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MASS-PROTEST AGAINST EXPLORING THE CHARACTER BAZAAR & SKILL TRADING

First post First post
Author
Sibyyl
Garoun Investment Bank
Gallente Federation
#261 - 2015-11-10 17:13:46 UTC

Rain6637 wrote:
The SP consumption mechanic is hardly motivating to me, either. It's just too inefficient. But I can imagine there are players who will need cyno alts in a hurry, or have other low SP requirements that aren't as lossy.


I love you too.

What you do with this feature isn't the concern. The concern is how this is a yet another tool, like SRP, to disincentivize smaller groups. The Blood Harvest event is a good indicator of what players are willing to do for SP. Unlike that event though, SP trading allows any large alliance to provide that SP faucet without any danger of PVP or external threats.

Providing a mechanic that is vulnerable to Malcanis's Law right out of the gate goes against the design philosophy CCP would like us to believe they have been pursuing lately.

One-sided perfectly skilled fleet comps give us gudfites how?

Joffy Aulx-Gao for CSM. Fix links and OGB. Ban stabs from plexes. Fulfill karmic justice.

Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#262 - 2015-11-11 07:56:40 UTC  |  Edited by: Rain6637
Sib you should know I've personally run perfectly skilled and max boosted gangs for quite some time. I don't see anything wrong with it, and I think it's just good preparation.

I'm not sure our expectations of the skill booster mechanic are the same. I wholeheartedly expect it will replace learning implants, moving a buy-and-forget implant system to an active, high-maintenance system. Annoying, but understandable, for the increased requirement of playing the game, which I don't do much of.

I don't think this is detrimental to a particular size group. Players are free to buy (with real money) or play harder to gain SP just like any other player.

As for me, even with healthy SRP and, I dunno, 1.25 Billion SP spread across ten mains, I still regularly purchase six-packs of PLEX because I can't be assed. This point seems to convolute the distinction between SP packs being good or bad for small or large groups, but I think what it really means is there's no distinction to be made.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#263 - 2015-11-11 13:36:14 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
I wholeheartedly expect it will replace learning implants, moving a buy-and-forget implant system to an active, high-maintenance system. Annoying, but understandable, for the increased requirement of playing the game, which I don't do much of.

I don't think this is detrimental to a particular size group. Players are free to buy (with real money) or play harder to gain SP just like any other player.


The thing I find problematic with this is that there's no scaling options for those who cannot afford high investment of R/L cash or time. With implants one can choose a set of +5s if you are rich in isk or R/L cash. If you are not you can choose +4s that give 4/5ths the speed boost for 1/5 th cost or even +3s and son on. There will be no TSPs with 4/5ths the SPs for 1/5th the cost, it's either spend a lot of isk or R/L cash or miss out... this is a problem. There will be a distinct separation of haves and have nots that implants do not cause.

Implants of course have their own issues like risk aversion due to potential loss, but there are better ways to sort that out than creating a new rich / poor class structure within EvE.

Quote:
because I can't be assed.


Just pointing out that if one is to use UK colloquialisms one ought to use the UK spelling which is "arsed" Blink
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#264 - 2015-11-11 20:22:00 UTC
If a player doesn't have rl cash or time, what's really going on, and should they be playing a video game and should we make considerations for them? Who are you talking about, exactly? Is that even a demographic?
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#265 - 2015-11-11 20:45:04 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
Rain6637 wrote:
If a player doesn't have rl cash or time, what's really going on, and should they be playing a video game and should we make considerations for them? Who are you talking about, exactly? Is that even a demographic?


This game has been going since 2003, many of the longest serving players may have started families now... less time for sure, Spare money ? Maybe, maybe not, pretty sure that CCP still want their monthly sub though.

You also forget that this game isn't just played in affluent countries, even the sub could be viewed as expensive when considering the average monthly income of some countries where EvE players reside, do we still want them to play ? I think we do.

There are most certainly many other reasons why someone may have little time or little spare cash over and above the monthly sub not everyone who plays this game is a sub 30 US residing middleclass space nerd.

I fear that your post was either incredibly ignorant or just a fancy way of trying to get #nopoors to fly as a legitimate argument. Not sure which of those is worse TBH.
Zakks
CSR NAVY
Citizen's Star Republic
#266 - 2015-11-11 20:54:36 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
If a player doesn't have rl cash or time, what's really going on, and should they be playing a video game and should we make considerations for them? Who are you talking about, exactly? Is that even a demographic?


This game has been going since 2003, many of the longest serving players may have started families now... less time for sure, Spare money ? Maybe, maybe not, pretty sure that CCP still want their monthly sub though.

You also forget that this game isn't just played in affluent countries, even the sub could be viewed as expensive when considering the average monthly income of some countries where EvE players reside, do we still want them to play ? I think we do.

There are most certainly many other reasons why someone may have little time or little spare cash over and above the monthly sub not everyone who plays this game is a sub 30 US residing middleclass space nerd.

I fear that your post was either incredibly ignorant or just a fancy way of trying to get #nopoors to fly as a legitimate argument. Not sure which of those is worse TBH.


I would be a prime candidate for these, but I hate PTW schemes in any game and will not use them. Whether I can afford it or not is irrelevant to my gaming preferences. RL wealth should not = game achievement.
Veraca Darmazaf
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#267 - 2015-11-12 00:48:56 UTC
Zakks wrote:
I would be a prime candidate for these, but I hate PTW schemes in any game and will not use them. Whether I can afford it or not is irrelevant to my gaming preferences. RL wealth should not = game achievement.

PTW is one of those rather abused terms, and this is an example. At most this system would be Pay to Advance Faster and even that isn't the best fit because this would be something you could get with ISK. Grinding gold or the equivalent to advance faster is hardly a new thing for MMO's.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#268 - 2015-11-12 00:55:12 UTC
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:
Grinding gold or the equivalent to advance faster is hardly a new thing for MMO's.


So this is what is has come to ..."well every other MMO does it" Roll
Veraca Darmazaf
Ministry of War
Amarr Empire
#269 - 2015-11-12 02:06:23 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Veraca Darmazaf wrote:
Grinding gold or the equivalent to advance faster is hardly a new thing for MMO's.


So this is what is has come to ..."well every other MMO does it" Roll

No, that in and of itself isn't good or bad. I'm just saying this is closer to an XP booster that can be bought with in or out of game currency than any sort of super gear that can only be bought with real cash.

I don't know enough to say it's good or bad, but I don't believe it to be a big deal either way. I will admit I'll probably make some use of it when it comes in.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#270 - 2015-11-12 03:03:32 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
If a player doesn't have rl cash or time, what's really going on, and should they be playing a video game and should we make considerations for them? Who are you talking about, exactly? Is that even a demographic?


This game has been going since 2003, many of the longest serving players may have started families now... less time for sure, Spare money ? Maybe, maybe not, pretty sure that CCP still want their monthly sub though.

You also forget that this game isn't just played in affluent countries, even the sub could be viewed as expensive when considering the average monthly income of some countries where EvE players reside, do we still want them to play ? I think we do.

There are most certainly many other reasons why someone may have little time or little spare cash over and above the monthly sub not everyone who plays this game is a sub 30 US residing middleclass space nerd.

I fear that your post was either incredibly ignorant or just a fancy way of trying to get #nopoors to fly as a legitimate argument. Not sure which of those is worse TBH.

I think what you're looking for is called "free to play." Either free, or a one-time cost like Diablo 3. I partly agree with you, that EVE could be free to play and I personally could get the same experience from it as I do now. The players and our interaction with each other is touted as a selling point of this game, so you could ask why there is a monthly subscription. But right now in this thread the question is why should this real money avenue for an advantage exist.

I can understand your expectation of the game being equally accessible to players unable to pay for extras like access to more SP. I just think it's acceptable for a video game with a profit motive.

The premise of a video game, in my opinion, is escapism and passing the time. Not necessarily productive, in fact very unlikely to be productive. But escapism isn't evil. People of all walks of life do it in different forms, whether it's movies, or books, or music, or TV. EVE is one of those things.

I didn't mean to come off as callous to upset you or anything like that. Entertainment has a real money cost, with things like books on the low end, and movies at the cinema at the higher end (two tickets and goodies from the concession stand at the theater will run you $50+ in the United States). Then there's EVE.

Over the number of hours we spend playing EVE in a month, I'd say the value of a subscription compared to the cost of a 2-hour movie is very high. Less than 25% of the money cost and ten times the replay. If you start replacing entertainment activities in your life with EVE, you start spending a lot less money, and it is safer and healthier depending on what you might otherwise do for entertainment.

For me that used to mean driving a lot and eating out and quite a bit of mixed alcohol. But anyway. EVE can be a very good idea in a lot of ways, one of them being money cost.

And then there's this thing in the game that you can buy or not buy, that helps you improve your character's stats a bit faster than baseline. I think it's understandable that I would rather have the option than lose it for the sake of players who might not be able to afford it.

I also think the "but poors" battle is already lost. A player can already buy a complete character for money but, more significantly, a player can subscribe and field more than one character at a time. In that case, no matter what you do with one character, it will be outpaced by multiple characters.

In my case, in terms of SP, my mains are training as you would expect. Some of them have +5 implant sets, a few don't, including this character. Their average rate of SP is probably around 2500 / hour. One character can train at 2750 an hour (or such), while the characters available to me are training at a collective rate of twenty five thousand SP per hour.

I checked just now and did the math, and the total SP of my gang is 1.46 Billion SP. I pay with annuals, spending ten times the real money subscription cost of a single account player. Nevermind this neural boost for AUR, players like myself have been paying to win for years.

The logic was simple: I could spec this character in a T1 battleship and officer fit a Vindicator for full gank to reach 2,100 DPS. Or I can start two more characters who fly their own T1 battleships and collectively reach 2,100 DPS. That was my thought process while starting in EVE and ratting in Curse with a Drake. All I wanted was to break rat tanks.

If it's PVP, the logic is the same. More characters provides an advantage.

Fast forward several years from starting out in Curse shooting Angel Cartel rats, to this configuration of my gang. http://i.imgur.com/nJOxxbi.jpg or this one http://i.imgur.com/gmX1Ftpl.jpg or this one http://i.imgur.com/KIgn44Cl.jpg (if a character of mine is in a ship, you can bet it has perfect skills for that ship).

So here we are in this thread about adding 125,000 SP to a character for ISK or AUR (or whatever the cost will be). It's kind of moot, in my opinion.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#271 - 2015-11-12 04:10:15 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
Rain6637 wrote:
Portmanteau wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
If a player doesn't have rl cash or time, what's really going on, and should they be playing a video game and should we make considerations for them? Who are you talking about, exactly? Is that even a demographic?


This game has been going since 2003, many of the longest serving players may have started families now... less time for sure, Spare money ? Maybe, maybe not, pretty sure that CCP still want their monthly sub though.

You also forget that this game isn't just played in affluent countries, even the sub could be viewed as expensive when considering the average monthly income of some countries where EvE players reside, do we still want them to play ? I think we do.

There are most certainly many other reasons why someone may have little time or little spare cash over and above the monthly sub not everyone who plays this game is a sub 30 US residing middleclass space nerd.

I fear that your post was either incredibly ignorant or just a fancy way of trying to get #nopoors to fly as a legitimate argument. Not sure which of those is worse TBH.

I think what you're looking for is called "free to play." Either free, or a one-time cost like Diablo 3. I partly agree with you, that EVE could be free to play and I personally could get the same experience from it as I do now. The players and our interaction with each other is touted as a selling point of this game, so you could ask why there is a monthly subscription. But right now in this thread the question is why should this real money avenue for an advantage exist.

I can understand your expectation of the game being equally accessible to players unable to pay for extras like access to more SP. I just think it's acceptable for a video game with a profit motive.

The premise of a video game, in my opinion, is escapism and passing the time. Not necessarily productive, in fact very unlikely to be productive. But escapism isn't evil. People of all walks of life do it in different forms, whether it's movies, or books, or music, or TV. EVE is one of those things.

I didn't mean to come off as callous to upset you or anything like that. Entertainment has a real money cost, with things like books on the low end, and movies at the cinema at the higher end (two tickets and goodies from the concession stand at the theater will run you $50+ in the United States). Then there's EVE.

Over the number of hours we spend playing EVE in a month, I'd say the value of a subscription compared to the cost of a 2-hour movie is very high. Less than 25% of the money cost and ten times the replay. If you start replacing entertainment activities in your life with EVE, you start spending a lot less money, and it is safer and healthier depending on what you might otherwise do for entertainment.

For me that used to mean driving a lot and eating out and quite a bit of mixed alcohol. But anyway. EVE can be a very good idea in a lot of ways, one of them being money cost.

And then there's this thing in the game that you can buy or not buy, that helps you improve your character's stats a bit faster than baseline. I think it's understandable that I would rather have the option than lose it for the sake of players who might not be able to afford it.

I also think the "but poors" battle is already lost. A player can already buy a complete character for money but, more significantly, a player can subscribe and field more than one character at a time. In that case, no matter what you do with one character, it will be outpaced by multiple characters.

In my case, in terms of SP, my mains are training as you would expect. Some of them have +5 implant sets, a few don't, including this character. Their average rate of SP is probably around 2500 / hour. One character can train at 2750 an hour (or such), while the characters available to me are training at a collective rate of twenty five thousand SP per hour.

I checked just now and did the math, and the total SP of my gang is 1.46 Billion SP. I pay with annuals, spending ten times the real money subscription cost of a single account player. Nevermind this neural boost for AUR, players like myself have been paying to win for years.

The logic was simple: I could spec this character in a T1 battleship and officer fit a Vindicator for full gank to reach 2,100 DPS. Or I can start two more characters who fly their own T1 battleships and collectively reach 2,100 DPS. That was my thought process while starting in EVE and ratting in Curse with a Drake. All I wanted was to break rat tanks.

If it's PVP, the logic is the same. More characters provides an advantage.

Fast forward several years from starting out in Curse shooting Angel Cartel rats, to this configuration of my gang. http://i.imgur.com/nJOxxbi.jpg or this one http://i.imgur.com/gmX1Ftpl.jpg or this one http://i.imgur.com/KIgn44Cl.jpg (if a character of mine is in a ship, you can bet it has perfect skills for that ship).

So here we are in this thread about adding 125,000 SP to a character for ISK or AUR (or whatever the cost will be). It's kind of moot, in my opinion.


You and I are so completely different I see no point in wasting any more energy talking to you, of course I'm not sure you'll notice as most of your rebuttal seems to consist of you talking about yourself and how many subscriptions you pay for. One of the most egocentric posts I've ever seen on EvE-O ... well played.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#272 - 2015-11-12 04:19:23 UTC
Quattras Peione
Caldari Provisions
Caldari State
#273 - 2015-11-12 05:39:35 UTC
I fall firmly into the camp of players not likely to use this mechanic. That said, I'm not adamantly opposed to it either.

As has been stated, the bazaar already exists. This just offers an alternative: instead of buying a 100m SP toon that you're not attached to, you can make a toon that you are attached to competitive, albeit at a greater cost. That's a pretty zero-sum situation, so no opposition on my part.

The other thing that seems to be overlooked here is that it will mitigate, but not eliminate, the effectiveness of local as an intel tool. Yes, you can still see how many are in system with you (in empire space ofc), and who they are. But now you have no way of knowing what their capabilities are based solely on character age. Is that six-month character a newbro just passing through? Or is he also highly skilled and specced into the hard counter to what you're flying? Better stay on your toes.

Dr. Quattras Alvar Peione

No, I'm not that kind of doctor.

Dyllan Ma'tar
The Scope
Gallente Federation
#274 - 2015-11-12 07:07:57 UTC  |  Edited by: Dyllan Ma'tar
They are finally going to let us eat other characters, and eat them piece by piece on top of that. Not only am I not angry, I am so happy. So so very happy. Finally long pig in a pod will be brought to New Eden.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#275 - 2015-11-12 07:16:25 UTC
Rain6637 wrote:
Grr? Grr goons?

No it was definitely levelled squarely at your completely missing the point post from within an egocentric vacuum... your goon affiliation has nothing to do with it.
Portmanteau
Iron Krosz
#276 - 2015-11-12 07:18:28 UTC  |  Edited by: Portmanteau
Dyllan Ma'tar wrote:
They are finally going to let us eat other characters, and eat them piece by piece on top of that. Not only am I not angry, I am so happy. So so very happy. Finally long pig in a pod will be brought to New Eden.

Ok i laughed at this Smile so many cannibal corpse songs spring to mind.
Marsha Mallow
#277 - 2015-11-12 07:28:09 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
most of your rebuttal seems to consist of you talking about yourself and how many subscriptions you pay for. One of the most egocentric posts I've ever seen on EvE-O ... well played.

Writing up your own background in terms of accounts/subs isn't intended as an exercise in epeen flexing, and it is useful to evaluate where the person is coming from in relation to this SP discussion. I'm like Rain with over a bill SP across my accounts. I probably won't use this feature but I support it for other players. It will allow them similar options to us in terms of characters without having to purchase characters whose names they dislike or a time investment of nearly a decade passive SP grinding. That's not to say they'lll pay less or end up playing for a shorter period, they'll just have the option to configure their alts in a more customisable way. In that sense the mechanic levels the playing field for those who can afford it (we've been paying by instalments where they might pay in shorter chunks) and for those who have more time/skill at ingame ISK making the option will also be there. The traditional sub model with passive SP acquisition will also be there for people with neither RL funds or massive amounts of time ingame, and I'd question this assumption that this option will make them the 'losers' in such a market.

The link that was inferred but not made explicit in Rain's post is that if you consider the ability to use real money to run multiple accounts or to buy/train more characters as a form of P2W, it's already in place. Just because some players can afford to run a dozen alts and have billions of SP does not make them more successful ingame than others. You might well be able to solo multibox certain types of PVE, or bring strong support alts to combat ops, but that doesn't translate as success without significant investment into learning the mechanics, finding a good group to play with, and playing smart.

Regarding the 'no poors' argument it seems a legit concern that new players may feel they have to pay more early on to be able to play. But that pressure is already there in reality. There's already a problem where new players feel they need to run multiple accounts in order to specialise their training and get the most from their characters. You see new players being advised to do this in multiple areas (rookie chat, help, new citizens, reddit, ingame channels). Usually they have already made the choice to run a second or third account so the advice being given out is how/what to specialise in. But you rarely see older players commenting that multiple accounts are excessive and might not be necessary, because there's a tacit acceptance that multiple accounts are required to keep up with everyone else or to optimise the SP system.

There's also a core of new players who sell plex early on to fund their ingame activities. Again, this question pops up frequently in new player channels (how do I sell/redeem my plex?) so anyone involved with new players has to be aware that there's a split between the haves/have nots already.

There are also frequent questions about 'how can I make enough ISK to plex my accounts' from new players, suggesting people are joining the game with the assumption that they can FTP from the beginning, which is actually fairly grindy and arguably an unattractive playstyle. One of the worst types of discussion you tend to see is when a new player rolls a second 'ISK making' account to earn money for their main combat alt and to keep both plexed. It's committing to significant amounts of grind from the get-go whilst not really having an understanding of how to make ISK. Occasionally older players will advise to not bother with a second account and just pay the sub in cash, but it's clearly unheeded advice, and you have to ask why people recognise so early on that multiple accounts are essential? If 2-3 accounts are the norm people are already being ripped off in terms of subs or being expected to grind for 20 odd hours a month for plex.

Players who are dependent upon plexes to run multiple accounts that they committed to during a stage when they don't really understand SP or how to make ISK are likely to suffer from massive burnout as a result of choices they make in the early stages. And once someone has invested significant amounts of time training and refining multiple characters, they're likely to get attached to those alts and see them as necessary to their game experience, which may be accelerating attrition rates. Sensibly you might expect people to simply drop their extra subs during periods they can't afford to fund them and just keep their main running. I get the impression people see their alts as essential to gameplay, and if they hit the point they can't afford some, they just drop all of their subs and stop playing altogether. It's not an ideal scenario.

I'd personally prefer a system in which new players understand that they can purchase SP but that there are limits to its usefulness. Being able to extract will allow them to undo previous skilltraining mistakes. But the one thing people aren't really focusing on much when discussing this is that it might be possible to break this multi account dependence from the beginning. By encouraging people to focus on one account which they can try multiple ingame activities on, with a view to specialising later, it allows them chance to play and understand ISK making systems before they get locked into an onerous account configuration. And for what it's worth, plenty of people are willing to pay a modest chunk for a new game when they first pick it up - particularly if they know ongoing the expansions are free. £50-£100 upfront might work out a lot more economical than running multiple accounts, or £10 monthly sub/£10 spent on SP boosts.

Ripard Teg > For the morons in the room:

Sweets > U can dd my face any day

Zakks
CSR NAVY
Citizen's Star Republic
#278 - 2015-11-12 07:50:52 UTC  |  Edited by: Zakks
The problem I see is that it is a risk-free boost to SP without time-constraint, to benefit those who would rather pay to improve their stats than the existing methods. Buying a character from the bazaar carries possible risks (who knows for sure if the history is an awoxer or red-list recipient), and certainly implants carry risk. The recent Blood Raider event is a great example of the risks to obtain a small boost to SP.

I won't bemoan this if it goes live, but it doesn't seem like a good thing for this game. Golden Bullets imho...

edit.
As for the alts comparison, having more isn't the same as having betterBlink
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#279 - 2015-11-12 07:51:28 UTC
Portmanteau wrote:
Rain6637 wrote:
Grr? Grr goons?

No it was definitely levelled squarely at your completely missing the point post from within an egocentric vacuum... your goon affiliation has nothing to do with it.

I tried to explain my take on the situation, and talking about myself is the only way to do that.
Rain6637
Simulacra and Simulation
Dracarys.
#280 - 2015-11-12 07:59:14 UTC
I could talk about other people's gameplay and experiences, but that's second-hand and hearsay.