered by: Wars of Sovless Agression, Bending the Knee, Twisting the Knife, Eating Sov Wheaties, Bombless Bombers, Fizzlesov, Interceptor Fleets, Running Away, GhostTime Vuln, Renters, Bombs, Bubbles ?

Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#235 - 2015-11-05 04:45:07 UTC

I love Arrendis, but neither her article nor Materall's or Gorski's for that matter really looks at the issue in depth.


I've posted the list of abuses. I'll do it again.

1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts
2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player
3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to.
4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3?
5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs.
6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs.
7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT
8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs
9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit.

Everyone arguing for it is doing it so they can consolidate accounts and characters. I have not seen a single argument for the benefit of the longevity of the game.



Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Marsha Mallow
#236 - 2015-11-05 07:22:07 UTC  |  Edited by: Marsha Mallow
Sibyyl wrote:
I love Arrendis, but neither her article nor Materall's or Gorski's for that matter really looks at the issue in depth.

Early opinion pieces are useful to stop a hysterical reaction from the playerbase. People have been incredibly squawly the last year or so and those of us who were round for Incarna are starting to recognise how bad a player riot on that scale might be if unleashed again. But I take your point and a more detailed analysis probably would be a decent step going forward. It might be better if that comes from CCP if they're following various discussions and have some metrics in the background they can refer to.

Just to answer some of your points:

1. Anyone who tries to farm SP will have to either pay a sub or Plex their accounts. Just as character farmers do now. Talking from experience here, I have 100+ accounts at the moment although most are unsubbed because my PC is fried. This type of farming is an ISK conversion process and it's tied to Plex prices quite closely. If Plex prices are higher than you can actually sell an alt for you will make a loss. Character prices on the bazaar lag behind Plex in real time by a few months and have to be deliberately manipulated upwards to compensate. Also, anyone attempting an SP farm will be in direct competition with every other player in the game - so if it's massively profitable, everyone will jump on it and crash the market.
2. The proposed numbers are heavily slanted in favour of new players. Rich older players attempting to boost the SP on a character with more than 80m SP will have to inject 10x the Skill Packets that a character under 5m SP will. That's a significant tax.
3. Large alliances can afford SRP for their line members now where small alliances can't. I'd class that as more of a PTW feature than SP. Even then large alliances would struggle to subsidise thousands of players with more than a few thousand additional SP per month. It's not as though large blocs can afford to pay their members now to sub their accounts so I wouldn't overestimate their monthly income streams.
4. Winning an AT match has nothing to do with skillpoints, sorry. I'm really not seeing how this topic even ties in, and honestly there aren't enough alliances signing upto the AT anyway. Not because of lack of SP, but because it requires massive commitment to practice matches which some groups reject if it impedes their activities on TQ for several weeks.
5. They could do this anyway to sell them on the bazaar or return to play.
6. Not sure why EvE quitters would return to game to cash in on SPs? If they were so determined to RMT they could easily sell their characters through gold sites.
7. RMT's a concern in general - but as stated before, if all player characters have some value if sold illegally, what difference do skill packets make to the equation? I'm assuming you mean people will sell the SP then try directly RMT the ISK out. That's really a risk for the security team to assess and I'm not sure any of us are qualified to speculate on what the impact might be.
8. These are separate concerns. Players in highsec have the ability to turn friendly fire off on their corp if awoxing is a concern. Elsewhere there's always a risk, but normally they get one shot and then get kicked, and player groups can replace ships lost without a huge fuss. Lowsec and nullsec groups run background checks on characters to try stop dodgy alts getting in - but tbf these checks only go so far because of the excessive use of alts and the ability to create multiple identities anyway. If anyone engages in this then recycles their alt to evade consequences, they'd be taking a massive hit in terms of cost over time that might make the practice less economical. Any recruiter with a brain will spot newly reformed alts so if anything recycling repeatedly would become a major flag and might impede peoples ability to join player groups.
9. I think the SP scaling works to counter that somewhat. 0-5m really is where the pain spot is for newer players. Educating players about the limits in the value of SP needs to be considered anyway as there's already a problem with the system.

Sibyyl wrote:
Everyone arguing for it is doing it so they can consolidate accounts and characters. I have not seen a single argument for the benefit of the longevity of the game.

I'm not. I've run my accounts for so long I'd be reluctant to part with even the ones I don't use. Since I have 4 with 150m SP+ and 4 with 100 plus a few more mains with less gutting them would mean losing massive amounts of SP in tax to reconfigure them into new alts. I can't speak for anyone else, but I suspect it's not just me with an attachment to characters I've had for a long time, so it's hard to judge exactly how many would cannibalise high SP alts. Certainly they might do with lower SP alts and move it across to their mains, and if that means they can cut their number of accounts I can't see a problem? We've been encouraged to run silly numbers of accounts and for people reliant on Plex, under conditions where Plexes are increasing in value sharply there's a risk that players who are dependent upon them will simply quit altogether.

Since I bought alts early on because of frustration with the early months and the half dozen people I got to play the game never even subbed because 'why pay to train for 6 months before you can even play' there is very much an argument that it'll benefit newer players. Sorry, but I've made it abundantly clear that newer players are likely to benefit the most from this, so you're either completely misreading my remarks or assuming a selfish agenda that just isn't there. Actually in a lot of ways I see this as a form of FTP to correct problems with the sub model but haven't seen anyone else follow through on that idea.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Fillyblunts
Doomheim
#237 - 2015-11-05 07:54:28 UTC
LMAO. Seems to me that you are one of the minority that hates change because its change.
Lysdahl
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#238 - 2015-11-06 12:36:30 UTC
Someone is butthurt about not being able to make billions upon billions on the char bazaar :) I like the changes
Doddy
Excidium.
#239 - 2015-11-06 21:53:45 UTC
Sibyyl wrote:

I love Arrendis, but neither her article nor Materall's or Gorski's for that matter really looks at the issue in depth.


I've posted the list of abuses. I'll do it again.

1. SP mules making passive income on countless accounts
2. People blowing away the max 2700 SP per hour limit. Now there is no upper limit so characters could gain as much SP as they want per hour, because sky's the limit for an IRL rich player
3. Large alliances will be able to afford SP packets for their rookie line members. Small alliance won't be able to.
4. Instant gratification for Alliance Tournament participation. Cash in SPs and enlist as a contender (maybe Elise considers to be a good thing). Can you see how this will be abused when combined with #3?
5. People un-biomassing old characters to cash in on SPs.
6. EVE quitters subscribing for 1 month to cash in on SPs.
7. RMT RMT RMT RMT RMT
8. Awoxers, corp thieves, spies recycled with only a 20% hit in SPs
9. It will perpetuate the myth that SPs make you win EVE to people who will fork out money to chase this myth. This will be one of the biggest exploits that rookies will face coming into EVE, and when they realize SPs don't make them good players they will quit.

Everyone arguing for it is doing it so they can consolidate accounts and characters. I have not seen a single argument for the benefit of the longevity of the game.





Some pretty gigantic leaps you are taking.

1) How is there passive income? To train you need to plex, so you could just sell the plex in the first place and be better off than having to spend irl money on making TSPs.

2) That can only happen if CCP fails to put any caps in, and if people trully wanted to spend tens of thousands of dollars on very little gain (around $4k for 20m sp once you get to 80mil, who is going to do that?), and assuming they couldn't just buy a char in the bazarr with for much less in the first place.

3) Size of alliance hardly relates to wealth in eve. Even if it did it hardly matters, the large alliance has more rookies to share the TSPs out amongst, its all equal. All those noobs benefitting and you think its a bad thing?

4) Like this doesn't already happen with the bazarr....? It will be much more expensive for people to do it with TSPs. Pretty much the only impact I see is regaining lost T3 cruiser skill between games. Who cares?

5) Why is that a problem? Maybe the isk they make will keep them in the game a while longer?

6) Why is that a problem? Some money put into the game and maybe a few retained players, sounds like a positive reaosn to me....

7) Um different to now how?

8) Does that really matter? They just sold chars on before anyway so there is really no difference, except some unsuspecting person doesn't get an awoxer char from the bazarr.

9) How?
Marsha Mallow
#240 - 2015-11-06 22:06:55 UTC
Lysdahl wrote:
Someone is butthurt about not being able to make billions upon billions on the char bazaar :) I like the changes

I'm not, and the comments I'm seeing from other character traders in public look positive towards this too. The rest are keeping their mouths shut which suggests they're either rage posting in opposition from alts or whipping out the calculators and rubbing their grubby little paws together in glee. If this goes through players sat on lots of alts for trading purposes might cash out well. Or lose massively. They wouldn't be in this market if they didn't enjoy risky types of speculation - it's always been fairly volatile - so they're probably enjoying themselves either way.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day