These forums have been archived and are now read-only.

The new forums are live and can be found at https://forums.eveonline.com/

EVE General Discussion

 
  • Topic is locked indefinitely.
 

MASS-PROTEST AGAINST EXPLORING THE CHARACTER BAZAAR & SKILL TRADING

First post First post
Author
ISD Decoy
ISD Community Communications Liaisons
ISD Alliance
#81 - 2015-10-18 22:40:08 UTC
I have removed a rant/troll/off-topic post and those quoting them.

Quote:
2. Be respectful toward others at all times.

The purpose of the EVE Online forums is to provide a platform for exchange of ideas, and a venue for the discussion of EVE Online. Occasionally there will be conflicts that arise when people voice opinions. Forum users are expected to be courteous when disagreeing with others.

3. Ranting is prohibited.

A rant is a post that is often filled with angry and counterproductive comments. A free exchange of ideas is essential to building a strong sense of community and is helpful in development of the game and community. Rants are disruptive, and incite flaming and trolling. Please post your thoughts in a concise and clear manner while avoiding going off on rambling tangents.

5. Trolling is prohibited.

Trolling is a defined as a post that is deliberately designed for the purpose of angering and insulting other players in an attempt to incite retaliation or an emotional response. Posts of this nature are disruptive, often abusive, and do not contribute to the sense of community that CCP promote.

27. Off-topic posting is prohibited.

Off-topic posting is permitted within reason, as sometimes a single comment may color or lighten the tone of discussion. However, excessive posting of off-topic remarks in an attempt to derail a thread may result in the thread being locked, or a forum warning being issued to the off-topic poster.

ISD Decoy

Captain

Community Communication Liaisons (CCLs)

Interstellar Services Department

Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#82 - 2015-10-18 22:41:38 UTC
Thanks
Eli Stan
Center for Advanced Studies
Gallente Federation
#83 - 2015-10-18 22:43:08 UTC
Steve Ronuken wrote:
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
Steve Ronuken wrote:
To clarify on my own reaction: I'm not a fan, because it leads to the feeling that people 'must' buy skill points to keep their character competitive.
This I don't really understand, Steve.

Experienced players will buy SP only if they need it (for a specific purpose) and sell the SP they don't need.

Newer players will know that the option exists, and that it's relatively expensive. The normal reaction I'd expect is 'hmmm ok, that's a lot of ISK... do I really need this?' answer: 'not necessarily, it depends, it's your choice to make. for 12 years players got by without it!' 'ok, I'll learn a little bit more about the game first. nice that we at least have the option now'.

Or something along those lines.



'They expect me to pay how much to catch up?' is the reaction I have concerns about


Is that any different from the current "They want 20 million SP minimum to join their Corp and those characters are how much on the bazaar?"
Raffael Ramirez
Alcohol Fuelled
#84 - 2015-10-18 23:35:30 UTC
I am on the fence on this, I can see the possibility for it to be good but also see dangers why it would backfire.

The possibilities:

Making it easier for new players to "catch up" (imaginary or real) is a big issue for the new players I assume (it was for me in 2003 seeing that some players had a couple of month on me). To make new players more employable and enable them to do more things in a shorter duration is a great idea (no one enjoys waiting for core skills so you can fit a gun on a ship).
So this could make players stick around longer because they can actually enjoy more parts of the game quicker and find their spot in the eve universe. Also ever wanted to fly this faction ship that needs a race you haven't trained yet - go for it now you can.


The danger:

Consider this: The month you spend training a skill mean that when you are a perfect pilot you know the mechanics and rules of whatever you want to do with your new shiny. I am fearful that this change will make EVE even more a quick rush for short term residence. Buy a skill pack buy some Plex - have billions and fully trained char. Die endlessly because eve is complex and takes time to learn - leave with a bitter taste since you paid real money and didn't get the rush you wanted. Write negative things about eve being expensive and not worth it move on to World of Spaceships.

The problem with these and other recent changes are that they seem to be rushed to fix a problem and not implemented to fine tune a system or even fit into the overall philosophy/lore.

Character Bazaar was brought in to give people a legal way to swap chars (since the dawn of eve it happened anyway). They brought in PLEX to combat RMTs - now people sell PLEX for real cash (the irony) and people leave eve because PLEX prices are too high so they can't play "for free".
I really hate everything to do with micro transactions and p2w and I guess CCP sees the potential earnings and wants to be part of the money printing machines by making eve approachable by these player demographics. I cannot fault them for trying to get more players into eve and make money to keep eve running, although I find it personally distasteful.

CCP Falcon posted that EVE it is a harsh dangerous cold environment , I honestly don't feel it anymore. Most achievements I set out to accomplish mean nothing anymore. Risk vs Reward is heavily in the reward area at the moment. What took you month to accumulate years ago takes you hours now.

The proposed change would make EVE even "easier" in a way and gets players less invested . It turns it from a long term hobby into a FPS - just one you suck at even if you pay real cash to level up.

So make eve more difficult and less complex and balance the risk again .



tl:dr

good idea : to keep newer players interested and enable them to "catch up".

bad idea : might breed a FPS like culture, might be abused, makes it more p2w.

rant:

Eve lost its hardcore nature long ago I would like to have it back Pirate.








Marsha Mallow
#85 - 2015-10-18 23:39:58 UTC
Raffael Ramirez wrote:
Eve lost its hardcore nature long ago I would like to have it back Pirate.

Could you expand on that a bit, out of interest? I think it probably is on topic.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Demerius Xenocratus
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#86 - 2015-10-19 00:00:02 UTC
Who cares? The meta-game is already so heavily dependent on alts that we're deep into P2W territory and you already have wealthy vets cycling through toons via the character bazaar. Might as well make it official.

Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#87 - 2015-10-19 00:32:32 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
The normal reaction I'd expect is 'hmmm ok, that's a lot of ISK... do I really need this?' answer: 'not necessarily, it depends, it's your choice to make. for 12 years players got by without it!' 'ok, I'll learn a little bit more about the game first. nice that we at least have the option now'.

Or something along those lines.


and yet when many ppl have raised that very point as an objection to skillpoint buying (not me) it has been roundly put down as a poor basis for not developing the game. So clearly there are already many people who don't fit into the above description. Like it or not, some new guys will make use of this and the ones who don't *might* feel pressured to follow suit or feel left behind, THAT is the potential issue here.
Raffael Ramirez
Alcohol Fuelled
#88 - 2015-10-19 00:50:42 UTC
Marsha Mallow wrote:
Raffael Ramirez wrote:
Eve lost its hardcore nature long ago I would like to have it back Pirate.

Could you expand on that a bit, out of interest? I think it probably is on topic.


I thought about it and it is really a million little things that contribute to that feelings , I think the easiest way to convey it is to tell you a rundown of a normal day in the harsh cold eve.

There are only frigs cruisers and battleships, by the time you had the cash to afford one you had the skills to fly one.
Only Empire and 0.0 space existed and when you wanted to earn money you had to go low sec or 0.0. , high sec only kept you barely afloat since mining yields were laughable and agent mission rewards non existent (except the implants).
I ran agent missions , every 10th mission would give you an implant which you had to sell in the trade channel to be able to afford a cruiser hull (that was a big deal back then).

So you had a cruiser to earn cash and another one to do things (I ratted in low sec/corp activities), anyway getting blown up was basically a daily occurrence (some bugs, mostly players). We had a blackbird bpo and we sold it to the resident pirates at lower prices for blue standing (very much in line with the lore). Blue standing back then only meant that the frequency of them blowing you up slightly decreases but that was life (you really can't rely on pirates *shakes fist at Lilan Kahn*).
As a corp we had to mine minerals to keep production going that meant all hands on deck mining (in blackbirds/moas and a geddon) for hours. If anyone wanted a battleship we had to mine for weeks to get the low ends and then go ninja mining in 0.0 space to get mega and zydrine. So back then that was 8 j into 0.0 space with cruisers and a hauler past 2 gate camps (no bubbles then) multiple times (hauling ore was really inefficient).

So in the end you had to give the gate campers some share or you could only go when your 'friendly' pirates were camping.
The whole ops usually destroyed a couple of cruisers (Rats were nasty/gate camps) but you had enough to build a battleship.

So as you see said battleship was a corp effort and it was worth more than just minerals , we all pitched in (there was a point in joining a corp!)

When the corp lost a ship , we all suffered, so we played smart and learned every time we were blown up. (still was frustrating , and you wouldn't log in for a week ,then get back and start mining again)

This is how I started playing eve and if you compare it to now , it lost most of its cold harsh feeling. When you undocked you basically assumed you wouldn't come back therefore you never flew a ship you couldn't afford to loose.

Anyway now you sell 2 plex to start off with and buy all the fancy ships you want , soon you will be able to fly them from day 1 and the whole learning process of what it is eve will be gone. The complete disconnection from the "work" you have to put in to own something in this game only contributes to the general feeling that PvP is something that happens to other ppl and its basically an exploit that has to be fixed. Back then we had players actually enjoying missions and mining (money and efficiency not even close to what it is now) but they knew the rules an watched local. You had wars in empire which were fought because corps stood for something (now everybody hops around or decs random ppl).

There were arch enemies like : pirates vs Celestial Apoc. and Mo0 vs everybody which made for good stories even though the numbers of players actually involved was so very low.

So yeah cannot really convey a feeling , but I hope I was able to explain some things that changed drastically.

Eve got infinitely more complex but overall a lot easier, i personally think it is the wrong way around.


For completions sake: EVE was a completely broken game back then full of half finished features and broken buttons and exploits. It was heavily on the risk side of things, bugs (or features as they called it) killed your ship as often as players would and GMs would never NEVER give you a ship back.

But I would say it was very close to CCP Falcons vision of eve, sadly most players will never have a chance to play it.



tl;dr

hard to get stuff , lots of work - frustrating when you lost it but at least you had some connection to your assets and learned from the loss.












Marsha Mallow
#89 - 2015-10-19 01:09:52 UTC
Thanks for writing that up P

I've heard similar before and it's awkward because parts of that sounds great. Some horrendous. The people who played that early iteration will always have that backstory where others might not, and I can understand them being concerned at it's removal. Also, it feels like Plex might have undermined the majority of that? So the SP thing is more of a relic rather than a lynchpin to the original core game - but it's one people remember the most because it was a frustrating mechanic and hasn't changed as much as everything else. Hard to separate them out but SP training both acts as a goal/reward scheme early on - which is a good thing. Except where it impedes gameplay so you're waiting for skills to complete to actually play.

Just zoning in on this:
Raffael Ramirez wrote:
hard to get stuff , lots of work - frustrating when you lost it but at least you had some connection to your assets and learned from the loss

That sounds like something that should be heavily incorporated into the NPE in some way without being really punitive. Might be worth a think about how to put some of these aspects back in - because I agree they are essential, and they have clearly been lost at some point based upon the attitude of newer players towards accepting loss mechanics and objective based gameplay. Seems like the main goals now have shifted too far towards supers and kb stat epeen rather than narrative driven gameplay. This really is one for the vets to answer tbh, because that core principle has to be retained in some way, and I'm not sure later players grasp how harsh it was for early starters. Although it might be more a matter of injecting it back in using new methods, if that makes sense.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Divine Entervention
Doomheim
#90 - 2015-10-19 02:11:37 UTC
I need a list of all CSM's who've yet to openly endorse this new feature and a list of the one's who've openly spoke against it.

Thanks
Bobb Bobbington
Tribal Liberation Force
Minmatar Republic
#91 - 2015-10-19 02:27:34 UTC
Somebody get a cross, some holy oil, a wooden stake, a few silver bullets, and maybe a priest, and just kill this stupid thread already.

This is a signature.

It has a 25m signature.

No it's not a cosmic signature.

Probably.

Btw my corp's recruiting.

atif09
Ltd Angel
#92 - 2015-10-19 02:41:42 UTC
the linear cap on sp should start falling off after 100m xp

the minimal amount drainable should be 5 mil sp instead of 500k
Herzog Wolfhammer
Sigma Special Tactics Group
#93 - 2015-10-19 02:42:33 UTC
This idea does not have the air of being born out of desperation for more players.

I think that this is a progression of long skill ques and being able to run more than one que per account. And these are things that result in LESS account, but more $$ coming in to maintain them. So if there are less active accounts the income may still be static.

Players can move SP around alts too - something that's also good.

Looks like nothing more than flexibility moves. Time still goes into creating SP. So the time investment aspect is not being removed.

Bittervets can continue to be bitter and noobs can get a boost in training up against being instapwned.


Bring back DEEEEP Space!

VaL Iscariot
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Caldari State
#94 - 2015-10-19 06:38:20 UTC
the difference betweem the character bazare and what was PROPOSED is whag exactly? theyre both player controlled. its not ccp is selling skill points. Players are. I see nothing differnt going on here any differnt than whats been going on for years. its just more streamlined.
Avanda Redblade
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#95 - 2015-10-19 06:40:36 UTC
Gully Alex Foyle wrote:
...but the answer 'roughly as much as the others paid to accumulate those SP in the first place' would feel reasonable, no?
No.

When paying a month's game subscription I would say the main part is for the TIME played that month. That main part has been used up by the initial player. A smaller part could be considered towards SP investment. You could see this in the Character Bazaar where character sale prices tried to follow subs at 100% rate until it became obvious that they were not worth that much. The market settled at a much more sensible rate.

If the game picks up a lot though, and becomes the game to be seen in again, maybe the 100% will return?
Mephiztopheleze
Laphroaig Inc.
#96 - 2015-10-19 06:47:39 UTC
Can shooting monuments in HiSec please give Suspect Status?

So those of us who don't mind the whole tradeable SP idea can harvest a few more tears.....

Occasional Resident Newbie Correspondent for TMC: http://themittani.com/search/site/mephiztopheleze

This is my Forum Main. My Combat Alt is sambo Inkura

Ciba Lexlulu
Stay Frosty.
A Band Apart.
#97 - 2015-10-19 07:41:02 UTC  |  Edited by: Ciba Lexlulu
Freelancer117 wrote:
Time for another MASS-PROTEST, after Incarna greed is good debalce, CCP Games still has not learned the lesson X

source: http://steamcommunity.com/sharedfiles/filedetails/?id=536826276


Cya you in Amarr, on the Amarr VIII (Oris) - Emperor Family Academy station undock, shooting the monument !

Regards, a Freelancer


PS: Time to make stand against this Bullshit all over again, like we did in 2011 and made the Company change policy.
https://ardentdefense.wordpress.com/2011/06/24/eve-jita-mass-protest/

CCP Seagull wrote:

Quote:
#51 - 2014-05-12 17:11:55 UTC
Freelancer117 wrote:


May I remind CCPgames about this dev blog:

http://community.eveonline.com/news/dev-blogs/accord-reached-at-ccps-special-summit/

"We have expressed our deep concern about potential grey areas that the introduction of virtual goods permits, and CCP has made a commitment to discuss any proposals that might fall into these grey areas in detail with CSM at the earliest possible stage."

Hope that awareness has not dissipated over the years.

Regards, a Freelancer



Nothing has changed in our approach since that blog - the same principles still apply, and we will still discuss all new plans with the CSM.


source: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4583354#post4583354



Nope. If you bother to spend sometimes thinking about it - this change is good for EvE. May not be good for your ego, but good for EvE in general. Essentially, skills trading is about monetizing skills which players can already do (via Chararcter Bazaar) - except the threshold now is much lower. You don't have to be space-rich dudes with billions of ISK to do it; minimum ISK purchase in Character Bazaar is far higher vs SP trading. This will lower the barrier to entry for new players to start enjoying EvE. Hence may not be good for your space e-peen, but good for the game. Suck it up.

And if you plan to unsub - can I have your stuffs and SP?
Lan Wang
Federal Navy Academy
Gallente Federation
#98 - 2015-10-19 10:17:28 UTC
im not allowed in highsec because people shoot me Cry

Domination Nephilim - Angel Cartel

Calm down miner. As you pointed out, people think they can get away with stuff they would not in rl... Like for example illegal mining... - Ima Wreckyou*

Mr Epeen
It's All About Me
#99 - 2015-10-19 17:18:26 UTC
Lan Wang wrote:
im not allowed in highsec because people shoot me Cry
Go to Amarr anyway. Be a content creator for all the fearful dweebs that never leave that system, let alone high sec.

Who knows, you may actually convert some of them into PVPers if you paint a target on your back.

Take one for the team, Lan!

Mr Epeen Cool
Tau Cabalander
Retirement Retreat
Working Stiffs
#100 - 2015-10-19 17:48:49 UTC
Erm ...

Protesting the invitation for player feedback on an idea before making a change?

Does the OP want CCP to stop asking for player feedback?

Roll